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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: School me
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Author Topic: School me  (Read 1278 times)
Gunsotsu
Recruit

Posts: 27

« on: July 13, 2017, 06:36:40 PM »

Member is not an aircrew member, does not hold a current or expired aeronautical rating, and is not engaged in aircraft operation. Member is manning a recruiting booth. Member claims wing king authorized them to wear FDU.

Paragraph 2.8 in 39-1 requires the wing king to adhere to the standards established by that manual and only authorizes him/her the ability to prescribe things like shoulder cords, etc per para 9.4.

Now, am I missing something. Or is said member way wrong?
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Levi Lockling
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320
Unit: AZ-085

« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 06:40:46 PM »

I'd say wrong, or wanted to look cool.

Only reason an unqualified member should wear one is if they are actively training(Like, in an airplane) to become qualified. I wouldn't even be mad if he were qualified and decided to wear one, it's that he's not qualified.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

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1stLt Levi H. Lockling
SrA, USAF, 1A851J
Charlie flight, NBB 2013
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 890
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 06:57:13 PM »

He's wrong, unless there's an approved 39-1 supplement that you've not looked at for your Wing. Check that, and call the WG/CC to check before acting.


What is he wearing on the nameplate? If he's wearing wings/devices he's not authorized, then I'd bring him before a board of review to determine if he stays in CAP. If you check with the Wing/CC and find that he's lied to you, then I'd bring him before a BOR. This is conduct unbecoming.


People want to act like posers, its a human "hero worship"/fantasy thing, like mall cops pretending they're SOF operators. Even the best can fall prey to these issues (thinking Boorda, sadly); I had a student at USNTPS one morning (a civilian engineer) who I saw was actually wearing CAP wings on his flight suit. When I asked him why, he admitted he wasn't a CAP pilot or even in CAP but he wanted wings like the actual USN/USMC/USAF test pilot trainees he was sitting with. He didn't want to be the only one wearing a bag with no wings (pretty sad, and amazing in an actual school). He took them off, and got a plain leather name patch.


The challenge is to get our teammates to understand (cognitively and emotionally) that this isn't dress up, it isn't Halloween or some SF Con costume contest, and to have them conform with the program. We've had our share of stolen valor scandals and misbehavior and it needs to be stopped whenever we see it.


V/r
Spam
(With his own FDU and USAF style hung up, probably permanently, due to weight and balance)  :-\


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Gunsotsu
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 07:17:39 PM »

What is he wearing on the nameplate?

Ground team badge.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 890
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 07:23:58 PM »

What is he wearing on the nameplate?

Ground team badge.

Yeah.. right...

Is this real time? As in, he's doing this right now?
He needs to get off the stage, pronto.

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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 661
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 07:37:17 PM »

"Member claims..." is not the same as "Member presented reg supplement/letter/memo/bar napkin from Wing Commander..."
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Levi Lockling
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320
Unit: AZ-085

« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 08:11:59 PM »

What is he wearing on the nameplate?

Ground team badge.
Is this Alabama or Texas? I have seen no less than 2 "Wing-less" people wearing just a GT badge on the flight suit on YKYICW's Facebook page.
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1stLt Levi H. Lockling
SrA, USAF, 1A851J
Charlie flight, NBB 2013
KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2017, 04:06:16 PM »

"Member claims..." is not the same as "Member presented reg supplement/letter/memo/bar napkin from Wing Commander..."

"The commander told me..." followed by something the commander did not actually say is usually quickly followed- if CAP is anything at all like it's big brother)- by an actual statement from aforementioned commander involving the words "Come in, have a seat, make yourself comfortable and take that rank off".
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I have complete faith in the continued absurdity of what ever is going on.
Gunsotsu
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 05:31:17 PM »

Part of the problem is the individual in question is a wing-level officer. So attempts to buck this up the chain to address it have been met with "the wing king told me I could, so tough. (paraphrase)" There are no wing supplements to 39-1 and even if there were they'd be in conflict with 39-1, as Wing CC has no authority to authorize that sort of thing per the CAPM.

So, there's a wing-level officer, posting images all over social media, out of proper uniform, and wing is doing nothing about it.

See my frustration? (I know, something, something, dead horses)
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Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,046
Unit: SI

« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 05:40:24 PM »

Part of the problem is the individual in question is a wing-level officer. So attempts to buck this up the chain to address it have been met with "the wing king told me I could, so tough. (paraphrase)" There are no wing supplements to 39-1 and even if there were they'd be in conflict with 39-1, as Wing CC has no authority to authorize that sort of thing per the CAPM.

So, there's a wing-level officer, posting images all over social media, out of proper uniform, and wing is doing nothing about it.

See my frustration? (I know, something, something, dead horses)

Take picture. Forward to PAO/PIO and your Commander. Request guidance in the most polite language you can use.
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1st Lt Thompson
Seasoned Member

Posts: 351
Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 05:59:25 PM »

What color is this flight suit? Is it the sage green flight suit, or the blue cotton utility coveralls? I don't have access to 39-1 but aren't the blue coveralls authorized for non-flight activities? I seem to remember seeing a ground team member in them some time back at a SAREX.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,046
Unit: SI

« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 06:07:18 PM »

8.1.1. Authorized FDU.

8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional
clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation,
preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The
FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical
rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and
Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot,
observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on
days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and
CFDU wear is appropriate.
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1st Lt Thompson
Seasoned Member

Posts: 351
Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 06:35:52 PM »

So being that he has a ground team rating, he technically can "have" a flight suit, but may only wear it at flight activities. I know we've sent pilots in flight suits to conduct AE at schools, and that technically isn't a flying activity. For recruiting, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I'm sure they were planning the event, and someone mentioned they should have someone in a flight suit, and he raised his hand and said he would wear one. Not necessarily within regs, but not really a reason to drag him in front of a review board and drum him out of the program either.

Was he wearing it correctly? Was he accurately representing the Civil Air Patrol? If the only gripe is that he was wearing a flight suit but not actually flying, I wouldn't worry too much. There are other matters that are much more pressing.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,838

« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2017, 07:00:58 PM »

A ground team rating is not "technically" an aircrew rating.

The issue is members are prohibited from wearing a flight suit, period, unless they have an aircrew
rating, and if they do, and it's the USAF green, they have to have their wings on it.

This changed in 2014.  Before that there was no such prescription.

It's not a matter of "not flying", it's a matter of "not allowed".  AE schools, training status, etc., etc., offers no
relief.   The only waiver would be an NHQ-approved wing-supplement.

The immediate BS about the Wing CC allowing it means he was likely well aware of the "new" (3-year old) rules.

And yes, that means new members, even pilots, should by the required uniforms, not a flightsuit, until
they are qualified.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 07:11:08 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

tribalelder
Forum Regular

Posts: 112

« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2017, 07:57:12 PM »

If the nomex FDU was about nomex for safety, everybody getting in the little plane would be encouraged, if not required, to wear nomex--for safety benefits. 

But we don't REQUIRE the aircrews to wear a nomex FDU or CFDU.  So FDU/CFDU aren't about safety. or do some of our client agencies require our A/c's wear nomex for OSHA-ish concerns?

FDU/CFDU might only be about appealing to pilot vanity, which is okay--we need 'em.  We don't grow our own pilots--we have to recruit and retain them.  The rest of our E/S posts we can probably legitimately grow/train.

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WE ARE HERE ON CAPTALK BECAUSE WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE PROGRAM. We may not always agree and we should not always agree.  One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different and differently. 
Since we care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,838

« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 08:08:13 PM »

FDU/CFDU might only be about appealing to pilot vanity, which is okay--we need 'em.  We don't grow our own pilots--we have to recruit and retain them.  The rest of our E/S posts we can probably legitimately grow/train.

No argument there, and the prohibition has made it harder to get new cadets into O-rides, so repeal away!
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

1st Lt Thompson
Seasoned Member

Posts: 351
Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 08:43:17 PM »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but so far in this post, we know that a member of Wing Staff is wearing an FDU at a recruiting event, and he/she may or may not have Wing King approval, but we haven't talked with the Wing King yet, but instead have resorted to skipping the chain of command and going straight to CapTalk. Until said Wing King has been notified, all of our comments are pretty much pointless.

If the member is, as you say, posting photos all over social media featuring him/her in said unauthorized FDU, then unless the Wing King and PAO are living under a rock, they are aware of the situation. For all we know, it's already been addressed, and this thread is nothing but an unnecessary rant. Or, nothing was said because the Wing King actually did say it was ok, or it's simply not on his list of fires to put out today.

I'm all for making sure everyone is going by regs, but having a member wear an FDU to a recruiting event isn't exactly a reason to toss a rope over a tall tree and string him/her up.

In an ever shrinking organization filled with volunteers who wear multiple hats, many of which spend more time working for CAP than at their day jobs or with their families, I think we're making a huge deal out of something that very well could have been completely authorized.

I say stick with your chain of command. If you've spoken with the Wing King and he did nothing, or didn't decide to let you in on how he handled the situation since you're not in this member's direct chain of command, then that's his business. Send it up the chain and then carry on with the other business at hand.


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1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,586
Unit: of issue

« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 09:43:38 PM »

"You're not wrong if you're wearing the uniform your commander specifies"

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
1st Lt Thompson
Seasoned Member

Posts: 351
Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2017, 09:50:54 AM »

The OP messaged me privately, and gave me some more insight that couldn't be shared here without publicly outing a fellow CAP Officer. Based on new info, here are my final thoughts on this matter.

The event was a Wing level event.....recruiting at an Air Show, on the flight line, giving kids tours of a CAP aircraft. I'm sure it was discussed at a recent staff meeting, and someone probably suggested "whoever gives the plane tours should dress the part" and everyone agreed. I think any reasonable person would. I know it's technically against regs to wear an FDU when not flying, but a person giving tours of a plane, on a flight line, at an air show, wouldn't look out of place in an FDU. If it was discussed at a staff meeting with the Wing King present, then I can believe that he/she gave approval, making it a correct uniform for the occasion. As NIN pointed out, "you're not wrong if you're wearing the uniform your commander specifies."

Now if this was never discussed, and the Wing King never gave approval, and the offending Officer just decided to do it because it matched what he/she would be doing at the air show, I'm pretty sure the Wing King has seen the photos and just doesn't care that much, or has already addressed it privately. We'll never know.

On the other side of the conversation, this person is very well known in the PA community, and a cursory look at his/her 101 shows no aeronautical training whatsoever. Being that this was a Wing level activity, with Cadets from multiple Squadrons in attendance, an extra effort should have been made to be in accordance with regs, as an example to those Cadets. Also, it's a big PA faux pas to post photos of members wearing incorrect uniforms, and this individual should have known better. If this Wing is anything like my Wing, about 3/4 of the staff have earned wings of some sort, so if they did want to have someone in a flight suit at the air show, they could have easily found someone who already had one and had earned the right to wear it.

Either way, I think we're giving this matter more attention than it needs. If the Wing King didn't authorize the FDU, I'm sure someone has already tapped this person on the shoulder and told them not to do it again.

*edited to correct a spelling error
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,838

« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2017, 10:35:25 AM »

I know it's technically against regs to wear an FDU when not flying, but a person giving tours of a plane, on a flight line, at an air show, wouldn't look out of place in an FDU. If it was discussed at a staff meeting with the Wing King present, then I can believe that he/she gave approval, making it a correct uniform for the occasion. As NIN pointed out, "you're not wrong if you're wearing the uniform your commander specifies."

Again, if this discussion has any point, it has to be on the issue and not something unrelated. This has nothing to do with whether the activity included
flying, even if it >did< this person apparently would not be allowed to wear a flight suit.

Based on the OP's actual question, and all information made available here, this person neither has, nor ever had, a flight qual of any kind,
which means that as of 2014 a flight suit is no longer a valid option for him, regardless of the activity, flying or otherwise., and the Wing CC
does not have the authority to waive that absent an approved supplement to 39-1 - we just did this dance for cadets with a resounding "negatory".

"You're not wrong if you're wearing the uniform your commander specifies"

You are if the wear of that uniform violates a regulation, unless the assertion is that a Commander
can just waive whatever reg they choose.  Can a guy with a beard wear Mess Dress for uniformity?

I say the above granting that uniform regs are ignored all the way up to the National level, but this
entire thread is academic from that perspective, so there you are...
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: School me
 


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