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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: No more Airman's Attic access in some areas
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Author Topic: No more Airman's Attic access in some areas  (Read 3815 times)
Eclipse
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« on: July 12, 2017, 07:10:43 PM »

Word is running through the various message channels that CAP is being formally
barred from access to the Airmans Attic on some bases dues to them being emptied out by CAP people,
and / or (apparently) some bad behavior by CAP members and parents.

So there you go.

No AAFES.

Virtually no MCSS.

Now no Airmans Attic.

I've also heard some anecdotal squawking that some encampments are insisting on ABUs for uniformity
(which is well outside the authority of an encampment CC), which is exacerbating the situation and
forcing more people, especially cadets, into buying commercial stuff, including the pink knockoffs coming from VG.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2017, 08:41:26 PM »

I know at the CAWG Encampment this year at least 75-80% of the participants, Cadre and Student, were in ABU's. And there was no requirement to wear ABU's either.
Pretty much the same thing happened in the 80's when we transitioned to BDU's.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2017, 09:42:35 PM »

CAWG's experiences, across the board, are rarely indicative of what the rest of CAP is doing, though
in this case, considering that CAWG was a significant, if not the significant beneficiary of usable uniforms
from AAFES, not to mention has some seven USAF bases, plus other facilities, there should be a fair amount of
ABUs around.

I would also hazard a big chunk of CEAP cash went to cadets attending CAWG encampments as well.

Frankly, I've actually been fairly well impressed at how many activities, especially encampments and NCSAs,
posted photos that still show ABUs to be in the minority.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kwe1009
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 09:55:33 PM »

I can confirm that in at least 2 states this is absolutely the case.  In both bases you can thank parents (some are CAP members) who literally yelled at the staff because they did not have the uniform sizes they needed.

I do know of 1 NCSA that did specifically require ABUs.
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PHall
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 11:13:33 PM »

CAWG's experiences, across the board, are rarely indicative of what the rest of CAP is doing, though
in this case, considering that CAWG was a significant, if not the significant beneficiary of usable uniforms
from AAFES, not to mention has some seven USAF bases, plus other facilities, there should be a fair amount of
ABUs around.

I would also hazard a big chunk of CEAP cash went to cadets attending CAWG encampments as well.

Frankly, I've actually been fairly well impressed at how many activities, especially encampments and NCSAs,
posted photos that still show ABUs to be in the minority.


Actually, no. There were some cadets who took advantage of CEAP funds, but not many. We have a pretty strong scholarship program here in CAWG and the cadets who asked for financial assistance were usually handled "in-house".
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2017, 11:39:17 PM »

Do those scholarships include money for uniforms and travel?
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Slim
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2017, 03:22:06 AM »

CAP should have never had access to the AA in the first place.  CAP members aren't eligible to use USO facilities in the first place, let alone be in there cleaning them out of ABUs.  At W-P, anyone who entered the USO building that wasn't known by name/face to the volunteer at the reception counter had to show an ID to prove eligibility to use the building.  If some of them let CAP members into the facility for that reason, they should be accepting some of the blame for it.

I just spent a week in the USO building at Wright-Patt for GLRSC.  One of the first things they told us during the welcome brief was to keep our mitts off the ABUs in the Airman's Attic.  We were also told that the TV/game room and snack bar were off limits to us.  Basically, the only places we were allowed to be was the large multipurpose room they held the classes in, the four classrooms upstairs we used for seminar breakouts, and the rest rooms.

At the time, there were plenty of ABUs coming into the AA, the dropoff was right outside the main classroom, and plenty more upstairs that had been cleaned, processed and put out on the racks.  I find it hard to believe that that particular AA went from "Those ABUs are for Air Force airmen who need them" to "Sorry AB Schmuckatelli, we don't have any ABUs in stock because the ingrates from CAP took them all..." in a little over a month.
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Slim
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2017, 10:43:48 AM »

CAP should have never had access to the AA in the first place.  CAP members aren't eligible to use USO facilities in the first place, let alone be in there cleaning them out of ABUs.  At W-P, anyone who entered the USO building that wasn't known by name/face to the volunteer at the reception counter had to show an ID to prove eligibility to use the building.  If some of them let CAP members into the facility for that reason, they should be accepting some of the blame for it.

Wait, so the Airman's Attic isn't just another name for "base thrift store?"   Is this more like "one is Goodwill, the other is the Salvation Army" or something?

The Airman's Attic is run by the USO? Is that common at every base?

Is the Airman's Attic a true "Thrift Store" where you pay for things (and the proceeds keep one or more family support groups/MWR things afloat) or are the items in there free?

If the items are free, and the intent is that Joe Snuffy A1C who just accidentally blew out his ABU pants climbing down from atop the C-17 can go and get a "new-ish" used pair for free and not have to shell out $41.97 (not that I know how much ABU pants cost!) at Clothing Sales before he gets his first uniform allowance, thats a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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lordmonar
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2017, 11:18:37 AM »

CAP should have never had access to the AA in the first place.  CAP members aren't eligible to use USO facilities in the first place, let alone be in there cleaning them out of ABUs.  At W-P, anyone who entered the USO building that wasn't known by name/face to the volunteer at the reception counter had to show an ID to prove eligibility to use the building.  If some of them let CAP members into the facility for that reason, they should be accepting some of the blame for it.

Wait, so the Airman's Attic isn't just another name for "base thrift store?"   Is this more like "one is Goodwill, the other is the Salvation Army" or something?

The Airman's Attic is run by the USO? Is that common at every base?
No and No.

Quote
Is the Airman's Attic a true "Thrift Store" where you pay for things (and the proceeds keep one or more family support groups/MWR things afloat) or are the items in there free?
The Airman's Attic and the Thrift Store are often co-located.  They are often run by the Officers Spouse or NCO Spouse Club.  I have never heard of a base with an active USO facility....but they may exist.

Quote
If the items are free, and the intent is that Joe Snuffy A1C who just accidentally blew out his ABU pants climbing down from atop the C-17 can go and get a "new-ish" used pair for free and not have to shell out $41.97 (not that I know how much ABU pants cost!) at Clothing Sales before he gets his first uniform allowance, thats a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
That is exactly what the Airman's Attic is.   They ask people to donate their old uniforms to so Airman Snuffy can save a buck.

As for Eclipse's point.....as with all things.......if you abuse a privilege you are going to loose it.    Also the actions as Base X.....do not necessarily make policy air force wide.

And finally a point about the USO.........those guys can be sticks in the mud.   The USO runs a small shop at El Paso for the out bound troops.....and they were very rude to us contractors who were also deploying.     And hey!  That's their right.   They are not an official part of the USAF or Military and they can set what ever rules they want.

/Rant
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
zippity
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2017, 11:29:56 AM »

VAWG members were disinvited from directly using the Airman's Attic at Langley because of bad behavior on the part of entitled parents and cadets. Access now goes through Wing Logistics, so the volunteers don't have to put up with nonsense they're not paid for.
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Nor'easter
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Posts: 391

« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 11:32:32 AM »

...I have never heard of a base with an active USO facility....but they may exist.

Pensacola is the only one I know of, but they have nothing to do with the thrift shop there.
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With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right...
A.Member
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2017, 11:32:58 AM »

I agree with the earlier comment that CAP never should've had access to Airmans Attic.  So, I don't see this as a privilege revoked at all...rather access by CAP members as an abuse of privilege.

That said, to lordmonar's point what happens somewhere does not make it policy across the board.  Every base has it's own policies/procedures which can change with every command.  Some are more open and supportive, others may not be.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 11:40:24 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2017, 01:10:45 PM »

I agree with the earlier comment that CAP never should've had access to Airmans Attic. 

I'm gonna have to agree - whenever people talked about "Airmans Attic" my presumption was this was a thrift store
where people paid for items like any Goodwill, etc.

Googling around clearly shows that these are intended for younger Airmen needing help in a pinch, I don't even know why
CAP members would think they are entitled to this access at all.  It would be interesting to know if / how many of
the troublemakers were airmen or dependents that are also CAP members, who would have access regardless.

Now, with that said...

The goobers who made the noise should be disciplined directly, whether for abuse of the system, or violation of
the core value of respect, instead of having to issue blanket spankings. If CAP would fix the PROBLEMS, instead of
trying to fix EVERYONE, it might get somewhere.  On first blush, this feels like the revocation of a privilege because of a few typical CAP
bad actors, when in fact it probably shouldn't have ever been an option.

Any CAP member, or parent, who would say anything but "THANK YOU" to another volunteer who is there giving them FREE STUFF,
absolutely needs an attitude adjustment regardless, and possibly formal disciplinary action to include the possibility of termination.

Moving forward...

Where is "Total Force"?  Why does CAP continue to be treated as an "outsider" and "Guest" on military bases, especially
USAF installations, in the face of the rhetoric of "one team"? Part of the reason CAP members would be in there to start
with is that other legit sources are all but cut off from the majority of the members, leaving them with cheap pink VG
knock-offs as their only ready option.  So mom trucks 3 hours to WP looking for a shirt, is told "sorry, we're out", and
goes "soccer mom".  None of this would happen if she could just order from AAFES.

An AD airman or dependent who pitched a fit at one of these places would probably get some NJP, or be barred from access,
but the whole USAF wouldn't be restricted.

"Total" means "Total".  Either CAP is part of the team, or it isn't. That goes for AAFES, MWR, USO, general base access, whatever.

It seems like the USAF is happy enough to include CAP in T-F when it needs free labor, but not so much when providing
some no-cost benefits to those same "airmen" members (Sorry, only "Airmen" during AFAMS).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 01:44:54 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Mordecai
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2017, 01:15:25 PM »

I agree with the earlier comment that CAP never should've had access to Airmans Attic. 

I'm gonna have to agree - whenever people talked about "Airmans Attic" my presumption was this was a thrift store
where people paid for items like any Goodwill, etc.

Googling around clearly shows that these are intended for younger Airmen needing help in a pinch, I don't even know why
CAP members would think they are entitled to this access at all.  It would be interesting to know if / how many of
the troublemakers were airmen or dependents that are also CAP members, who would have access regardless.

Now, with that said...

The goobers who made the noise should be disciplined directly, whether for abuse of the system, or violation of
the core value of respect, instead of having to issue blanket spankings. If CAP would fix the PROBLEMS, instead of
trying to fix EVERYONE, it might get somewhere.  On first blush, this feels like the revocation of a privilege because of a few typical CAP
bad actors, when in fact it probably shouldn't have ever been an option.

Any CAP member, or parent, who would say anything but "THANK YOU" to another volunteer who is there giving them FREE STUFF,
absolutely needs an attitude adjustment regardless, and possibly formal disciplinary action to include the possibility of termination.

Where is "Total Force"?  Why does CAP continue to be treated as an "outside" and "Guest" on military bases, especially
USAF installations, in the face of the rhetoric of "one team"?

An AD airman or dependent who pitched a fit at one of these places would probably get some NJP, or be barred from access,
but the whole USAF wouldn't be restricted.

"Total" means "Total".  Either CAP is part of the team, or it isn't. That goes for AAFES, MWR, USO, general base access, whatever.

It seems like the USAF is happy enough to include CAP in T-F when it needs free labor, but not so much when providing
some no-cost benefits to those same "airmen" members (Sorry, only "Airmen" during AFAMS).

Minus the Total Force points which I don't have time to go over right now, I'm in Total agreement with this post.

I imagine that if AF installations saw that we were disciplining our members when they did something dumb (proactively reaching out and saying to the PTB that we caught Member X doing Y and their access was revoked on our side and disciplinary action taken) that they would appreciate us policing our own and not nuke privs from orbit for all when a bad actor slips through.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 01:19:12 PM by Mordecai » Logged
abdsp51
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 02:05:00 PM »

Eclipse, not every person who is part of TF has access to those facilities. 
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etodd
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2017, 02:18:03 PM »


..., I don't even know why CAP members would think they are entitled to this access at all.

Ah c'mon. You know the answer to that one. Some of these folks put on that uniform and lose all sense of reality.
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MS - MO - AP - MP
Jester
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2017, 04:49:31 PM »

Our AA has trash bags full of ABUs they donate to CAP or JROTC. They get more of them than anything else and don't have the rack space to put them all out or the shelf space to backstock them.

I've previously talked to them and they were ok with members showing a CAPID getting a top and bottom. If this kind of incident happened here I think I'd go into some kind of rabies fit.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2017, 07:56:36 PM »


And finally a point about the USO.........those guys can be sticks in the mud.   The USO runs a small shop at El Paso for the out bound troops.....and they were very rude to us contractors who were also deploying.     And hey!  That's their right.   They are not an official part of the USAF or Military and they can set what ever rules they want.

I've mentioned this before, but the USO at LAX was quite accommodating to CAP, at their invitation. But it wasn't a drop in whenever you like deal. It was specifically limited to IACE departures and returns. No big deal for them, just a place to sit and have a cookie and a Coke while waiting for flights, but much appreciated. I say again - their invitation, but undoubtedly based on my personal relationship with the retired general who used to run it. I mentioned during a conversation that i was going to be rounding up CAP cadets for ISCE and he knew all about us, insisted that we use their facility as a safe haven and gathering place.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

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BuckeyeDEJ
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2017, 08:13:24 PM »

No AAFES.

Virtually no MCSS.

WHAT?!? I missed a memo somewhere.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 08:26:08 PM »

No AAFES.

Virtually no MCSS.

WHAT?!? I missed a memo somewhere.

CAP hasn't been able to order anything from AAFES for several years, and unless you have a USAF base with an
MCSS store in reasonable proximity, >and< are allowed on base, that's not really an option either.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

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