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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cold Weather ABU Headgear
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Author Topic: Cold Weather ABU Headgear  (Read 4006 times)
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 620

« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2017, 11:37:16 PM »

In fact, by regulation there is no cold weather headgear approved, so anything worn other then the patrol cap is a violation, and further, ABUs themselves are not properly authorized since they exist in the uniform inventory based solely on an ICL that violated 8.2 of CAPR 1-2.

Ya know, this makes me wonder if there isn't a reason NHQ plays fast and loose with the ICL process. Since it would have been so easy to simply put the ABU instruction letter inside CAPM 39-1 (there's already a chapter sitting unused just for ABUs), there must be some sort of process that using an ICL allows NHQ to bypass or work around some larger issue, such as 1AF approval or something within CAP-USAF. We have some pretty smart leaders, both volunteer and paid staff, I can't imagine they would intentionally violate how ICLs are supposed to work without a reason.

I'm not saying having a reason makes it right, but I just feel like they have a reason that we don't know about.
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Sapper168
Seasoned Member

Posts: 328
Unit: GLR-IL-036

« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2017, 02:37:07 AM »

Nothing in either the NHQ announcement or the ABU wear instructions say it is an ICL, unlike the other ICL's which have 'interim change letter' in the subject. There are two of them attached to the 39-1.
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Essayons!
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2017, 09:57:47 AM »

Nothing in either the NHQ announcement or the ABU wear instructions say it is an ICL, unlike the other ICL's which have 'interim change letter' in the subject. There are two of them attached to the 39-1.

That is a very interesting point, in fact, there is no properly published ICL or regulation update authorizing the ABU.

The original announcement was a "Transition memo", and the subsequent changes were via unsigned documents.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 740

« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2017, 10:48:57 AM »

Technically ABUs are not authorized since neither an ICL or updated CAPM 39-1 have been published.  The "transition letters" both seemed to have been hastily written and definitely poorly worded as to lead to confusion.  I'm not sure why NHQ chose this approach when an ICL could have been easily crafted by just referencing the BDU section of 39-1 with a few "EXCEPT" clauses to cover what is not authorized on the ABU but is authorized on the BDU.


Please note that I am not fighting to say that ABU are unauthorized but by CAP's own processes, they are.  Not sure what was so difficult about putting "Interm Change Letter" instead of "transition memo."
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2017, 11:38:19 AM »

Please note that I am not fighting to say that ABU are unauthorized but by CAP's own processes, they are.  Not sure what was so difficult about putting "Interm Change Letter" instead of "transition memo."

Because reading regulations and properly publishing changes isn't as much fun as shopping on base for your new ABUs...

It wouldn't matter anyway, since the reg at the time (CAPR 5-4), clearly stated that ICLs intending to be permanent
were to be incorporated within 90 days of publication, and all ICLs expire within 180 days regardless, something wholesale
ignored by NHQ for basically ever.

That language was removed with the publication of CAPR 1-2, however adding uniform items to the inventory is hardly a matter
"...requiring immediate action due to a state of emergency or an unforeseen circumstance involving the preservation of life or property..."
especially considering that the instructions themselves had been in draft form for somewhere between 2-5 years awaiting approval.

One could make the argument that the original 2016 "Transition Memo" has the equivalent weight of an "Executive Order" that's at least a valid stance,
however the two subsequent "updates" which purported to approve things like ball caps, ranger tabs, and unit patches hold no weight of
authority as they aren't even signed.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,865

« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2017, 11:38:44 AM »

They didn't make this an ICL because ICL's have a time limit, letters don't.
They knew it was going to take awhile to do the simple job of adding the letters to the 39-1... ::)
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,525

« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2017, 02:28:30 PM »

Quote

They knew it was going to take awhile to do the simple job of adding the letters to the 39-1...


Like... forever?

Nah, they are just sitting back on their desks, to see if someone posts a uniform blockbuster in CAPTalk, to add it to CAPM 39-1. So come on, add to the discussion!
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 949
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2017, 03:48:24 PM »

The obvious irony here is in watching the highly critical comments from people who will then knowingly with forethought then violate the regs six ways to Sunday because they find it convenient, all the while bashing the original authors as well as anyone who tries to follow said regs, while inventing spurious "safety" related justifications. Then, they'll make ignoring the uniform regs a systematic process through their troops, building a cultural bias against following (rather than fixing) leadership issues, and undermining the system they criticize.

Hypocrisy... on display. How we can openly admit and encourage breaking the system while complaining about it amazes me.

R/
Spam

Edit: in the spirit of Glasnost, I forgot the tie to wear with my long sleeve grays at a meeting last week. I proactively apologized to the SER/CC when I realized it, and he stated "I noticed". That's an "oops", which you fix and move on from, and which is different from systematically and corrosively skipping wearing the tie and telling your troops to not bother.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 03:54:23 PM by Spam » Logged
CS
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2017, 07:46:22 AM »

The regulations allow the wear of black ear muffs, so what's the problem?
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 64
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2017, 08:46:42 PM »

The regulations allow the wear of black ear muffs, so what's the problem?


[citation needed]
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,078
Unit: SI

« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2017, 08:51:27 PM »

The regulations allow the wear of black ear muffs, so what's the problem?


[citation needed]

CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.10
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 64
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 08:54:27 PM »

The regulations allow the wear of black ear muffs, so what's the problem?
[citation needed]

CAPM 39-1 5.1.1.10

Has no bearing on the wear of the ABU.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,061
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2017, 01:40:34 AM »

How about this?
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
6.3.1.7.3. Earmuffs (black). Earmuffs may be worn with all authorized outer garments and may wrap around either the top or rear of the head. Earmuffs may be made of any material and will only be worn with an outer garment
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 64
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2017, 02:39:21 AM »

How about this?
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
6.3.1.7.3. Earmuffs (black). Earmuffs may be worn with all authorized outer garments and may wrap around either the top or rear of the head. Earmuffs may be made of any material and will only be worn with an outer garment

Quote from: CAPM 39-1
1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within.
I'm not an attorney, but to me this seems to imply that CAPM 39-1 only applies to the uniform ensembles that it of itself authorizes, therefore none of the restrictions/allowances are valid when discussing the ABU.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,317
Unit: Classified

« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2017, 04:15:23 AM »

Wow.  It's now down to crying about if the ABU is even authorized, especially after all the moaning and footstopping and tantrum throwing about getting them.  SMH,  now I've seen it all.
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CS
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2017, 11:02:38 AM »

Beginning to see how this is the same argument given by those that want "green boots."  If it is cold enough for outwear, you can wear black earmuffs, period, no legal interpretation needed.  You want to wear a green watch cap, sorry, you can't.  Don't like it, don't wear the ABU.  BDU's still have another 4 years authorized wear!
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cold Weather ABU Headgear
 


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