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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cold Weather ABU Headgear
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Author Topic: Cold Weather ABU Headgear  (Read 3745 times)
Shotgun
Forum Regular

Posts: 159
Unit: MIWG

« on: June 29, 2017, 02:26:46 PM »

As you can imagine, living in Michigan it gets cold during the winter the months.

Much of our unit membership has transitioned over to ABUs and are asking the question, "What headgear can we wear in the winter?"

My interpretation is that they are only allowed to wear the ABU cap.
        From the  ABU Wear Instruction -  "Headgear. The ABU cap is the only authorized headgear with this uniform"

Referencing 39-1 and cold weather accessories they refer to the black watch cap - but that is only for the BDU uniform.

Several members have the Air Force Green fleece cap and would like to wear it when it is cold and give the usual arguments. However, I gently remind them that since it is not mentioned in the instructions it is NOT authorized.

Insight from the hive mind to validate my interpretation or provide justification that changes my mind would be appreciated!
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,576

« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 02:45:19 PM »

Use common sense.

Wear the appropriate cold weather gear despite what the regulations may or may not say.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Jester
Forum Regular

Posts: 197

« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 03:32:02 PM »

Use common sense.

Wear the appropriate cold weather gear despite what the regulations may or may not say.


Exactly. Good grief.
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,586
Unit: of issue

« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2017, 03:56:36 PM »

You can probably rightly assume that a black watch cap, or maybe even the fleece watch cap, would be allowed.

Cuz if you put on the Online CAPF 73: "Cadet suffered severe frostbite to his ears because of CAPM 39-1" you likely will get laughed at.

Just saying.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,838

« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2017, 04:07:47 PM »

You can probably rightly assume that a black watch cap, or maybe even the fleece watch cap, would be allowed.

Cuz if you put on the Online CAPF 73: "Cadet suffered severe frostbite to his ears because of CAPM 39-1" you likely will get laughed at.

If you indicate that on a CAPF 73, you will get more then laughed at.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,586
Unit: of issue

« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2017, 04:37:17 PM »

If you indicate that on a CAPF 73, you will get more then laughed at.

Yeah, oops..

 ;)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
hamburgee
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 01:30:22 AM »

If it's not specifically mentioned, I would refer to the AFI for guidance.

Quote from: AFI 36-2903
6.3.8. Cold Weather Accessories. Cold weather accessories will only be worn when wearing
authorized outer garments (Exception: gloves may be worn solely with the service dress
uniform, ABUs and BDUs). With the exception of functional items, cold weather
accessories are only worn while outdoors.
6.3.8.1. Gloves (black or sage green). Gloves may be worn with all authorized outer
garments. They will be all one color, leather, knitted, tricot or suede, or a combination of
leather, knitted, tricot, and suede. Black or sage green gloves may be worn with the
ABU, FDU and all authorized outer garments to the ABU or FDU. Only black gloves
may be worn with the service dress uniform and all approved outer garments worn with
the blue service and service dress uniforms.
6.3.8.2. Scarf (black). A scarf may be worn with all authorized outer garments except
the pullover and cardigan sweaters (when worn solely as an outer garment). The scarf
must be tucked in and will only be worn with an outer garment. The scarf will not
exceed 10 inches in width and can be knit, all wool or cotton simplex, with or without a
napped surface.
6.3.8.3. Earmuffs (black). Earmuffs may be worn with all authorized outer garments and
may wrap around either the top or rear of the head. Earmuffs may be made of any
material and will only be worn with an outer garment
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McDaddy2003
Recruit

Posts: 17

« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 04:34:55 AM »

Sage green watch cap should suffice, we wear it in the USAF.
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TIger
Recruit

Posts: 13

« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 06:56:01 AM »

You can probably rightly assume that a black watch cap, or maybe even the fleece watch cap, would be allowed.

Cuz if you put on the Online CAPF 73: "Cadet suffered severe frostbite to his ears because of CAPM 39-1" you likely will get laughed at.

If you indicate that on a CAPF 73, you will get more then laughed at.

You might get the stupid regulations changed.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,287
Unit: Classified

« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 09:16:58 AM »

This was addressed in 39-1 and the ICL that came out for ABUS.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 890
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2017, 09:23:06 AM »

All:

Ref. the search function, this has been done before extensively (just half a year ago).

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21688.0;all

V/r
Spam

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SAREXinNY
Forum Regular

Posts: 126
Unit: NER-NY

« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2017, 06:44:21 PM »

Every exercise I've participated in allow civilian outer clothing when the winter months hit.  I've had cadets out there in pink hats and coats. Safety > Regulations
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,499

« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2017, 01:22:56 PM »

Since when are we bound by AFI instructions?

All I have seen are the CAPR, CAPM, CAPP, and other official CAP publications. No mention of any AFI!

AFI are important to provide some guidance but these are not binding on us.

And I have 20 years in Civil Air Patrol.

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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Sapper168
Seasoned Member

Posts: 327
Unit: GLR-IL-036

« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2017, 02:21:09 PM »

Since when are we bound by AFI instructions?

All I have seen are the CAPR, CAPM, CAPP, and other official CAP publications. No mention of any AFI!


I would be a little more careful with blanket statements like this. Go back and read the tattoo section(s) of 39-1.  It specifically mentions the AFI that provides guidance and even directs to it.   
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Essayons!
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,499

« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2017, 02:39:22 PM »

I was referring to the statement "Check the AFI." Not to when the "instructions to check the AFI originate in the CAP publication." Many but many times our members try to apply what they learned in RM without it being authorized by a CAP pub.
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Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Sapper168
Seasoned Member

Posts: 327
Unit: GLR-IL-036

« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2017, 05:10:18 PM »

Really the first thing that needs to be decided is whether or not the ABU wear instruction pdf is a part of the CAPM39-1 before they are written into the revision.

I have seen those that argue it is a stand alone document but then try to apply height/weight, tattoo, all of chapters 1-3 from 39-1 and other standards not listed in the pdf but found in the 39-1 to it.
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Essayons!
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,287
Unit: Classified

« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2017, 05:44:30 PM »

Really the first thing that needs to be decided is whether or not the ABU wear instruction pdf is a part of the CAPM39-1 before they are written into the revision.

I have seen those that argue it is a stand alone document but then try to apply height/weight, tattoo, all of chapters 1-3 from 39-1 and other standards not listed in the pdf but found in the 39-1 to it.

Really?  It is an ICL to 39-1 and therefore everything that is in 39-1 that applies to USAF uniforms applies to the ABU.
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Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 424

« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 06:35:03 PM »

Use common sense.

Wear the appropriate cold weather gear despite what the regulations may or may not say.
...   or how you might interpet them.



Absolutely! wear 'appropriate cold weather gear!   If you need an 'interpretation' of a reg where serious injury might (and would likely) result from YOUR read consult with your Wing Safety Officer.   The last place to go is an online forum.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 890
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2017, 09:16:06 PM »

If I cannot trust my troops to follow a simple uniform regulation to not wear pink coats, why in the world would I trust them to follow regulations that deal with operational matters? Why in the world would I trust people with that cavalier attitude with the care of trainees on a ground team, for example? Ref: the "five hazardous attitudes", this is the one that leads people to think that "their" common sense/opinion trumps regulations, and is coupled with a long history of hazardous behavior related to ignoring procedure.


Everyone makes the occasional uniform error, but in an organization where ES activities are an OPTIONAL element in the cadet program, training cadets thus, that regulations don't matter and are worth ignoring, is a systematic bust of our core values of excellence in all we do.


This is a tired, cyclical argument filled with fallacious arguments: some members who have knowingly joined a USAF-affiliated organization can't afford or obtain the items to participate in some element, and then invent this idea that we should circumvent uniform regulations because of some perceived mandate that members without MUST show up. Anyone who holds to standards, is then cast as a mean heartless Grinch who hates kids/the poor. Then we run to a Safety Officer asking for a hall pass, when this is a Command issue, not a safety issue. You don't deploy people to exercises who aren't properly equipped.


So I call Bull. Budget to buy your field gear, including the dang headgear/thermal skivvies/outerwear, and show up when you're legal per the SQTRs. There are affordable options, as per the other thread.


R/
Spam

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,838

« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2017, 10:33:24 PM »

As pointed out several times, this is a well intentioned but an incorrect interpretation of both the regulations
and the practical reality of the organization as it exists today.

In fact, by regulation there is no cold weather headgear approved, so anything worn other then the patrol cap is a violation,
and further, ABUs themselves are not properly authorized since they exist in the uniform inventory based solely on an ICL that violated § 8.2 of CAPR 1-2.

If you're going to try and play the ATRATT cards, you have to play the whole deck, (not pretend the
jokers and the advertising cards aren't in there), which, as again pointed out multiple times,
includes a number of areas where regs and pamphlets, especially in regards to uniforms wear, contradict either each other othemselves.

Trying to insinuate that one or the other of CAP's missions are somehow "optional", which is ridiculous as a support for something like this,
ignores issues of command intent in regards to member experience, retention, and most importantly safety, and it further pre-supposes
that one specific area is the only place a given uniform is worn.

To put it succinctly, again...to deny any member participation in a given activity, especially a cadet, because they do not have a regulation
jacket or hat, flies in the face of CAP's core values, the stated intentions of the program(s), especially the CP, and literally denies the
realty of CAP within its entire history to ultimately make a self-defeating point.

It is not "leadership".

It is not "mentorship".

It is "...small-minded and ignoble and takes the trivial seriously..."
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Cold Weather ABU Headgear
 


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