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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Converting Squadron Patch to Clip Art / Cafepress for Storefront?
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Author Topic: Converting Squadron Patch to Clip Art / Cafepress for Storefront?  (Read 1983 times)
xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 499
Unit: IL-189

« on: June 21, 2017, 09:45:37 AM »

Hey guys.  I'd like to setup a storefront for the purchase of squadron related items (PT shirts, mugs, hoodies, etc) featuring the squadron patch.  I have a nice scan of the patch but I thought it might be better do use clip art instead but I have zero experience there. Does anyone know of a source that will do the conversion?  If it's going on a black t-shirt I think the full color version would be sharp but not so much on the sand ABU shirt so I'd need both versions.

I was looking at cafepress which seems to be a good site for individual sales versus bulk ordering.  Is there a better option?  I'm not sure if they charge more for color versus monochrome?

Thanks in advance!
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 10:18:15 AM »

The problem with cafepress is they are convenient but much more expensive then ordering locally, especially when factoring
in individual shipping - I use them for mugs every year, but their bulk pricing doesn't kick in util fair quantities are
ordered.

As to the art itself, presumably you don't have the original drawings or approval art?  I agree the images you currently
have aren't going to translate well to screen printing, especially in color. You best best for t-shirts is
single-color "monochrome" versions of the insignia.

Someone would / will have to essentially re-draw the insignia using the current one as a model.  Most of your elements are not an
issue, but the aircraft and flag may be a problem to match exactly.

Might as well get that done sooner then later - you can use it then for other collateral, letterhead, whatever going forward.
It's be a lot easier if you had the original art, or at least the elements.


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xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 499
Unit: IL-189

« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2017, 10:41:38 AM »

Thanks, I'll dig a little deeper to see if someone happens to have a copy.

Perhaps a once a year or once every 6 months order might work out better for pricing. Just always seems like cadets show a ton of interest until you ask for money, I was hoping to get out of that business.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 10:46:32 AM »

What my Wing Legal told me:

NHQ actually owns the copyright to your official squadron patch.  That means that you have to go through VG to have items made with that logo.  VG has 30 days to to stock the item and offer it for sale on their website.  Once the 30 days has passed you are free to go out and source the items from wherever you want.  We have gone through this process at least a dozen times that I know of and so far VG hasn't decided to stock the items.


Now that I have that out of the way, there are many sites that offer free art work if you purchase their products.  That may be a way to get a good sharp version of your squadron logo with little effort.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,807

« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2017, 12:05:37 PM »

What my Wing Legal told me:

NHQ actually owns the copyright to your official squadron patch.  That means that you have to go through VG to have items made with that logo.  VG has 30 days to to stock the item and offer it for sale on their website.  Once the 30 days has passed you are free to go out and source the items from wherever you want.  We have gone through this process at least a dozen times that I know of and so far VG hasn't decided to stock the items.


Now that I have that out of the way, there are many sites that offer free art work if you purchase their products.  That may be a way to get a good sharp version of your squadron logo with little effort.


Who did your Wing Legal Officer talk to, the Vanguard Liaison Officer? Because this is the First time I've ever heard of this. And I've been around awhile.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2017, 12:11:48 PM »

Who did your Wing Legal Officer talk to, the Vanguard Liaison Officer? Because this is the First time I've ever heard of this. And I've been around awhile.

+1 sounds like a wive's tale.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2017, 12:47:17 PM »

I'm guessing the LO was talking about the triangle and prop logo, or the words Civil Air Patrol, which are the intellectual property of CAP, and require their permission to use.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2017, 08:47:15 PM »

I'm guessing the LO was talking about the triangle and prop logo, or the words Civil Air Patrol, which are the intellectual property of CAP, and require their permission to use.

Nope.  According to our LO, NHQ owns all CAP logos used in an official capacity, including unit logos.  Our LO is a trademark lawyer so I'm assuming he knows how to read a contract.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2017, 09:11:43 PM »

OK.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
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C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2017, 09:31:51 PM »

Which CAPR prohibits members from procuring uniform items and insignia from sources other than Vanguard
or for that matter requires they use only Vanguard?

As a matter of fact, I can't even find the verbiage that used to require a new patch be sent to the Historian,
just a single CAP Knowledgebase entry and 2 mentions in 39-1 about AFHRA compliance in intent of the design.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2017, 10:31:26 PM »

This isn't a Vanguard issue. It's a potential intellectual property issue that goes beyond the Vanguard contract.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2017, 11:22:53 PM »

This isn't a Vanguard issue. It's a potential intellectual property issue that goes beyond the Vanguard contract.

From one angle, yes, but only because VG is the purportedly the sole licensee for CAP insignia.  Absent that,
it's not even a discussion point, and in all our discussions on that issue, I don't think anyone has even quoted
the actual verbiage of the agreement.

There's also the non-trivial issue of it being primarily an academic discussion, since it's unenforceable
from a practical perspective considering the hundreds of units and activities that create awards, t-shirts,
and other detritus locally, including in many cases members literally creating them themselves.

There are members who own embroidery machines - they makes nametapes, patches, all sorts of stuff,
would anyone assert that they are not allowed to provide those?  How about members who own
silk screen shops and make t-shirts?

We're told time and again that NHQ is incapable of enforcing even the most basic uniform wear
regs, but it's going to waste time trying to stop a unit saving money using a pac-rim source for patches
or a local shop for t-shirts?  There's still national presentations, collateral and coins using the Happ Arnold wings
despite that being prohibited since 2012.

And there's still no citation or verbiage about this I can find anywhere.


900-2 says this:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R900_002_8A8354F4FD7C3.pdf

"3. Authorized Uses:
a. In accordance with Federal Statute 36 U.S.C. Section 40306, Civil Air Patrol shall have the sole and exclusive right
to the name “Civil Air Patrol.”

b. The seal, logo and command emblem may not be altered, obscured or modified in any way or used as part of another
emblem or logo without the approval from National Headquarters Public Affairs.

c. The Civil Air Patrol name, seal, logo and/or command emblem will not be used for personal gain. Additionally, the
name, seal, logo and/or command emblem will not be used for any commercial purpose, except under licensing agreement as
approved by the Chief Operating Officer
after review by General Counsel. Approval from National Headquarters Public
Affairs must be obtained to use the seal, logo and/or command emblem in advertisements and for any purpose other than
those listed below."


OK, fair enough.  36 USC says NHQ owns the name, so that could be used as the basis of the C&Ds for nametapes,
it's ridiculous, but there you are.

The actual verbiage is:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/40306
"36 U.S. Code § 40306 - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name “Civil Air Patrol” and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights
."

Beyond the overly broad allowance of "phrases the corporation adopts" (it can't adopt anything owned by another entity
such as "Think Different" or "Like a Good Neighbor, CAP is There.", etc., though it would take a judge to decide that, ultimately.

But the reg, which is what binds member behavior and action, only calls out the "name, seal, logo and/or command emblem",
and then further, only restricts commercial use, not non-commercial, internal use, which would be a normal course of business.

So you can't make CAP hats and sell them to the public for a profit, but there is no restriction on making things for internal use.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 11:27:55 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2017, 01:58:59 PM »

There are CAP regulations and there is the contract between CAP and VG.  It is that contract, from my understanding, that give VG first right of refusal for any official CAP item, that includes a unit emblem if it is an emblem that has been approved by the chain of command.

Again, I'm just repeating the guidance we were given.  I haven't read the VG contract but I trust my LO who is way smarter than I am regarding this stuff.

At the end of the day it is not a big deal.  VG has 30 days to offer the item for sale on their website or you are free to source it from wherever you want.  So far they haven't wanted to start selling t-shirts from a squadron yet.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,807

« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2017, 03:07:55 PM »

There are CAP regulations and there is the contract between CAP and VG.  It is that contract, from my understanding, that give VG first right of refusal for any official CAP item, that includes a unit emblem if it is an emblem that has been approved by the chain of command.

Again, I'm just repeating the guidance we were given.  I haven't read the VG contract but I trust my LO who is way smarter than I am regarding this stuff.

At the end of the day it is not a big deal.  VG has 30 days to offer the item for sale on their website or you are free to source it from wherever you want.  So far they haven't wanted to start selling t-shirts from a squadron yet.

Has your LO actually read the contract? If not then he is guessing just like the rest of us.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2017, 04:12:08 PM »

VG has 30 days to offer the item for sale on their website or you are free to source it from wherever you want.  So far they haven't wanted to start selling t-shirts from a squadron yet.

Gonna have to drop a "cite please" here.

You're quoting very specific terms, yet nothing public has any of that verbiage or guidance, and members don't look to vendor agreements for their operational guidance, they are bound by published regulations, the totality of which in this regard, as far as I can tell, are quoted above.

We all know how often people say things because they "know" despite a reg or other document that directly conflicts with the answer.

I also grant you're just echoing what you were told, so it's not on you, regardless.
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ProdigalJim
Seasoned Member

Posts: 497
Unit: MER-VA-082

Aviation Week
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2017, 07:00:16 PM »


The actual verbiage is:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/40306
"36 U.S. Code § 40306 - Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name “Civil Air Patrol” and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights
."

Beyond the overly broad allowance of "phrases the corporation adopts" (it can't adopt anything owned by another entity
such as "Think Different" or "Like a Good Neighbor, CAP is There.", etc., though it would take a judge to decide that, ultimately.

But the reg, which is what binds member behavior and action, only calls out the "name, seal, logo and/or command emblem",
and then further, only restricts commercial use, not non-commercial, internal use, which would be a normal course of business.

So you can't make CAP hats and sell them to the public for a profit, but there is no restriction on making things for internal use.

The reg in this instance is not controlling, the law is. "The Corporation has the exclusive right to use...all insignia...emblems...the Corporation adopts."

The chain-of-command's act of approving a unit patch for uniform wear would plainly constitute "adoption" under 36 U.S. Code § 40306.

And yes, it sucks. It means VG has the right to stop you from making stuff with your own unit patch so that they can reserve the right to make their own sucky version at a no-doubt higher price. Yay us.
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Jim Mathews, Maj., CAP
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My Mitchell Has Four Digits...
Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2017, 08:58:32 PM »

^ This makes a logical, but non-existent connection where none exists in anything which is
available publicly or quoted here.

The law grants the organization the rights. That's it.  It does not speak to anything in regards to
licensing, nor does it direct member action.  It just says "CAP has the rights".

It's up to CAP to decide from there what the above means at the member level, that's the reg, and you can't ignore
what the reg actually says:

900-2 says this:
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R900_002_8A8354F4FD7C3.pdf

"3. Authorized Uses:
a. In accordance with Federal Statute 36 U.S.C. Section 40306, Civil Air Patrol shall have the sole and exclusive right
to the name “Civil Air Patrol.”

b. The seal, logo and command emblem may not be altered, obscured or modified in any way or used as part of another
emblem or logo without the approval from National Headquarters Public Affairs.

c. The Civil Air Patrol name, seal, logo and/or command emblem will not be used for personal gain. Additionally, the
name, seal, logo and/or command emblem will not be used for any commercial purpose, except under licensing agreement as
approved by the Chief Operating Officer
after review by General Counsel. Approval from National Headquarters Public
Affairs must be obtained to use the seal, logo and/or command emblem in advertisements and for any purpose other than
those listed below."

The above is the only regulatory verbiage I can find on the subject, it only says three things...

A - CAP has the right to the name.

B - The seal, Logo, and command emblem may not be changed without permission, nor included in other logos.

C - The name, seal, logo, and command emblem will not be used for personal gain or commercial purposes.

That's it, there's nothing else there, and no mention of a general prohibition of using other vendors for non-personal / non commercial use.
In fact there's no mention whatsoever of any vendor.  Anything else is an assumption of intent outside the corners of the reg.

A squadron patch, NCSA shirt, or unit hat (etc.), unavailable to the public is neither "personal use" nor "commercial purpose", and further,
the above only asserts input on items which contain the name, seal, logo, or command emblem, which per the above aren't supposed to
be incorporated into unit insignia anyway (though lots violate that rule).

So the USC may well grant rights to "any and all", however what NHQ has chosen to direct it's members to do related to those rights
is specific only to the 4 items named above, not a blanket "everything", and further, only in regards to commercial or for-profit use.

Absent being able to see the verbiage of the license agreement, there's no way to know what tenants do, or do not exist (30 day rule, etc.),
however even assuming NHQ granted full commercial license to VG for "everything", the agreement itself is between VG and CAP, Inc., not the
membership, and if VG feels NHQ isn't complying, they would be within their right to seek injunctive relief that compels CAP, Inc., to
direct it's members as such, presumably via a change to 900-2 or a related reg.

Absent that, CAP members do not take direction from a license agreement that they can't read and aren't a party to.




« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 09:02:21 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,497

« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2017, 08:41:42 AM »

As always, Eclipse has summarized and put, very clearly, an interpretation of a CAP regulation.

Thank you, Eclipse.

NHQ decides it is wrong? Then add more clauses to the regulation itself. Give us the Vanguard contract as well.

 :clap:
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 694

« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2017, 10:15:05 AM »

VG has 30 days to offer the item for sale on their website or you are free to source it from wherever you want.  So far they haven't wanted to start selling t-shirts from a squadron yet.

Gonna have to drop a "cite please" here.

You're quoting very specific terms, yet nothing public has any of that verbiage or guidance, and members don't look to vendor agreements for their operational guidance, they are bound by published regulations, the totality of which in this regard, as far as I can tell, are quoted above.

We all know how often people say things because they "know" despite a reg or other document that directly conflicts with the answer.

I also grant you're just echoing what you were told, so it's not on you, regardless.

As I have already said multiple times in this thread, what I am saying is coming from my LO who is also a trademark lawyer and the verbiage is in the CAP-VG contract.  I do not have a copy of said contract so I can't cite it directly.  I trust his judgement since he actually does this for a living.  I really don't have the time to attempt to review the VG contract myself as I am sure it is buried in legalese and there are far more meaningful things to do.

Regulations  are only a part of the puzzle, along with public law and the VG contract.  The contract is the key and I'm not sure if that is a document for the masses.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,807

« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2017, 10:41:32 AM »

VG has 30 days to offer the item for sale on their website or you are free to source it from wherever you want.  So far they haven't wanted to start selling t-shirts from a squadron yet.

Gonna have to drop a "cite please" here.

You're quoting very specific terms, yet nothing public has any of that verbiage or guidance, and members don't look to vendor agreements for their operational guidance, they are bound by published regulations, the totality of which in this regard, as far as I can tell, are quoted above.

We all know how often people say things because they "know" despite a reg or other document that directly conflicts with the answer.

I also grant you're just echoing what you were told, so it's not on you, regardless.

As I have already said multiple times in this thread, what I am saying is coming from my LO who is also a trademark lawyer and the verbiage is in the CAP-VG contract.  I do not have a copy of said contract so I can't cite it directly.  I trust his judgement since he actually does this for a living.  I really don't have the time to attempt to review the VG contract myself as I am sure it is buried in legalese and there are far more meaningful things to do.

Regulations  are only a part of the puzzle, along with public law and the VG contract.  The contract is the key and I'm not sure if that is a document for the masses.

Not asking you to release it to the masses. Just asking if your Trademark Lawyer has read it before he gave you his opinion.
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