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jfkspotting
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« on: May 07, 2017, 08:24:36 PM »

Good evening. My First encampment this summer will be at NY Wing as a Staff Sergeant.

What should I expect, as I can actually say I've never been to an encampment as an airman? I joined in November and did not go to the 2016 encampment.
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Arc light
Recruit

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Unit: GLR-KY-050

« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 11:51:37 PM »

I just finished my spring encampment last week as a staff sergeant as well and you should expect the same thing as anyone else,at my encampment there were cadet CMS as well as airmen. Everyone gets treated the same with no extra responsibilities on higher ranking cadets. The only extra thing would be that you are going in to it with more expirence but personally it doesn't matter, just have fun.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2017, 10:32:48 AM »

I just finished my spring encampment last week as a staff sergeant as well and you should expect the same thing as anyone else,at my encampment there were cadet CMS as well as airmen. Everyone gets treated the same with no extra responsibilities on higher ranking cadets. The only extra thing would be that you are going in to it with more expirence but personally it doesn't matter, just have fun.


C/CMSgt*. You can find all the proper abbreviations here: https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Respect_on_Display_2009__Reduced_2A46F4ACF35F8.pdf (Page 16)
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Jester
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2017, 01:16:33 PM »

I would say that you're walking a fine line. 

On one hand, you're a student, and should act as such. Therefore, your role is to simply do the exact same thing as everyone else in the flight.  Don't undercut your flight commander and flight sergeant.  Being a good follower is paramount to being a good leader.

On the other hand, you're a cadet NCO, and as such have more experience than most of the others in your flight.  You also have the added role of informal leadership.  "Leadership" isn't just a spot on the org chart.  I would expect you to take charge during non-training tasks such as getting barracks squared away.  Is a cadet in your element new to CAP and having trouble getting his boots shined?  Looks like you need to be helping him during downtime each evening. 

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CadetCrayonEater
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2017, 03:33:13 PM »

I would say that you're walking a fine line. 

On one hand, you're a student, and should act as such. Therefore, your role is to simply do the exact same thing as everyone else in the flight.  Don't undercut your flight commander and flight sergeant.  Being a good follower is paramount to being a good leader.

On the other hand, you're a cadet NCO, and as such have more experience than most of the others in your flight.  You also have the added role of informal leadership.  "Leadership" isn't just a spot on the org chart.  I would expect you to take charge during non-training tasks such as getting barracks squared away.  Is a cadet in your element new to CAP and having trouble getting his boots shined?  Looks like you need to be helping him during downtime each evening.

This is probably the best answer you will get
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C/SrA Mudd
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Shieldel
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 06:54:53 PM »

Not sure if this is a necro since it's only a week old but wanted throw my $.02

I knew of a chief that went as a student. He asserted rank over his flight staff....that...I wish I could have been there to see. With popcorn of course.

I agree with Cadet Mudd and Jester.

Set the example, act your rank, help your flight when you can, but do know your place. You are there as a student. Granted you're going as a C/SSgt so your staff will probably outrank you anyways but still a good thing to keep in mind. You are an NCO. Airmen will look up to you. Act the NCO part but do know your limits as a student.
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GaryVC
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 11:59:08 AM »

I am planning to go to my first encampment in 50 years this summer so I will see how it works. As a senior member I would hope that the higher ranking cadets attending their first encampment would be picked to fill posts that aren't part of the cadet cadre such as element leader, guide and guidon bearer IF they are capable of performing in those rolls.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 12:10:27 PM »

I am planning to go to my first encampment in 50 years this summer so I will see how it works. As a senior member I would hope that the higher ranking cadets attending their first encampment would be picked to fill posts that aren't part of the cadet cadre such as element leader, guide and guidon bearer IF they are capable of performing in those rolls.

Every encampment is different in this respect, but generally these decisions are made based on game-day performance and not grade.

Owing to the inconsistent nature of local training, there are far too many Cadet Chiefs who do not perform at grade level
and are outshined by high-speed airmen, and without putting too fine point on it, a Cadet Chief in student ranks at their first
encampment is at least one indication of not being the most motivated cadet (not always, but's one thing to look at).
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GaryVC
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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 01:31:14 PM »

In the old, old days in California Wing no one went to encampment with any grade. Those selected for the cadet cadre were assigned grade based on their position. I am not sure why this process was stopped (hurt feelings?) but it solved some problems.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 01:44:44 PM »

It was stopped because it was in violation of the regulations, no matter how well-intentioned or practical it was.
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Dave Bowles
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GaryVC
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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 01:57:33 PM »

It was stopped because it was in violation of the regulations, no matter how well-intentioned or practical it was.

I wonder if that was true 50 years ago?
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 02:00:38 PM »

It was stopped because it was in violation of the regulations, no matter how well-intentioned or practical it was.

I wonder if that was true 50 years ago?


50 years back is quite a stretch.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2017, 02:37:47 PM »

It was stopped because it was in violation of the regulations, no matter how well-intentioned or practical it was.

I wonder if that was true 50 years ago?

True as in being prohibited? Possible, but I don't have anything going back that far. I know that CAPR 52-16 was very specific about it in 2003 - No discretionary grades.
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Dave Bowles
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SarDragon
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« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2017, 02:39:00 PM »

It was stopped because it was in violation of the regulations, no matter how well-intentioned or practical it was.

I wonder if that was true 50 years ago?


50 years back is quite a stretch.

For some, yes. Not me, I was there.
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Dave Bowles
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GaryVC
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 02:39:41 PM »

The question of course is why? Did it discourage cadets from going to encampment? That's the only valid reason I can think of.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2017, 02:52:23 PM »

What possible use would serve?

Authority at enacmpments is positional just like the rest of CAP.
Making a cadet a brevet Major doesn't make him a Major, and he would not have completed the requisite training to theoretically know how to be one.

There's also the non trivial issue of grade being seen sewn on.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2017, 03:06:32 PM by SarDragon » Logged

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wacapgh
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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2017, 03:49:07 PM »

What possible use would serve?

Authority at enacmpments is positional just like the rest of CAP.
Making a cadet a brevet Major doesn't make him a Major, and he would not have completed the requisite training to theoretically know how to be one.

There's also the non trivial issue of grade being seen sewn on.

I think the entire text in the regs was "A temporary grade structure is authorized for Encampments"

Sewing the the old cloth insignia was one of the excuses for the abuse. If you were on "Staff", you would easily have a set of Class A's, two sets of "1550's", and two sets of fatigues. That's 10 stripes to change out. Buying the hardboards if you were filling an officer position (they were required on all blue uniforms, unless you were a C/WO) required new shirts to attach the snaps and the sleeves on your old ones had dark spots where they were covered by your stripes.

"We need a couple of weeks before and after to do all the sewing" - So there's a month of wearing "temporary grade".
"Staff should wear their grade as soon as they are selected because (any number of reasons)" - There's a couple more months.

By the time it was stopped, you could get away with "temporary grade" for five or six months depending on your Wing policy.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2017, 04:26:31 PM »

By the time it was stopped, you could get away with "temporary grade" for five or six months depending on your Wing policy.

Not to mention I'm sure there were more then a few who came home thinking there were simply "the new grade" and
argued with the CC about it.

The way it is done now is fine, and honestly it's never even been a subject of conversation in the 14 encampments / 17 years I've been in.

Students in flight have no recognition of their grade, since none is necessary.  Those in the cadre are addressed by whatever their grade is unless there
have some other title that would be appropriate.

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GaryVC
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« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2017, 04:41:21 PM »

By the time it was stopped, you could get away with "temporary grade" for five or six months depending on your Wing policy.

I never saw this happen and my temporary encampment grade was lower than my actual grade. Sewing wasn't a problem, well it was but it was all about the California wing patch, not grade. In those days cadet enlisted ranks was sewn on while cadet officer grade was pinned on. I don't think we bothered with the shoulder boards at encampment (or anywhere else we could get away with it).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2017, 04:51:15 PM »

^ So that example, to me, is even worse, and probably more the norm.

You reward a cadet for stepping up and volunteering for staff of an encampment by demoting him?

I'd have to look hard to find that being a good idea.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2017, 03:58:46 PM »

Frankly, as a Cadet Programs officer, what would I look for---

I would expect that the cadets overseeing your squadron's training (Encampment squadron that is) use you as a team leader in activities. They should expect you as a C/NCO, whether it's your first Encampment or not---as an C/NCO---to step up and keep everyone on track when their instructors aren't around or when their instructors can't manage everyone without that extra support.

If you didn't catch it, this means that you should step up and be willing to be that go-to person with questions, subtle mentoring during the week---being someone that your squadron/flight can look to for guidance. Remind people of how much time they have left. Stay on top of the schedule. Remind them to make their racks and organize their locker/closet/dresser. Keep order without stepping on the toes of your instructors.

What are you doing during your down time? Are you spending it relaxing, or are you going around and seeing how everyone is doing, making sure they have what they need? If you aren't an element leader, make sure you provide guidance and assistance to the element leader, but don't overstep your role (or lack of).

As a C/SSgt, you know CAP more than the C/Airmen; you know nearly everything more than they do. Take what's expected of you as a C/SSgt outside of Encampment, bring it to Encampment, and just keep yourself in check that you aren't trying to run everything.

I had a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) in my Officer Candidate class. He was just as equal as everyone else in the class, except he had more expectations having prior experience. He wasn't a trainer. In fact, he was being taught by other E-7s, and even E-5s and E-6s. He didn't outrank them, but he's still looked at to be a leader within the realm of training.

Prior experience is always appreciated in the training world so long as those with that experience don't try to stage a coup---don't tell everyone "he's wrong; he doesn't know what he's teaching." Just do what you're told, fall in line, but be visible to the lower ranks.
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Spam
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2017, 03:51:15 PM »


I had a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) in my Officer Candidate class. He was just as equal as everyone else in the class, except he had more expectations having prior experience. He wasn't a trainer. In fact, he was being taught by other E-7s, and even E-5s and E-6s. He didn't outrank them, but he's still looked at to be a leader within the realm of training.


The Navy term, "Bull Ensign" comes to mind... the top dog (usually prior enlisted service) O-1s who doesn't necessarily dominate through vast technical know how, personal magnetism or pushy behavior but by professional team forming and leadership behavior, starting with recognizing first that they are servant leaders taking care of bros and sisters on the team, to thus better accomplish a common mission.

My dad, who passed two weeks ago at the ripe old age of 92, enlisted in '42, drilled after the war as USNR as a senior NCO while getting his engineering degree on the GI bill, and was sent through Annapolis for a quick DCO/OCS style short commissioning course in the Korean call up. A full company of similar veteran guys were in his company, which must have been one of the most atypical training formations imaginable (they needed engineering JO's, badly then... he ended up later interviewing and passing with then-Captain (O-6) Hyman Rickover for the new nuclear Navy). He related a story about some young Academy upperclassmen middies who straight off, saw a chance to have some fun with older guys under their supervision, and started in on them with the hazing stuff. A LCDR observed, called them over, and was overheard to warn them to the effect that "Hey, those guys were killin' Japs while you were in 7th grade, and after you all leave here, they will be commissioned first - you'd better be prepared to call them "Sir". So, cut that crap out and focus on training, 'cause we're back in a shooting war here".

Smart CAP encampment staff will recognize the talent mine in their trainees and use it, not abuse it.

Smart trainees will hold their peace, sublimate their pride, and work to pull their flight together under the appointed staff - not to buck the system, but to prevail as a team.


Cheers
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2017, 04:19:55 AM »

^ So that example, to me, is even worse, and probably more the norm.

You reward a cadet for stepping up and volunteering for staff of an encampment by demoting him?

I'd have to look hard to find that being a good idea.

Sure. Demoting him. Or promoting him. Whichever fit.

I lived through it then (although 48 years ago, not 50). It was NO BIG DEAL.

We arrived sans grade, then positions were allocated. If you got one, you pinned or sewed on the insignia. It was a minor hassle for cadet NCO's, officers had no cloth insignia then.

The advantage was that everybody knew what somebody was with a glance. Five stripes? Flight Sergeant. Six stripes? First sergeant. One pip? Flight Commander. Etc. it was indeed authorized and made sense.

Other Wings used armbands, engraved "position plates" on the shirt or other means. Again, IT WAS NO BIG DEAL.

They eventually did away with it and California admittedly kept it going past the cutoff. I and others objected but were overruled until the hammer finally came down. The reason I objected was because it was contrary to regulations thus making it wrong to continue, even though I personally believed that the system worked. I wasn't upset when the hammer came down, for the same reason as when the policy was allowed by regulation - it was NO BIG DEAL.

It doesn't matter if the flight sergeant is a C/SSgt while a C/CMSgt is a first time student. It doesn't matter if a flight commander if a C/Capt is a flight commander reporting to a C/1stLt squadron commander. It's the assignment that matters, not the rank. It's 7-9 days. People live through it and move on. Just as they did when the temporary grade system was in effect. NO BIG DEAL with either system.

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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2017, 04:25:56 AM »

What possible use would serve?

Authority at enacmpments is positional just like the rest of CAP.
Making a cadet a brevet Major doesn't make him a Major, and he would not have completed the requisite training to theoretically know how to be one.

There's also the non trivial issue of grade being seen sewn on.

I think the entire text in the regs was "A temporary grade structure is authorized for Encampments"

Sewing the the old cloth insignia was one of the excuses for the abuse. If you were on "Staff", you would easily have a set of Class A's, two sets of "1550's", and two sets of fatigues. That's 10 stripes to change out. Buying the hardboards if you were filling an officer position (they were required on all blue uniforms, unless you were a C/WO) required new shirts to attach the snaps and the sleeves on your old ones had dark spots where they were covered by your stripes.

"We need a couple of weeks before and after to do all the sewing" - So there's a month of wearing "temporary grade".
"Staff should wear their grade as soon as they are selected because (any number of reasons)" - There's a couple more months.

By the time it was stopped, you could get away with "temporary grade" for five or six months depending on your Wing policy.

Five or six MONTHS? In CA, it wasn't worn until arrival, and one had to clear the base wearing earned grade. (Or lower. I vividly recall a C/TSgt sewing on chevrons while seated in the usaf bus headed home. He had disregarded the advice given to sew them back into one shirt before departure, and his temporary lieutenancy was over).
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
jfkspotting
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2017, 09:05:09 PM »

What is the highest-ranking inflight y'all have seen before?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2017, 10:01:01 PM »

What is the highest-ranking inflight y'all have seen before?

Chief.  Higher then than that a cadet would have already attended an encampment and it would
be inappropriate for a cadet officer to be a student.

In those cases there are other roles more appropriate.

I've long encouraged cadets to consider attending more then one encampment as a student,
especially different activities, but not as an officer.
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