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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
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Author Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers  (Read 7514 times)
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 261
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2017, 03:55:04 PM »

I will never see Major or above due to the need for Region Staff College. I can not afford the loss of income for the week that I would have to take off. If I am going to take the time off, I am going to spend it with my family, sorry CAP volunteer service only goes so far in some cases. Also for the same reason by PD is done for Safety due to the need for FEMA 300 and 400.

Are you currently a Captain that is eligible for promotion to Major under the old system?

Otherwise, well, you're not saying that you can't afford the loss of income for the week off, as that would be compensated vacation.  You're saying you have other priorities, which is perfectly cool.
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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,023
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2017, 04:19:04 PM »

I will never see Major or above due to the need for Region Staff College. I can not afford the loss of income for the week that I would have to take off. If I am going to take the time off, I am going to spend it with my family, sorry CAP volunteer service only goes so far in some cases. Also for the same reason by PD is done for Safety due to the need for FEMA 300 and 400.

Are you currently a Captain that is eligible for promotion to Major under the old system?

Otherwise, well, you're not saying that you can't afford the loss of income for the week off, as that would be compensated vacation.  You're saying you have other priorities, which is perfectly cool.


For most people that week = family vacation time. For others, NCSAs, encampments, etc.
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,599

« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2017, 04:25:36 PM »

I will never see Major or above due to the need for Region Staff College. I can not afford the loss of income for the week that I would have to take off. If I am going to take the time off, I am going to spend it with my family, sorry CAP volunteer service only goes so far in some cases. Also for the same reason by PD is done for Safety due to the need for FEMA 300 and 400.

Are you currently a Captain that is eligible for promotion to Major under the old system?

Otherwise, well, you're not saying that you can't afford the loss of income for the week off, as that would be compensated vacation.  You're saying you have other priorities, which is perfectly cool.

Not everyone gets paid vacations. And adding to what the Major said, for many of our dedicated seniors a week at RSC is a week they're not spending at a higher-value (to them) CAP activity - this is pretty much where I'm at.
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"Anyone can hold the helm when the seas are calm ... leadership is about weathering the storm."

The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Briank
Member

Posts: 52
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2017, 06:13:24 PM »

I lose nearly all of my paid vacation time to all the various doctors visits, car repairs, and house repairs that life hands me.  I hear rumors we can do unpaid time off too.  I may pursue that if I'm able to survive long enough in CAP!  :-)
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,684

« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2017, 06:42:18 PM »

Paid what now?
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 92
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2017, 06:47:18 PM »

What is this "vacation" thing? How do I apply?
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,041

« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2017, 07:24:27 PM »

BTDT....I was able to attend and check all the boxes necessary with planning ahead.   Difficult to do with full time work and limited vacation time, family responsibilities, finances and the general ebb and flow of life.  Looked at how much time in grade was needed to fulfill the RSC and NSC requirements -- and worked that into the equation.  Had three years from the time I made Captain to meet the RSC requirements  and had 4 years from the time I made Major to attend NSC.  Discussion with the wife and planning paid off.  Able to attend both PD events and promote.    Still have to prioritize (at least for another few weeks until I retire) what CAP activities are must attend and work them into my family routine and work schedule -- and finances :)
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2017, 10:23:15 AM »

Riveraux, you don't have to attend your Region Staff College, you can attend a closer one to you if there is one?  Just a thought?
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 838

« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2017, 11:27:31 AM »

What is this "vacation" thing? How do I apply?

Right?

I planned to take vacation during this year's Encampment so I could staff. Unfortunately, it's the week before our big company audit, and boss told me "Maybe you can take 2 days off; we'll see closer to then." Urgh.


Now, I'll say, the online courses do provide an alternative to some of the in-person classroom training sessions. When I tried to sign up online, the process was tedious, as there were numerous technical issues because it was going through another wing. Even after I withdrew from the course and notified the persons I was told to, I was still getting information about the class. The participation/conference calls were during my unit meeting time, so no way was I sitting out of my meeting to attend an online class. It was a little excessive compared to what I took in college regarding online courses, but it works for some people.

I think CAP does do a nice job trying to get the volunteers to really dedicated their time and effort to trying to provide as many training opportunities as possible. It's frustrating at times because our planets don't always align, but I have a lot of respect for that effort.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,684

« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2017, 11:42:23 AM »

In light of the fact that grade confers no authority, responsibility, or personal monetary reward, the entirety of the CAP grade schema has
become very self-defeating, especially for those who are stuck on the bubble and now have to get things done by next year, with many of
those members, especially for the field grades, being literally the last bastions of experienced members CAP absolutely cannot afford to lose
given its current retention vector.

One thing a lot of people don't realize, or choose to ignore until they are in the thick of it, is that you can take the time, make the effort,
and spend the money, and still not get promoted..."because".  This situation can be one of the most demoralizing, counter-incentives
to continued membership of any in the CAP toolbox, and it happens all the time.

A member who quits because they feel slighted or unappreciated when the Major or Lt Col door closes takes 10 years or more to re-grow, assuming
they are ever replaced.

10 years. 

Members, as of writing this, are human, and given to the frailties of vanity, ego, even jealousy.  That's a given, and that knowledge is actually
one of the drivers behind >why< there is a CAP grade schema in the first place. Namely Napoleon's famous quote:
"A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon." Recognition of accomplishment is all CAP can offer of a tangible nature,
and despite the rhetoric to the contrary (which has ignored the reality for decades, if not longer), CAP grade >is< reward for work done, >not<
expectation of more responsibility, because there is no "expectation of more responsibility", in fact, the regulations actually prohibit
that very idea.

As we've seen time and again, both here and in person, people may "serve quietly", but they want and need recognition
in equal measures to those they view as peers, and even more importantly, those they feel don't contribute as much.
Unrecognized for too long, those people then quit quietly.

The organization as a whole would be much better off to leave grade for adult members by the curb and focus
on Professional Development as a value in and of itself, or at the least, make grade as a given based on PD and time.

Few are the members who pursue PD for its own sake, owing at least as much to the inconsistent nature of the
training itself and those presenting it.  For every TLC that ignites squadrons, there are ten which are barely tolerable,
presented by members who skimmed the material over coffee and have never worked with cadets.

For every RSC with a strong rep, there's at least one which is (or was) more of a band-camp for the staff and an SLS/CLC
rehash, versus any real preparation for staffing a wing or region.

On the whole, Members pursue PD to get promoted, and far too many at the last minute.  Absent promotions, most wouldn't bother.

Were grade left at the curb, and real requirements put into place regarding training and proficiency, CAP would be much better
off in the long run.

What it has today is another mess - a large number of members who will continue to serve but always feel they got "cheated"
out of their last promotion, mostly piling up at Captain, coupled with a much smaller number of FGOs who may or may not
have any more knowledge or ability, but were able to take the time for, not to mention could afford the cost of, the RSC and NSC.

As we discussed when the new requirements were announced, Level 4 and 5, not to mention Major and Lt Col, are now as much about
writing a check as any value the member brings to the organizaiton.

You see it already in the language here, and it comes up more and more in person as August 2018 gets nearer...

"Guess I'm stuck at Captain."

"I'll be a lifer Major."

...as if a door is closing unfairly (which it is), not to mention the fact that any new member doing the math
has to realize that the odds of exceeding Captain for anyone joining after Aug 2012, are much smaller then they were before, if they
exist at all, yet NHQ has done nothing to characterize the new climate or even really address it.

One has to wonder why, when pondering retention issues, this doesn't even appear to be on the list, despite the fact that
Unit CCs in the trenches have to deal with it on a regular basis.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 838

« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2017, 12:32:06 PM »

@ Eclipse,

I think this is where the Cadet Program and Senior Program promotion processes differ so greatly.

Regarding cadets, they have an active participation requirement. The Commander(s) must ensure that the unit's program provides the opportunity for advancement. A cadet who does not attend any of those opportunities for a year did that to himself/herself.

Regarding seniors, those opportunities may be rare albeit required for promotion. It can be really challenging for a senior to attend two classes that may be offered over the course of a year; some areas may only offer it once that year. So if a senior member cannot make that one April class, for example, he/she may have to wait until the following year, or find the means to "pay his/her way" to attend in other locale, perhaps another wing or region.

I, personally, think some of the criteria is excessive, such as the "attend a Wing Conference." Typically, our Wing Conferences are attached to a Professional Development training weekend. But what if it's not? What benefit is there aside from the social outing aspect or general discussion topics? That's not really "training" in my book from what I would expect of a leader learning a more advanced skill set to take on greater responsibilities.

Sometimes, (I might lose some of you older guys here) I compare the progression process to The Sims. "You must have at least 10 friends in order to advance to the next level."

But you're absolutely right. At the end of the day, most (and I emphasize that word) CAP members are human and do require that recognition at some point. They want/need a goal to aim for. That's just another retention tool. A member who shows up to every meeting, and is willing to take all of the online training, read up on subject matter, and puts fort the effort both inside and outside of the regular schedule of events who just cannot make that one weekend a year, or take that week off of work, might be held up from a promotion for an extensive period of time. This is when someone in my position, who does have people who report to me, has to say, "There's nothing I can do for you. You need to attend the conference. Try again next year?" Year
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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2017, 01:02:38 PM »

I have jumped through every PD hoop given, and now I have a PDO with more ego than anything else, refusing to help me with my check off for my Senior Rating in my Specialty track. Reason given: I dont have the time to read the regulations to ensure that you know what you are talking about. Went to Wing, was told, that is a a Squadron level issue, and ring around the Cessna begins
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,599

« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2017, 01:03:12 PM »

You're not wrong about scarcity of PD, but the CP and the "senior program" (hate that term) are not comparable as they have completely different purposes and expected outcomes.
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"Anyone can hold the helm when the seas are calm ... leadership is about weathering the storm."

The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,684

« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2017, 01:16:59 PM »

I have jumped through every PD hoop given, and now I have a PDO with more ego than anything else, refusing to help me with my check off for my Senior Rating in my Specialty track. Reason given: I dont have the time to read the regulations to ensure that you know what you are talking about. Went to Wing, was told, that is a a Squadron level issue, and ring around the Cessna begins

This is a Command issue and that's where you should take it.

Sounds like this is a "repair / replace" decision in regards to the PDO, since the above in bold is literally and his only job.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,529
Unit: of issue

« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2017, 01:39:41 PM »


This is a Command issue and that's where you should take it.

Sounds like this is a "repair / replace" decision in regards to the PDO, since the above in bold is literally and his only job.

This.

A long discussion needs to be had with your commander about this. Or a short one. Either way, you need to point this out.

I had a conversation with a PDO just last night in this regard. Apparently a 2nd Lt was not happy that a fellow (newer) 2nd Lt had been promoted to 1st Lt.  The new 1st Lt has actually taken steps to accomplish his Tech rating.  The 2nd Lt has not.

The PDO was like "Well, she's missing OBC and needs a tech rating."

"Right, have you done anything to help her get her tech rating signed off?  Have you talked to her about OBC?"

I love it when I get the blank look.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
chuckmilam
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2017, 02:16:59 PM »

You see it already in the language here, and it comes up more and more in person as August 2018 gets nearer...

"Guess I'm stuck at Captain."

"I'll be a lifer Major."

I'm missing this part of the conversation, I guess.  What happens in August 2018?
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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,023
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2017, 02:42:30 PM »

You see it already in the language here, and it comes up more and more in person as August 2018 gets nearer...

"Guess I'm stuck at Captain."

"I'll be a lifer Major."

I'm missing this part of the conversation, I guess.  What happens in August 2018?


Grandfathering of old promotion requirements ends.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,684

« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2017, 03:01:38 PM »

TIG increases for all but butter bar, bringing the minimum TIG from 0 to hero to 13.5 years vs. 10
under the pre-2014 program.

But more importantly, the Levels have shifted "up", now requiring LIV / RSC for Major and LV / NSC for Lt Col,
which means for a lot of members that will be too long a row to hoe.

In the interim, members are eligible to get 1-click up under the old program, whatever their next click would
be, and then have to catch-up the PD before they can be promoted further.

New requirements are below:

2d Lt Level I 6 months as a member
1st Lt Level II 18 months as 2d Lt or TFO (or combination thereof)
Captain Level III 30 months as 1st Lt or SFO (or combination thereof)
Major Level IV 4 years as Captain
Lt Col Level V 5 years as Major

On a general note, and no dig on you chuck, but this shows how this info isn't making it to the field.
Despite this change happening almost three years ago, a lot of members are unaware, which means
they will be caught offguard when they eventually get around to it (which is the PD plan for a lot of members).
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

chuckmilam
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2017, 03:14:47 PM »

No offense taken.  I'd been so involved in my own life milestones and then my CAP job-related stuff that I hadn't looked at CAPR 35-5 in years.  I didn't even realize those were new TIG requirements.   :-[
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EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,790

« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2017, 08:39:05 PM »

In light of the fact that grade confers no authority, responsibility, or personal monetary reward, the entirety of the CAP grade schema has become very self-defeating, especially for those who are stuck on the bubble and now have to get things done by next year, with many of those members, especially for the field grades, being literally the last bastions of experienced members CAP absolutely cannot afford to lose given its current retention vector.

One thing a lot of people don't realize, or choose to ignore until they are in the thick of it, is that you can take the time, make the effort, and spend the money, and still not get promoted..."because".  This situation can be one of the most demoralizing, counter-incentives to continued membership of any in the CAP toolbox, and it happens all the time.

A member who quits because they feel slighted or unappreciated when the Major or Lt Col door closes takes 10 years or more to re-grow, assuming they are ever replaced.

... [snip]

You have perfectly described my decision to not renew my membership.

With all the stars and planets in perfect alignment for my promotion to Lieutenant Colonel, I was informed that my promotion would never be approved unless I returned to Wing staff or accepted an assignment as Group Commander.

Never mind that I had a very successful tour at Wing and had returned to the squadron. “It’s not what you did for me yesterday, but what you’re going to do for me tomorrow.”

I could have fought it, but why bother? When something is no longer fun, it’s time to move on.

The funny thing is, I had always figured that I would top out as a Major and I was okay with that. But tell me that I can’t have something? Now that’s a different story.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
 


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