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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 659

« Reply #100 on: August 12, 2017, 09:28:57 PM »

So to recap this entire thread:

There are no real selling points or benefits to the NCO program as it exists today. 
  • Both Officer and NCO have the same PD requirements.
  • It is actually harder to get promoted as an NCO since the SNCO positions are duty position based so at most only 1 person can get promoted to CMSgt in each Wing every 4 years.  Only one person promoted to SMSgt every 3 years per Group or above, only one person promoted to MSgt every 2 years per squadron/flight.
  • You have to sew the rank on your blue/white shirt instead of using the epaulets (may be good or bad depending on your view)
  • In units with cadets it can be confusing for them when an NCO is the CC over Lt Cols and Majs
  • Concerning duty positions, no difference if an officer or NCO is filling it
  • Some consider it a recruiting tool but I'm not sure that CAP is really gaining that many people who would not have joined CAP without an NCO program


From my viewpoint it really boils down to if you want to wear your rank on your sleeve or shoulder and that is a personal decision.  Everything else is the same.  Until there are duties that only an NCO can fill, there really is not any point in having these positions. 
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,120

« Reply #101 on: August 12, 2017, 10:03:48 PM »

IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military and this is absolutely true the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,788

« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2017, 09:56:49 AM »

The original NCO Corps Implementation Plan dated Oct 17, 2013, section 4.3 stated:
"Duty Positions: NCO's will be eligible to hold any position within CAP, including pilot, except those normally reserved for officers (e.g. Unit Commanders) and will be assigned at any CAP organizational level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Region or National Headquarters. Where possible, assignments will be rank appropriate and consider the member's professional development training, professional military skills and professional and personal goals. CAP Senior NCO's (MSgt, SMSgt, and CMsgt) may be in charge of a unit designated as a flight (if there are no other officers assigned); however, NCO's will not be authorized to command a Squadron, Group, Wing, or Region."

The CAP News release dated Oct 23, 2013 says the same thing:
"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels squadron, group, wing, region or national except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

While there is no current regulatory guidance about a CAP NCO unable to be assigned as a unit CC, there was a Draft Input to CAPR 20-1 released to current CAP NCO's earlier this year that uses the exact wording above from the original Implementation Plan.  This draft also includes the suggested wording for the duties of the Staff NCO's at each echelon.  So if we ever see the release of the updated 20-1 that includes the NCO information we will have the answer to this question.  Until then, we are making due with what we have.

So this is all based on an "idea paper" that is neither directive nor regulatory. We're also going into the third National Commander since this whole caper took shape, with no end in sight. Got it. Thanks.
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Strup
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grunt82abn
Forum Regular

Posts: 187

« Reply #103 on: August 14, 2017, 12:43:38 PM »

IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military and this is absolutely true the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.

So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me! 
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,120

« Reply #104 on: August 14, 2017, 12:54:44 PM »

IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military and this is absolutely true the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.

So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
I did not say ego TRIP, I said ego STROKING. Different things. And yes, I have seen CAP NCOs come in and start chewing out other CAP members, up to Lt Col, because the officers did not recognize the NCO's inherent superiority. Never mind one of those was a retired NCO, who decided to go the officer route as it fit in with the CAP culture. Also, the CAP MSgt who went around pointing at their stripes telling other CAP members "when  you see these, think Lt Col."

Quote
I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
So, being an NCO make you feel better about yourself. Got it. Ego stroked.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:59:03 PM by arajca » Logged
grunt82abn
Forum Regular

Posts: 187

« Reply #105 on: August 14, 2017, 01:02:47 PM »

IMNSHO:
The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military and this is absolutely true the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.
Points:
1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?
2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.
3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.

The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.

So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
I did not say ego TRIP, I said ego STROKING. Different things.

Quote
I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
So, being an NCO make you feel better about yourself. Got it. Ego stroked.
The only thing that makes me feel better about myself is to do what is expected of me, and complete tasks and missions regardless of what rank I wear. They could take away my rank, and it wouldn't matter.
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
Jester
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Posts: 169

« Reply #106 on: August 14, 2017, 01:06:21 PM »

Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.
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grunt82abn
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Posts: 187

« Reply #107 on: August 14, 2017, 01:13:12 PM »

Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.

That is absolutely awesome!
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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Eclipse
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« Reply #108 on: August 14, 2017, 03:22:01 PM »

Wait, what?  Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking?  And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't?

How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members.  All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman.

We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now.

Whatever, dude.

OK, so I don't really disagree with anything here on the mean, however this divisiveness is hardly "Total F..." well anything, and just shows
exactly how much of a problem this idea is, and how it will be unworkable as anything but the current status quo.

...I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.

NCOs do >NOT< own the market on leadership.

This statement and attitude, however, is the root of the issue.  These humble brags about being "all about the mission and the people" instead of the bling,
as if that was true in both directions, and specific to the person, not the situation.

This "too cool for school" attitude is the actual issue.

I have no doubt you are an outstanding member and contributor to the cause, but that has literally nothing
to do with your grade or NCO vs. officer status and everything to do with what you bring to the table and
how you perform.

Being an Air Force NCO may have brought you those lessons, but there's plenty of other ways to become a
leader, and those who preen and pump with their plummage are as much victims of the lack of CAP leadership and
mentorship as examples of "true" CAP members.
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Jester
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Posts: 169

« Reply #109 on: August 14, 2017, 05:01:18 PM »

I'll try to keep this reply as orderly as I can, I don't know how to multi-quote or whatever in tapatalk.

1) it is workable in the long term. It's a proven structure in any successful military/SDF/etc.

2) in a proper organization, NCOs are the market-owners on tactical-level (i.e. Squadron) leadership of individuals and small teams.

3) that's me, "too cool for school", constantly reading applicable content on dealing with adolescents, going to training on my own initiative to learn how to deal with special needs adolescents, etc to deal with my own identified blindspots and shortfalls as it relates to CAP. I don't think I'm the only one who does that kind of stuff but I won't sit here and be labeled as someone who thinks he has all the answers.

4) my contribution has everything to do with me being at the proper grade for the proper level and scope of influence.  A Major doesn't need to be a tactical-level cadet programs officer. He needs to be a CC or on a squadron/group/wing staff. The fact that a Lt Col can work for a 1Lt is out of my span of control. It is what it is, but I own my lane and that's all there is to it.

5) overall, I'm inexplicably tired of putting everything I have into my sector of this organization and my cadets and then see yet another multi-page thread crapping on me and the other 150-200 members who picked a different way to serve, told we're some kind of big problem with CAP, blah blah blah. I'm over it.  I'm here to dig out any shred of knowledge I can put to use. I'll go back to doing that, and the rest of CAPTalk can go back to arguing over what constitutes "medium gray" or whatever the controversy of the day is.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #110 on: August 14, 2017, 05:26:09 PM »

Who's "crapping" on anyone?
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 659

« Reply #111 on: August 14, 2017, 08:01:20 PM »

I'll try to keep this reply as orderly as I can, I don't know how to multi-quote or whatever in tapatalk.

1) it is workable in the long term. It's a proven structure in any successful military/SDF/etc.

2) in a proper organization, NCOs are the market-owners on tactical-level (i.e. Squadron) leadership of individuals and small teams.

3) that's me, "too cool for school", constantly reading applicable content on dealing with adolescents, going to training on my own initiative to learn how to deal with special needs adolescents, etc to deal with my own identified blindspots and shortfalls as it relates to CAP. I don't think I'm the only one who does that kind of stuff but I won't sit here and be labeled as someone who thinks he has all the answers.

4) my contribution has everything to do with me being at the proper grade for the proper level and scope of influence.  A Major doesn't need to be a tactical-level cadet programs officer. He needs to be a CC or on a squadron/group/wing staff. The fact that a Lt Col can work for a 1Lt is out of my span of control. It is what it is, but I own my lane and that's all there is to it.

5) overall, I'm inexplicably tired of putting everything I have into my sector of this organization and my cadets and then see yet another multi-page thread crapping on me and the other 150-200 members who picked a different way to serve, told we're some kind of big problem with CAP, blah blah blah. I'm over it.  I'm here to dig out any shred of knowledge I can put to use. I'll go back to doing that, and the rest of CAPTalk can go back to arguing over what constitutes "medium gray" or whatever the controversy of the day is.

All good points but I think miss how a military NCO fits into the CAP organization.  As as been stated here numerous times a CAP NCO can hold any duty position within a squadron or group so what is the point of having NCOs in that regard?

As for NCOs in a "proper organization" being the "market-owners on a tactical-level" you are correct when there is a division of responsibilities between officers and NCOs and that is not the case with CAP.

I'm certainly not picking on you or the other hand full of individuals who chose the CAP NCO path, my issue is with the organization and implementation of the NCO program.  I don't think most of the people on this thread are against having NCOs, they are against how the program is being implemented.  It is also a solution desperately searching for a problem.  I know in my Wing there are about 5 CAP NCOs so there are not enough "tactical-level" leaders.  That number is not going to grow much if the program is not viable.

CAP is a volunteer organization with limited funding.  Any program should be reviewed for its value to the organization.  In this case, is the CAP NCO program a value added addition to CAP?  I personally do not see it as a good recruiting tool and I certainly do not see it as a value add to CAP. 

While CAP is the USAF auxiliary and  has adopted a military style command structure, it is not a military organization and it does not have the time or funding to train NCOs and officers like the military does.   You simply can't equate the responsibilities and duties of a CAP NCO with that of a military NCO.  That military NCO has responsibilities that officers do not but a CAP NCO has the exact same responsibilities as a CAP officer holding the same duty position.
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grunt82abn
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Posts: 187

« Reply #112 on: August 14, 2017, 08:21:44 PM »

If we are not a military organization, then why anyone care what I wear on my sleeves or collars? It costs CAP nothing to allow me to wear NCO rank. I paid for it, and the cost to sew it on. I go to the same schools, do the same job, offer my skill sets, wear the same uniforms, I'm just like everyone else, I just put on a different design. If it means nothing, then no one should have a problem with what I choose to wear as long as I meet or exceed the 39-1.

If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.
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Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #113 on: August 14, 2017, 09:33:10 PM »

TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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Fubar
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« Reply #114 on: August 14, 2017, 10:51:03 PM »

If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.

We gained 200-300 members from tweaking the NCO program?
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grunt82abn
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Posts: 187

« Reply #115 on: August 14, 2017, 11:04:31 PM »

If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.

We gained 200-300 members from tweaking the NCO program?
I said IF allowing people to wear rank, doesn't mean I quoted an actual number. My point is that if allowing people to wear NCO rank,  and that's what gets them through the door, then to me it's worth it. I suppose your against it, but most are. If people feel the NCO rank isn't worth it, or absolutely despise the rank, draft a plan and send it to NHQ to remove the NCO rank structure. Maybe the new National Commander will listen and take it away to make the majority of CAP SM happy. Because clearly there is some animosity toward NCO's, and I'm not just talking here on CAPTalk


TSGT Sean Riley
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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grunt82abn
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« Reply #116 on: August 14, 2017, 11:06:06 PM »

TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Great point!


TSGT Sean Riley
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2017, 07:41:30 AM »

TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Great point!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Yes it is, SGT.  Like so many other "ideas", this one has not gained support after birth, and is quietly fading away.  Why? Because it does not truly fit into CAP's real strategic goals.  Wear your stripes proudly, and be an example to your fellow members, however don't expect much to change.  Grade Structure in CAP has evolved over the decades, but the officer/airman divide will never come again.  CAP respects your AF grade by letting you wear it.  Just remember, we have had Military Colonels and Generals join CAP to become CAP Lt COLs, or even stay as SMWOGs!  Enjoy your membership.
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grunt82abn
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Posts: 187

« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2017, 08:28:56 AM »

TSgt Riley,

Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Great point!


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042

Yes it is, SGT.  Like so many other "ideas", this one has not gained support after birth, and is quietly fading away.  Why? Because it does not truly fit into CAP's real strategic goals.  Wear your stripes proudly, and be an example to your fellow members, however don't expect much to change.  Grade Structure in CAP has evolved over the decades, but the officer/airman divide will never come again.  CAP respects your AF grade by letting you wear it.  Just remember, we have had Military Colonels and Generals join CAP to become CAP Lt COLs, or even stay as SMWOGs!  Enjoy your membership.
Thanks Boss! Having fun still and enjoy my squadron!



TSGT Sean Riley
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Sean Riley, TSGT
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 659

« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2017, 09:06:26 AM »

If we are not a military organization, then why anyone care what I wear on my sleeves or collars? It costs CAP nothing to allow me to wear NCO rank. I paid for it, and the cost to sew it on. I go to the same schools, do the same job, offer my skill sets, wear the same uniforms, I'm just like everyone else, I just put on a different design. If it means nothing, then no one should have a problem with what I choose to wear as long as I meet or exceed the 39-1.

Again you are missing the point.  I don't think anyone cares if you are wearing stripes or not.  The issue is with the program, not the individual so please stop trying to make this about you because it really isn't.

I chose to be a CAP officer for my own reasons and you chose to be a CAP NCO for your own reasons and neither is a wrong choice.

When you say it costs CAP nothing to allow you to wear the rank, that is true but to create, implement and update the NCO program does have a cost to CAP (money, volunteer time, credibility, etc) just like any other program that CAP puts into place.  That cost may be large or small but the point is that the current CAP program is just not a good idea as implemented.  The previous program where you could keep your rank but not get promoted was not much better. 

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
 


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