Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 17, 2017, 03:50:24 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: "On a Wing and a Prayer" (1944 film)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print
Author Topic: "On a Wing and a Prayer" (1944 film)  (Read 2485 times)
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« on: December 28, 2016, 06:07:30 PM »

I watched this classic WWII film last night and I was truly shocked at how historically inaccurate it was. Like many older Americans, I grew up on these movies. They were a staple of late-night TV when I was a boy. I'm a bit more sophisticated historical than I was then

The film is about the Battle of Midway. Of course, I did not expect that the breaking of the Japanese Code (Known as "Magic") would be shown shown. This was 1944 and its breaking was still a secret.. The film claimed that the Navy deduced that MIdway Island would be the next Japanese target, as a stepping-stone to an invasion of Hawaii. Of course we know now that there was no Japanese plan to invade Hawaii and capturing Midway was just pushing out the Japanese defense line with the expectation that this would disrupt material supply to Australia, and the hope that it would draw out the remains of the US Pacific fleet for destruction.

The real historical inaccuracy was in the way the battle was depicted. Grumman TBF Avenger torpedo bombers are shown dropping their torpedoes that churn on to blowup and sink the Japanese aircraft carriers.

The real story of the battle is well-known. Due to a fubar common to military operations, the US dive bombers and the US torpedo bombers become separated and instead of a coordinated attack as per plan, the  TBD torpedo bombers  arrive first and carried out their attack. Their fighter escorts had turned back to the carrier because of lack of fuel. The Japanese CAP (combat air patrol) dived toward the surface and utterly destroyed the TBDs. Sixty-five out of severty-one American TDBs were destroyed. There were no Japanese losses. Further,
because of defective US torpedoes all that were able to be launched missed or failed to explode.
[/b] Subsequently, an attack by another TBD squadron drew the remainder of the CAP down to the deck.

By luck, just after this massacre,, three USN SBD dive bomber squadrons arrived. With the Japanese CAP at low altitudes, the SBDs were able to carry out unimpeded attacks on the Japanese carriers whose decks were packed with aircraft being bombed up for a second attack on Midway. Three of the carriers were set aflame by the dive-bombing. Another Japanese carrier was subsequently sunk also by dive-bombers. Midway was a turning point in the Pacific War because Japan lost so many of her aircraft carriers and, even more importantly, a large proportion of her well-trained pre-war aviators. While the Japanese still had a very strong surface force near Midway, without air cover it was an easy target during the day the Japanese were compelled to withdraw.

So "A Wing and a Prayer" was utterly inaccurate in showing USN torpedo bombers sinking aircraft carriers at Midway.

BTW, the failure of US torpedoes through the middle of WWII is one of the lesser-known but more important stories of WWIII. Unbelievably, NO US torpedoes had been operationally tested because they were too expensive. The torpedoes  had multiple problems with detonators (called "exploders" by the USN) and guidance systems  so they were almost useless until the issues were finally addressed in late 1943. Primarily, the Navy choose to blame sub commanders for their boats lack of success.  One of the greatest scandals in US naval history.      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_14_torpedo
Logged
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,535

« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2016, 06:27:22 PM »

The same with Air Force.

This film was made in 1943. The "facts" from it was that Pearl Harbor happened, about a week after the Philippines fell, then about another week, Japan was defeated at Midway.

 ???

Another "fact" about the B-17D. This airplane could have a tail machine gun by just sawing off about half a feet of its tail and plopping down a machine gun on a swivel joint, and having a gunner lying down on the floor.

 ??? ???

And Wake?

The last American killed in Wake was the radio operator who kept transmitting as a Japanese soldier bayoneted him. This after a very spirited battle.

 ??? ??? ???

Do not let these historical "facts" of any of these movies deter you from enjoying them. In a sense they are classics!

 ;)
Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2016, 07:13:02 PM »

The same with Air Force.

This film was made in 1943. The "facts" from it was that Pearl Harbor happened, about a week after the Philippines fell, then about another week, Japan was defeated at Midway.

Do not let these historical "facts" of any of these movies deter you from enjoying them. In a sense they are classics!

 ;)

If I recall "Air Force" correctly, it began showing sabotage by Japanese-Americans against USAAF aircraft at Pearl Harbor. I think a Japanese driven truck drives around an airfield knocking the tails off aircraft. Of course this never happened.

Might be worthwhile for a disclaimer of this slander on Japanese Americans to be attached to DVDs of the film. Don't want people believing this.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_(film)

Anti-Japanese propaganda in the film included scenes in which the crew is forced to land on Maui Island and is shot at by "local Japanese," and the assertion by the Hickam Field commander that vegetable trucks knocked off the tails of parked P-40 fighters as the attack began. Also, Lt. Rader claims a Japanese blocked the road in front of him, as he hurried to the airfield, and them shot at him with a shotgun. As detailed in Walter Lord's book Day of Infamy, later investigations proved no Japanese-American was involved in any sabotage during the Pearl Harbor attack.
Logged
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,535

« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2016, 07:16:44 PM »

I do not recall that specific scene -- the trucks -- but it did have Japanese taking pot shots at American airplanes and at the Mary Ann after it landed in Hawaii.


Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,885

« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2016, 08:28:22 PM »

Guys, just about any movie about the military that was made during the war can rightfully be called propaganda.
The object was to build morale.
The exact same thing applied to the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets" which was made in 1968 during Vietnam.
Didn't seem to bother The Duke at all.
Logged
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,824

« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2016, 08:28:43 PM »

Remember, these films were as much propaganda as they were entertainment. The hope was that able-bodied young men would be inspired to rush out of the theater and into the nearest recruiting office.

The war in the Pacific was not going well at this point, with Europe being the priority. Any shortcomings wouldn’t have been put on display.
Logged
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2016, 08:36:10 PM »

I do not recall that specific scene -- the trucks -- but it did have Japanese taking pot shots at American airplanes and at the Mary Ann after it landed in Hawaii.

I looked for a free, legal version of "Wing and a Prayer" and "Air Force" online for the benefit of others but couldn't find them.

Found this though: Highlights Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft

https://archive.org/details/CS-2937

Lots of other FREE AF and WWII historical footage at https://archive.org

I showed the original "Memphis Belle" to Cadets for AE. They were bored. They don't realize that real war is 99% boredom and 1% terror. Also not enough dramatic deaths like modern films. FREE at: https://archive.org/details/gov.dod.dimoc.26134
Logged
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2016, 08:38:16 PM »

Guys, just about any movie about the military that was made during the war can rightfully be called propaganda.
The object was to build morale.
The exact same thing applied to the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets" which was made in 1968 during Vietnam.
Didn't seem to bother The Duke at all.

I agree 100%. My concern is that the non-historical scenes of Japanese-American sabotage at Pearl Harbor might be taken as truth by viewers not as well informed as us.
Logged
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,824

« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2016, 08:49:57 PM »

I just watched "Air Force" on my TCM app (my favorite app, which I highly recommend).  The inaccuracies didn’t bother me as much as contemporary movies, such as “Pearl Harbor” from 2001.
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2016, 09:06:56 AM »

Guys, just about any movie about the military that was made during the war can rightfully be called propaganda.
The object was to build morale.
The exact same thing applied to the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets" which was made in 1968 during Vietnam.
Didn't seem to bother The Duke at all.

Hehe...Gustav Hasford wrote a scene in The Short Timers about the shortcomings of the film. Pretty much summed it up.

I want to echo the "propaganda" response. Look at any of the films produced about the war and during the war (I'm looking at you, WAKE ISLAND) and you'll see that they were written with a specific goal in mind. Even films that came out shortly after the war, such as The Best Years of Our Lives, took on the mindset of the nation at the time. From a technical military tactics and equipment standpoint, they were secondary to the message. That trend continues to this day. Look at films like Swofford's JARHEAD, and Zero-Dark Thirty. They had little to do with the actual day to day, but were written to influence opinion and win hearts and minds.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 09:13:54 AM by THRAWN » Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2016, 09:07:42 AM »

Guys, just about any movie about the military that was made during the war can rightfully be called propaganda.
The object was to build morale.
The exact same thing applied to the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets" which was made in 1968 during Vietnam.
Didn't seem to bother The Duke at all.

I agree 100%. My concern is that the non-historical scenes of Japanese-American sabotage at Pearl Harbor might be taken as truth by viewers not as well informed as us.

The film's been around for 70 years. I think people got the message already.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2016, 06:17:21 PM »

Guys, just about any movie about the military that was made during the war can rightfully be called propaganda.
The object was to build morale.
The exact same thing applied to the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets" which was made in 1968 during Vietnam.
Didn't seem to bother The Duke at all.

I agree 100%. My concern is that the non-historical scenes of Japanese-American sabotage at Pearl Harbor might be taken as truth by viewers not as well informed as us.

The film's been around for 70 years. I think people got the message already.

I think that you might be confused. The problem is that the message the film provides is that Japanese Americans committed traitorous sabotage that contributed to the US defeat at Pearl Harbor. They did not. However this belief, which was widespread, was one of the factors that lead to the forced internment of Japanese-American citizens.

Fortunately these days few people will view this film. I'm just suggesting that DVDs of it sold could contain a disclaimer stating that the scenes depicting Japanese-American treason were erroneous.



Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2016, 10:02:16 PM »

Guys, just about any movie about the military that was made during the war can rightfully be called propaganda.
The object was to build morale.
The exact same thing applied to the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets" which was made in 1968 during Vietnam.
Didn't seem to bother The Duke at all.

I agree 100%. My concern is that the non-historical scenes of Japanese-American sabotage at Pearl Harbor might be taken as truth by viewers not as well informed as us.

The film's been around for 70 years. I think people got the message already.

I think that you might be confused. The problem is that the message the film provides is that Japanese Americans committed traitorous sabotage that contributed to the US defeat at Pearl Harbor. They did not. However this belief, which was widespread, was one of the factors that lead to the forced internment of Japanese-American citizens.

Fortunately these days few people will view this film. I'm just suggesting that DVDs of it sold could contain a disclaimer stating that the scenes depicting Japanese-American treason were erroneous.

Yeah, maybe not those specific incidents, but Japanese Americans DID commit traitorous attacks during that battle. So, the belief did have basis in fact. Its hard to disclaimer "life"...

V/r
Spam
Logged
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2016, 05:07:35 PM »

Guys, just about any movie about the military that was made during the war can rightfully be called propaganda.
The object was to build morale.
The exact same thing applied to the John Wayne movie "The Green Berets" which was made in 1968 during Vietnam.
Didn't seem to bother The Duke at all.

I agree 100%. My concern is that the non-historical scenes of Japanese-American sabotage at Pearl Harbor might be taken as truth by viewers not as well informed as us.

The film's been around for 70 years. I think people got the message already.

I think that you might be confused. The problem is that the message the film provides is that Japanese Americans committed traitorous sabotage that contributed to the US defeat at Pearl Harbor. They did not. However this belief, which was widespread, was one of the factors that lead to the forced internment of Japanese-American citizens.

Fortunately these days few people will view this film. I'm just suggesting that DVDs of it sold could contain a disclaimer stating that the scenes depicting Japanese-American treason were erroneous.

Yeah, maybe not those specific incidents, but Japanese Americans DID commit traitorous attacks during that battle. So, the belief did have basis in fact. Its hard to disclaimer "life"...

V/r
Spam

I'm always willing to learn so, I would be grateful if you could supply references to support your assertion " Japanese Americans DID commit traitorous attacks during that battle."

I'm aware of that cited in: "In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror" by Michelle Malkin but I would be appreciate information on any others. Thanks.
Logged
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,535

« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2016, 05:20:34 PM »

In the National Archives there are references that some Japanese living in the West Coast did have radios, and contacted Japanese outside of the United States.
Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2016, 07:53:41 PM »

Ni'ihau, for one. Yoshio and Irene Harada, born in Hawai'i of Japanese descent. Harada fought alongside a crashed IJN pilot against American citizens.

For another, Yoshikawa, who carried out the humint pre attack prep, was a reserve ensign, not a Japanese American. He was however driven around to gather the intel by two nisei, John Mikami and Richard Kotoshirodo, who knew full well that his repeated and regular visits to local installations and the base to gather targeting data were in support of a pending attack.

That's not counting the other instances of treason such as the three Shi-tara sisters, later on, or Iva Toguri d’Aquino. Or, the thousands who refused to sign a loyalty pledge and were sent to Tule Lake (five thousand of whom renounced US citizenship).

(Note for mods: the name of the sisters is as quoted but without the hyphen. This isn't an attempt to subvert the curse filter)


Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2016, 07:54:27 PM »


http://www.hawaiireporter.com/niihau-incident-benehakaka-ben-kanahele-wwii-medal-for-merit-purple-heart-1891-1962/123



Logged
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2017, 05:12:47 PM »

In the National Archives there are references that some Japanese living in the West Coast did have radios, and contacted Japanese outside of the United States.

I've searched the National Archives and there are no records of traitorous radio messages by Japanese-Americans. You might be confusing  messages by Japanese agents in embassies and consulate offices. These were not Japanese-Americans but rather Japanese nationals. That's not to say that there wasn't, perhaps, very rare espionage by Japanese-Americans that was undetected but there's no record of it in the National Archives and it must have been minimal if unreported there.

cf: https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/1996/fall/butow.html

Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2017, 06:29:13 PM »

See:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/internment-scandal/


"Although the DOD released the ultra-secret MAGIC files in 1977, the commission, with its huge staff and millions of taxpayers’ dollars, was either ignorant of the files or chose to ignore them. What MAGIC reveals is stunning: hundreds of resident Japanese were acting as spies, feeding information to Japan. If the U.S. had arrested the individual spies, it would have revealed to Japan that her codes had been broken. Faced with a similar dilemma, Prime Minister Winston Churchill allowed Coventry to be bombed without warning".

"Throughout 1941, the U.S. frequently intercepted reports of resident aliens and Japanese Americans providing information to Japanese agents. In a decrypted message on May 9, for example, a Japanese agent in Los Angeles reports, “We have already established contact with absolutely reliable Japanese in the San Pedro and San Diego area, who will keep a close watch on all shipments of airplanes and other war materials …. We shall maintain connection with our second generations who are at present in the [U.S.] Army, to keep us informed of various developments in the Army. We also have connections with our second generations working in airplane plants for intelligence purposes.”

"Through coded transmissions to an offshore ship, Kotoshirodo’s intelligence was relayed to Japan. Since a trial would have revealed that the U.S. had not only intercepted the signals but had decrypted them, Kotoshirodo was simply transported to Topaz relocation center in Utah".


See:
http://internmentarchives.com/magic.php
Examples of specific west coast Japanese American espionage (original sources):
http://internmentarchives.com/showdoc.php?docid=00418&search_id=&pagenum=2


Although numerous apologists frequently repeat the claim that no espionage ever happened, a more correct truth appears to be that the USG actually chose to quietly prosecute very few of the bad actors, in the interest of preserving methods and sources. The accounts do show that many Japanese Americans were quite active against the US (which should not detract anything from the valor shown by the thousands of patriotic Japanese Americans who served with honor, c.f. 442nd RCT).


V/r
Spam


Logged
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2017, 06:33:37 PM »

The main source of evidence that you have offered: Magic: The Untold Story of U.S. Intelligence and the Evacuation of Japanese Residents from the West Coast During Ww II was not reviewed by any impartial, legitimate historical journal that I can find.

As a general rule, books that are considered to lack substance are just ignored - - rather than negatively reviewed. The lack of reviews by experts means that it is hard for non-experts like us to be informed on the quality of the evidence.

The publisher, Athena Press, is seems very odd  -- it apparently has published only two books in its history. It looks to me like a "vanity press", a fake publisher that has books printed for it, usually because the author pays for it when no legitimate publisher would take the book.

http://www.athenapressinc.com/buy.htm

You can read the controversy about this book in the Amazon reviews at:

https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Intelligence-Evacuation-Japanese-Residents/dp/0960273611
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2017, 07:14:53 PM »

Oh, Amazon reviews. There is an authorative source. BLUF nobody is going to assist you in the "clean up" of old films so they fit your definition of what is right and wrong.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2017, 07:19:17 PM »

Pfff. Not much of a controversy at all, from those comments.

You don't like the original source documents, so you start attacking some small publisher for being small, as a way to discredit the  argument? Right. Ad hominem in lieu of a rational argument.


You're really floundering there.

Spam

Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,082

« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2017, 07:20:58 PM »

BLUF nobody is going to assist you in the "clean up" of old films so they fit your definition of what is right and wrong.

Seriously - I mean for years it was insisted that Deckard wasn't a replicant, then in 2000 Sir Scott indicated, somewhat authoritatively,
and based on "evidence" readily available, that he was.

Now there is apparently new information recently uncovered and set for public release in Oct 2017. 

Will the public ever know the truth?
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 970
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2017, 07:22:38 PM »

Oh, Amazon reviews. There is an authorative source. BLUF nobody is going to assist you in the "clean up" of old films so they fit your definition of what is right and wrong.


Yeah, the irony in his quoting Amazon reviews as authoritative, while at the same time attacking another source presenting source documentation, is stunning.

V/r
Spam



Logged
RRLE
Seasoned Member

Posts: 488

« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2017, 11:48:02 PM »

The publisher, Athena Press, is seems very odd  -- it apparently has published only two books in its history. It looks to me like a "vanity press", a fake publisher that has books printed for it, usually because the author pays for it when no legitimate publisher would take the book.

It is more than odd.

Minereva Press Deceived And Defrauded Us

That is a link to a letter to the FL AG asking for an investigation of Minereva/Athena. A quote from that site:

Quote
Minereva Press Changed Name To Athena Press
 And Deceived And Defrauded Us
 WITHIN THE STATE OF FLORIDA
 AND THEY ARE STILL REGISTERED IN FLORIDA
 Sir, I have been deceived and defrauded by Minerva Press, which changed name to Athena Press and is registered in the State of Florida. Here is our documented experience in the hands of ATHENA (MINERVA) PRESS. I was not an author by profession so I knew next to nothing about book publishing at the time I started dealing with MINERVA now ATHENA PRESS. They have virtually ruined my writing career.

I verified thru the FL Division of Corporations that statements about the name change are true. It happened on Mar 18, 2002 in FL. Athena Press is a foreign corporation in FL, it is really incorporated or was incorporated in DE. The FL registration as a foreign corporation expired on 09/19/2003 due to failure to file the annual report.

Athena Press in the US appears tied to a corporation with a similar name in the UK. The officers listed on the original FL registration have UK addresses. The UK company is a vanity publisher.

There is more "good stuff" about Athena in the AG letter. I wouldn't say they are reputable.
Logged
RRLE
Seasoned Member

Posts: 488

« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2017, 12:01:50 AM »

Here is a FL court case, Henin vs Athena Press Ltd that backs up some of the assertions in the AG letter of my prior post.

I found 5 corporations registered in DL with Athena Press in their name.

ATHENA PRESS INC. 8/11/1988
ATHENA PRESS L.L.C. 12/28/1998
ATHENA PRESS PUBLISHING CO. 5/4/1999
ATHENA PRESS, INC. 12/4/1978
ATHENAPRESS.COM LLC 1/18/2000

Since the court opinion states the US company ceased operations, I wouldn't bother paying the $10 fee per corp to find out the current status.
Logged
RRLE
Seasoned Member

Posts: 488

« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2017, 12:06:35 AM »

It gets better.

From Worldwide Watches Scam

Quote
It was a terrible mistake for me to deal with a company as dishonest as Minerva Press, which changed name to Athena Press after being sued and wound up by cheated authors. It was quite painful to find out that while they were being sued by cheated authors, they told us they were changing name and relocating from Miami, Florida, in USA to Twickenham in the United Kingdom. They collected $6,080.00 from me and almost the same amount from another author I introduced to them.

 They are at it again, filing for voluntary liquidation and changing name from Athena Press to Wilbury Solutions Limited masterminded by Messrs Mark Sykes, David Moore and Alison Austen in relationship with another company called FastPrint Publishers. They are still collecting books and money from new, unwary, trusting authors and they must be stopped.
Logged
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2017, 09:26:48 PM »

Oh, Amazon reviews. There is an authorative source. BLUF nobody is going to assist you in the "clean up" of old films so they fit your definition of what is right and wrong.


Yeah, the irony in his quoting Amazon reviews as authoritative, while at the same time attacking another source presenting source documentation, is stunning.

V/r
Spam

I think the irony is that you claim I presented Amazon reviews as an "authoritative source" while I all  actually stated "you can read the controversy about this book in the Amazon reviews at:"

I would appreciate it if you did not claim I stated something when  I did not - - - and it makes you look right foolish when any reader can  just just check back and see f themselves that what you state is untrue.

I have not read all of "Magic: The Untold Story of U.S. Intelligence and the Evacuation of Japanese Residents from the West Coast During WW II" but that fact that no reputable historical source reviewed it and that it comes from a disreputable publisher  make it suspect.

In any case, so far as I can tell  the book does not contain records of any sabotage or intelligence actually obtained from or by Japanese-Americans but only the diplomats'  belief that they could be obtained.

It's a great leap from what some diplomats write they hope to get and what they actually got. As noted by others, there were very few actual prosecutions of Japanese-Americans for espionage.

This lack of prosecutions and lack of real evidence of spying or sabotage does not mean that the internment of Japanese-Americans was not justified given the conditions of wartime emergency but ""Magic: The Untold Story..." it does not justify claims that there actually was sabotage and spying.

Finally, let me return to my initial posts which were about wartime films, "A Wing and a Prayer" and "Air Force". I objected to the later films's depiction of sabotage by Japanese-Americans during the Pearl Harbor attack. (The film depicted Japanese-Americans driving farm trucks onto US airfields smashing American warplanes.)  This and other acts of sabotage depicted in the film were fictitious; probably an attempt to shift blame for the USAAF's unpreparedness the USAAF has responsibility for protecting Pearl Harbor from air attack) as well as to stir up more hatred against the Japanese (and Japanese-Americans).
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2017, 10:12:12 AM »

Oh, Amazon reviews. There is an authorative source. BLUF nobody is going to assist you in the "clean up" of old films so they fit your definition of what is right and wrong.


Yeah, the irony in his quoting Amazon reviews as authoritative, while at the same time attacking another source presenting source documentation, is stunning.

V/r
Spam

I think the irony is that you claim I presented Amazon reviews as an "authoritative source" while I all  actually stated "you can read the controversy about this book in the Amazon reviews at:"

I would appreciate it if you did not claim I stated something when  I did not - - - and it makes you look right foolish when any reader can  just just check back and see f themselves that what you state is untrue.

I have not read all of "Magic: The Untold Story of U.S. Intelligence and the Evacuation of Japanese Residents from the West Coast During WW II" but that fact that no reputable historical source reviewed it and that it comes from a disreputable publisher  make it suspect.

In any case, so far as I can tell  the book does not contain records of any sabotage or intelligence actually obtained from or by Japanese-Americans but only the diplomats'  belief that they could be obtained.

It's a great leap from what some diplomats write they hope to get and what they actually got. As noted by others, there were very few actual prosecutions of Japanese-Americans for espionage.

This lack of prosecutions and lack of real evidence of spying or sabotage does not mean that the internment of Japanese-Americans was not justified given the conditions of wartime emergency but ""Magic: The Untold Story..." it does not justify claims that there actually was sabotage and spying.

Finally, let me return to my initial posts which were about wartime films, "A Wing and a Prayer" and "Air Force". I objected to the later films's depiction of sabotage by Japanese-Americans during the Pearl Harbor attack. (The film depicted Japanese-Americans driving farm trucks onto US airfields smashing American warplanes.)  This and other acts of sabotage depicted in the film were fictitious; probably an attempt to shift blame for the USAAF's unpreparedness the USAAF has responsibility for protecting Pearl Harbor from air attack) as well as to stir up more hatred against the Japanese (and Japanese-Americans).

That's exactly what the film was designed to do. It was wartime propaganda to generate moral outrage and cast the enemy as the "bad guy". Popular culture has always done this, and continues to do it, and will continue to do it. Your objection is noted and over ruled. You can't impose 2016/7 SJW values on 70 year old films/books/magazines/Halsey's billboards. What's next? Disclaimers in Huck Finn? Roots? How about just ban them outright?

As far as the Amazon reviews, I never claimed that you said they were a authoritative source. But if you are going to counter an point with garbage, you're getting called on it. Stick to posting WebMD links.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,085
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2017, 08:58:30 PM »

And we're done here.

CLICK.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: "On a Wing and a Prayer" (1944 film)
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.39 seconds with 20 queries.