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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2016, 08:56:37 PM »

If you read CAPP 52-23 there's all kinds of "wiggle room" on the subject of appropriate training intensity.

If you read CAPP 52-23 there is zero "wiggle room"

CAPP 52-13, page 11:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_023_7B9F3810999BF.pdf

"Drop and give me 20!”
While such corrective physical training has a long and
cherished history in the armed forces, CAP strictly
prohibits
such corrective physical training in our Cadet
Program
because of the differences in training
objectives and outcomes as well as age, training, and
maturity of our cadets when compared to members of
the US armed forces,"
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2016, 09:44:13 PM »

Equally as much wiggle room for unauthorized additions/mods as in the uniform regs. Hmmm. Interesting perspectives.

(Standing by for the excuses for why uniforms don't matter as much).

- Spam

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DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,351

« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2016, 09:33:29 AM »

Quote from: Panzerbjorn
I've even seen PJs come back and demand a participant remove their patch if they did not graduate to standards.  That patch isn't a participation trophy.

That's a foul if they didn't meet the standard to graduate they shouldn't have received the patch or graduated.
Consider Vanguard... Everything is for sale. (Note. This is an issue for the military, too, so I'm not placing blame. Just saying it's easy [though wrong] to buy a patch after being sent home or simply not graduating.)
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vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2016, 11:26:51 AM »

If you read CAPP 52-23 there's all kinds of "wiggle room" on the subject of appropriate training intensity.

If you read CAPP 52-23 there is zero "wiggle room"

CAPP 52-13, page 11:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_023_7B9F3810999BF.pdf

"Drop and give me 20!”
While such corrective physical training has a long and
cherished history in the armed forces, CAP strictly
prohibits
such corrective physical training in our Cadet
Program
because of the differences in training
objectives and outcomes as well as age, training, and
maturity of our cadets when compared to members of
the US armed forces,"


Is "Drop and give me 20!" a synonym for "exercise as punishment"? No, it's a single example and the only one given in the pamphlet. Context matters. That section concludes with "The key is to match the appropriate level of military intensity to the particular training to be given, the trainee’s experience and ability, and the environment in which the training is occurring."

Again, the CPP itself states that inappropriately high levels of training intensity such as "exercise as punishment" do not necessarily meet the regulation's definition of hazing or abuse.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2016, 11:37:32 AM »

Is "Drop and give me 20!" a synonym for "exercise as punishment"?

Yes, it obviously is, clearly says so.

Again, the CPP itself states that inappropriately high levels of training intensity such as "exercise as punishment" do not necessarily meet the regulation's definition of hazing or abuse.

Incorrect

CAPR 52-10 Page 8
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_010_2014_10_CAABD5624E9C2.pdf

(1) An inappropriately high level of training intensity does not meet this regulation’s definition
of abuse or hazing unless it causes serious physical harm or serious emotional harm. Inappropriate yelling,
using exercise as punishment, and creating an overly-stressful environment and other conduct listed
in CAPP 52-23 are examples of inappropriately high training intensities that will be treated as boundary
concerns.


What it says is that "appropriate" intensity is not necessarily hazing.  It then goes on to define "exercise as punishment" as
"inappropriate".
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 11:43:31 AM by Eclipse » Logged

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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2016, 11:48:36 AM »

Is "Drop and give me 20!" a synonym for "exercise as punishment"?

Yes, it obviously is, clearly says so.

Cite please. I only find that one specific example.

Again, the CPP itself states that inappropriately high levels of training intensity such as "exercise as punishment" do not necessarily meet the regulation's definition of hazing or abuse.

Cites please.

Already did. Here it is again:

CAPR  52-10 section 2-5.b

"(1) An inappropriately high level of training intensity does not meet this regulation’s definition of abuse or hazing unless it causes serious physical harm or serious emotional harm. Inappropriate yelling, using exercise as punishment, and creating an overly-stressful environment and other conduct listed in CAPP 52-23 are examples of inappropriately high training intensities that will be treated as boundary concerns."
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vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2016, 11:50:29 AM »

Is "Drop and give me 20!" a synonym for "exercise as punishment"?

Yes, it obviously is, clearly says so.

Again, the CPP itself states that inappropriately high levels of training intensity such as "exercise as punishment" do not necessarily meet the regulation's definition of hazing or abuse.

Incorrect

CAPR 52-10 Page 8
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_010_2014_10_CAABD5624E9C2.pdf

(1) An inappropriately high level of training intensity does not meet this regulation’s definition
of abuse or hazing unless it causes serious physical harm or serious emotional harm. Inappropriate yelling,
using exercise as punishment, and creating an overly-stressful environment and other conduct listed
in CAPP 52-23 are examples of inappropriately high training intensities that will be treated as boundary
concerns.


What it says is that "appropriate" intensity is not necessarily hazing.  It then goes on to define "exercise as punishment" as
"inappropriate".

Are you reading what you're copying and pasting?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2016, 12:02:54 PM »

Yes, which part is unclear?  Or are you seriously suggesting that behaviors which create "boundary concerns"
are "appropriate"?

The whole point of "boundary concerns" is you're not supposed to engage in them.

"f. Boundary Concern. A boundary concern occurs when a member’s action might not be considered
a best practice
(see chapter 2) without meeting the definition of abuse or hazing. CAPP 52-23
contains examples of these best practices and boundary concerns."


Also, I never said "PT as punishment" was "hazing", nor does behavior have to be "hazing" to be prohibited.
*** Edit: per RST training, it is see below...

52-10 uses "boundary concern" specifically to call "knock it off" on behaviors that can quickly become violations, while still
allowing for members to make mistakes.  That doesn't make a given BC behavior or practice "authorized" it just means
you won't be kicked out the first time you get caught.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:53:55 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,351

« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2016, 12:02:58 PM »


What it says is that "appropriate" intensity is not necessarily hazing.  It then goes on to define "exercise as punishment" as
"inappropriate".

Right. But these "inappropriate" intensity levels are NOT hazing outright, they are boundary concerns.

Disclosure: I don't plan to test this out, I'm just debating the regulation.

Edit: Eclipse posted whilst I typed.

1st Lt Raduenz
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:15:29 PM by DakRadz » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2016, 12:15:47 PM »

Also...

CAPR 52-16. Page 4
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf

"(2) Methods. The fitness program encourages units to provide drills, games and other activities
that promote physical fitness. Effective 1 September 2014, commanders will schedule time for cadet fitness
training; simply administering the fitness tests described below is not sufficient (see CAPP 52-18, Cadet
Physical Fitness Program, for suggested activities). Physical exercise in the Cadet Program will be used
only to improve cadets’ physical fitness
while increasing confidence, teamwork and determination. Fitness
training will not be used as a form of punishment or as a vehicle to teach remedial discipline".


CAPP 52-18, 5
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_018_501C183A14D19.pdf
"Prohibitions. Physical exercise in the Cadet Program will be used only to further the goal of improving physical fitness
while increasing confidence, teamwork, and determination. Commanders, activity directors, and ranking cadets will
not
use physical training as a form of punishment or remedial discipline."
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:21:13 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2016, 12:47:59 PM »

CAPP 52-12 Page 12:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052012_v1_B10D6D4BBA39E.pdf

"Why not push-ups?
Most leaders of cadets understand completely that under CAP’s interpretation of the DoD definition of
hazing, incentive physical training
(sometimes referred to as “push-ups for punishment”) is strictly
prohibited
for the purpose of the CAP Cadet Program."


"On the other end of the spectrum, some leaders of cadets are under the impression that we can never
do push-ups in the Cadet Program. This is a common misconception. Push-ups can be used as a tool
both for physical fitness training (PT), and to build teamwork. However, beware of cause and effect.
Scheduling a random PT session as a result of a failed barracks inspection still violates the CPP, no
matter how tight knit the team becomes in the process."


Also, within the case studies on pages 13, 14, & 17:
"Anticipated Responses: Assigning physical exercise as punishment meets the definition of hazing"
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 12:51:19 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2016, 01:08:39 PM »

Yes, which part is unclear?  Or are you seriously suggesting that behaviors which create "boundary concerns"
are "appropriate"?

Not at all. You said "What it says is that 'appropriate' intensity is not necessarily hazing" which is just incorrect. I twice quoted the section that says inappropriate behaviors may not be considered hazing.

Quote from: CAPR 52-10
f. Boundary Concern. A boundary concern occurs when a member’s action might not be considered a best practice (see chapter 2) without meeting the definition of abuse or hazing. CAPP 52-23 contains examples of these best practices and boundary concerns.

"Might not be considered a best practice"? No "wiggle room" there! Because there are no not-so-best-practices in Civil Air Patrol right?

Also, I never said "PT as punishment" was "hazing", nor does behavior have to be "hazing" to be prohibited.

Fair enough. As a matter of principle I don't disagree with your stance on this. I was just responding to your rather absolute post saying there's no "wiggle room" in the regs and my take is that this whole new "boundary concern" thing introduces a gray area that maybe didn't exist before. The fact that CAPR 52-10 replaces the term "boundary violation" with "boundary concern" bears that out. I don't know anything about pjoc but maybe it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make reference to "appropriate training level intensities" that are tougher than CPFT but do not rise to the level of "PT as punishment".
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vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2016, 01:09:38 PM »

Disclosure: I don't plan to test this out, I'm just debating the regulation.

Me too, obviously.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,896

« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2016, 01:15:28 PM »

As indicated in the quotes above, 52-10 isn't the only defining reg in this case, that's where
a lot of people get stuck.

52-16 specifically prohibits PT as punishment outright as a concept, hazing or no, and
supporting documents such as the RST pamphlet (nonsense about "Ps" vs. "Rs" notwithstanding")
defines "PT as punishment" as hazing, so prohibited from that vector as well.

There's no way anyone who had the required training for an NCSA or encampment could stand up in a
hearing room and say "That's a gray area" with a straight face, other then on the general principle that
CAP regs are a mess, which they are.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 224

« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2016, 02:56:41 PM »

CAPP 52-12 Page 12:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052012_v1_B10D6D4BBA39E.pdf

"Why not push-ups?
Most leaders of cadets understand completely that under CAP’s interpretation of the DoD definition of
hazing, incentive physical training
(sometimes referred to as “push-ups for punishment”) is strictly
prohibited
for the purpose of the CAP Cadet Program."


"On the other end of the spectrum, some leaders of cadets are under the impression that we can never
do push-ups in the Cadet Program. This is a common misconception. Push-ups can be used as a tool
both for physical fitness training (PT), and to build teamwork. However, beware of cause and effect.
Scheduling a random PT session as a result of a failed barracks inspection still violates the CPP, no
matter how tight knit the team becomes in the process."


Also, within the case studies on pages 13, 14, & 17:
"Anticipated Responses: Assigning physical exercise as punishment meets the definition of hazing"

As I've demonstrated, those highlighted statements are not consistent with the CPP itself. The CPP should be modified to reflect the above and "PT as punishment" should not be mentioned in the context of "boundary concerns".
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,110

« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2016, 06:59:22 PM »

Sorry to be late to the party on this one. 

From our perspective, the policy seems clear:  We do not permit the use of push-ups (or other forms of exercise / calisthenics) for disciplinary purposes in our cadet program.

"Drop and give me 20," however, almost never amounts to hazing, but will at least be a boundary concern and an opportunity for counseling and re-training on appropriate techniques.

I agree that the policy could be made plainer and easier to find, and we will do that during the current CP publication re-engineering effort.  The policy is unlikely to change, but we can all agree it should be easy to understand, and easy to find in our publications.

Ned Lee
COL, CAP
National Cadet Programs Manager
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2016, 08:10:00 PM »

Thanks NED
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: Pjoc pararescue orientation
 


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