Hurricane Matthew Preparation and Response Oct 2016

[seacamper]

It is not written... But it does not have to be.

The squadron CC is responsible of his squadron's response during an emergency, and he probably received a direct order of knowing where his resources are during this watch from his Group or Wing CC.

Bottom line... Your CC decided it was a good idea, this is a bad time to start criticizing what your state response is. Do not add to the tension. Go with the flow, and critici suggest afterwards.

Luis, buddy, I am going to have to call you out on this one. In what universe is asking where the guidance for a policy is construed as criticizing my state's policy? Are you one of those guys in CAP that feels the need to belittle people asking reasonable questions? Hey, thanks for all the advice on how to react in a crisis. I guess I did not get that on my 40 combat sorties or the other 100+ combat support sorties I flew in various conflicts in the last 25 years. I ask the question because I am being loaded up with new jobs, and as the new Stan Eval Officer, I wanted to explain this policy to the parents of some cadets that were asking me.
I am pretty familiar with CAPR 60-3 and it does not mention this. The Wing does not have a Supplement to CAPR 60-3 for good reasons. It is tightly controlled.
From CAPR 60-3:
1-2. Supplements and Waivers. Supplements to this regulation cannot be issued below the
wing level (except Congressional Squadron) and require region commander, NHQ CAP/DO, and
CAP-USAF/XO approval. Requests for waivers or supplements must be submitted via chain of
command to the CAP and CAP-USAF region commanders and then to NHQ CAP/DO for further
consideration.

I also went to the Wing's Forms, Publications and Authorizations page which had nothing listed under regulation supplements, so I went on to look for Wing pamphlets. Nothing was listed under our CAPR 0-2, dated 10 Nov 2013. It turns out our CAPR 0-2 is outdated because the Wing produced a Wing Pamphlet, 60-004 which is the Wing's Hurricane  plan in July of 2016. It explains the guidelines for accountability. No, Luis,
"It is not written... But it does not have to be" is actually incorrect.  If it is a policy it has to be codified in some way, or it is just a "Word Of Mouth" (WOM).  That means it is totally unsupported. Now Luis, I know I do not need to explain this to you, with your expertise in all areas,  but the CAP mimics the Air Force's publication policies.  A Manual or Regulation are binding. They use the words "Shall" and "Will" that are mandatory. A Pamphlet indicates guidelines, techniques, or recommendations. So I am now able to explain to the parents that per the Wing Pamphlet, we are recommending that their kids keep in contact using the phone tree, and I can show them or send them a copy of the pamphlet. I was also able to clear up many of the misconceptions about this policy. 
So Luis, next time if you don't really know, you should just say so. Also, you and others seem to have a hostile ownership of CAP. You attack very reasonable questions and put the asker on the defense. You exude disdain and a condescending tone which makes it harder to recruit ES professionals into my squadron, because they think we are a joke. They have run into people in CAP that have a qualification or two, that berate them with attacks like yours above, accuse them of stupid things, and you wonder why they won't stay. It is because they do not want to work with amateurs. 
Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it. Is that like Word of Mouth (WOM) which is also not a thing?

[SarDragon]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

[seacamper]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

Oh, OK, a legitimate, authorized, codified uniform change covered by CAPM 39-1.  Perfect. It is an alteration of something covered in a Regulation or Manual. I 100% get that. Neither a VOCO or a WOM supports this:
"It is not written... But it does not have to be."
Now, I am not being sarcastic at all here because I could not find that through a quick search and I am unfamiliar with VOCO, being an AF puke, is VOCO in any of our CAP literature as a form of communication? Please do not think I am slamming you, I am really asking the way this forum should work. I am seeking knowledge.

[Spaceman3750]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

Oh, OK, a legitimate, authorized, codified uniform change covered by CAPM 39-1.  Perfect. It is an alteration of something covered in a Regulation or Manual. I 100% get that. Neither a VOCO or a WOM supports this:
"It is not written... But it does not have to be."
Now, I am not being sarcastic at all here because I could not find that through a quick search and I am unfamiliar with VOCO, being an AF puke, is VOCO in any of our CAP literature as a form of communication? Please do not think I am slamming you, I am really asking the way this forum should work. I am seeking knowledge.

The answer you are looking for here is no, there is no regulation requiring this.

However, Florida Wing has apparently developed a hurricane plan around keeping accountability for members such that the wing can respond rapidly to any requests for assistance following the storm's departure. You are currently at HURCON 1, which is described here: http://www.flwg.us/hurcon/hurcon-1.aspx. This condition of the plan requires commanders to provide daily situation reports to group HQ and keep accountability for all personnel.

So what your commander is trying to do is follow the directions of higher HQ to maintain a state of readiness. It sounds like maybe your wing has been to this party a couple of times before. If you really don't want to respond to the call-down, I'm sure you can nicely ask your commander to exclude you - you are, after all, a volunteer. Just don't be surprised when you don't get to participate in any of the response activities because nobody told you, because you didn't want to participate in the response plan.

EDIT: You are in SC, not FL. I made an assumption. Disregard. If any FLWG people are complaining, see my expertly crafted message above .

[RazorbackPride]

+1
Just do what the commander says, eh?

[Spaceman3750]

From Facebook, it looks like SC is doing some good work monitoring evacuation routes as the storm approaches, hand-in-hand with SC ANG and state agencies.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Seacamper,

Sorry if you were looking for guidance. However, in an emergency like this, the best guidance is to do as your commander asked. Guidance starts like this: "How can I do a call-in, as my commander asked?" Questioning starts like this: "Where is it written that commanders can...?"

Your message sounded more questioning than asking for guidance.

[seacamper]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

Oh, OK, a legitimate, authorized, codified uniform change covered by CAPM 39-1.  Perfect. It is an alteration of something covered in a Regulation or Manual. I 100% get that. Neither a VOCO or a WOM supports this:
"It is not written... But it does not have to be."
Now, I am not being sarcastic at all here because I could not find that through a quick search and I am unfamiliar with VOCO, being an AF puke, is VOCO in any of our CAP literature as a form of communication? Please do not think I am slamming you, I am really asking the way this forum should work. I am seeking knowledge.

The answer you are looking for here is no, there is no regulation requiring this.

However, Florida Wing has apparently developed a hurricane plan around keeping accountability for members such that the wing can respond rapidly to any requests for assistance following the storm's departure. You are currently at HURCON 1, which is described here: http://www.flwg.us/hurcon/hurcon-1.aspx. This condition of the plan requires commanders to provide daily situation reports to group HQ and keep accountability for all personnel.

So what your commander is trying to do is follow the directions of higher HQ to maintain a state of readiness. It sounds like maybe your wing has been to this party a couple of times before. If you really don't want to respond to the call-down, I'm sure you can nicely ask your commander to exclude you - you are, after all, a volunteer. Just don't be surprised when you don't get to participate in any of the response activities because nobody told you, because you didn't want to participate in the response plan.

EDIT: You are in SC, not FL. I made an assumption. Disregard. If any FLWG people are complaining, see my expertly crafted message above .

Pretty cool. Working with the F 16 guard guys from McEntire.
Anyhoo, I transferred from SC to FL and could not find the FLWG Hurricane Plan because it was erroneously not listed in the Wing's 0-2 reg, so I did not know what to tell the parents about the call downs. Some of the parents WERE complaining, and that was why I came here initially and had to endure the derision of one of my fellow CAP officers for trying to find the answer that you provided.. I think you can see from the post above that I found the answer, and I am fine with the procedure, I just wanted to actually find the document so I understood it and could explain it.
I am not sure why you thought I did not want to be included in the program or the call down, I was simply trying to find the documentation to explain it. Somehow, Luis decided I wanted to buck the system and wanted to criticize the state's emergency plan, which was not at all in any of my posts. Go back and reread it, in fact, I wrote:
"So I am now able to explain to the parents that per the Wing Pamphlet, we are recommending that their kids keep in contact using the phone tree, and I can show them or send them a copy of the pamphlet. I was also able to clear up many of the misconceptions about this policy."
THAT is what I was looking for.

[Eclipse]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

[seacamper]

Seacamper,

Sorry if you were looking for guidance. However, in an emergency like this, the best guidance is to do as your commander asked. Guidance starts like this: "How can I do a call-in, as my commander asked?" Questioning starts like this: "Where is it written that commanders can...?"

Your message sounded more questioning than asking for guidance.

Louis, it seems we are in different universes. I do not need to come up to some strange level of your definition of guidance verses questioning. Your above post is not helping your case. I guess I am trying to say I think you are a nut. Here is what I wrote:

Hey All,
I am trying to find a regulation or source that requires each squadron member to participate in a daily "call down" during a hurricane. Our state is under a hurricane watch, and the squadron is requiring we check in every day, or else the squadron commander will have to come to our house and check on us. Where is that written? I guess its not a bad idea, but I can't find it.

I think that stands on it's own. I was fine with the concept, I just couldn't find it. It was not in a national reg, and it was not listed in any of the Wing's regs,
http://flwg.us/resources-2/forms-publications.aspx
http://epublishing.sercap.us/publications/supplements/florida-2.aspx
Or in the PDF document entitled "CAPR 0-2, S-1, Numerical Index of Florida Wing Supplements and Pamphlets"
It was actually listed here:
http://www.flwg.us/hurcon/hurcon-1.aspx
As you can see, it is actually a FLWG Pamphlet, but it was not listed in CAPR 0-2, S-1, Numerical Index of Florida Wing Supplements and Pamphlets, so it did not stand out. It was listed as a separate document, and I did not find it right off the bat, which is why I came here.I thought I would come to a group of professionals who would lead me to the then elusive regulation, manual or pamphlet. I did not need your snarky post assuming the worst about my intentions. Also, I am not sure why you feel that you need to push the notion that when a squadron commander says something, everyone needs to shout "How High Sir?". I have never had an actual squadron commander act like that, and when I was a squadron commander if I had an idiot like that, I would have gotten rid of him. I want officers that ask about where things are written, because then we are all making sure we are in compliance of our complex regulation system. So Louis, lets try and get off on a better foot next time, and assume the best about people trying to find out about CAP, and lets not hold them to starting threads starting with "How can I do a call-in, as my commander asked?".  I frankly think that is just.......weird.
I think this forum can be a great place to exchange ideas among professionals. Why does it need to be so painful?

[Spaceman3750]

I think this forum can be a great place to exchange ideas among professionals. Why does it need to be so painful?

You must be new. Welcome to CAPTalk. :angel:

[seacamper]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?
On your second snide comment, It is not the position of the US Air Force or the CAP I know, that when someone wants to know where something is written, they are tinged with "You can't make me".  It is more understandable that those that do NOT know where something is written get defensive. What am I missing here. We have complex rules and a complex mission here. We are all professionals. We were supposed to study the regs before we got qualified, and I just do not think it is a crime when something strange can not be explained to simply open up the regs and look for it. You are flying a mission, and something complex comes up. I hope you have a copy of CAPR 60-1with you. Look it up. If any crewmmeber at anytime questioned if what I was doing was per the reg, I would be glad he/she was asking. I certainly would not think they were exhibiting a "You can't make me" attitude. In fact, if I thought there was a crewmember that had a "You can't make me" attitude, I would simply not take off to begin with for safety of flight reasons.   What is wrong with this site?

[seacamper]

I think this forum can be a great place to exchange ideas among professionals. Why does it need to be so painful?

You must be new. Welcome to CAPTalk. :angel:

I guess I need to figure it out. So what, a couple internet bullies run this site and beat everyone into submission? Great. What a shame. It could be a great program.

[seacamper]

It does look like lower Florida is surviving. Good luck to N Fla, Ga and the Carolinas.

[Eclipse]

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The proper response is "That's outside my lane, please address it through the chain - in this case that would be the CC, CDC, or perhaps the ESO."

One of the biggest problems CAP has is everyone wants to "help" and gets themselves in the middle of things that don't hit their OPR.

If I issue a proper directive as a CC, especially one being pushed down the chain from higher HQ, I certainly don't expect, nor would I tolerate subordinate staff questioning them, trying to justify them, or "looking into things", I expect them to be disseminated as directed and followed, or addressed through proper channels.

[RogueLeader]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The reason that they shouldn't be asking you, is because it is not in your lane to make/enforce those calls.  There are polite ways of directing them into the proper lane.  I totally understand why they are coming to you, as you are a face that is familiar (in more ways than one in some cases) so it is natural.  It is very reasonable to question what is not "normal" procedures and/or why they are put in place.

As to your second concern, unfortunately, you fell into the cultural pitfalls that is CapTalk.  There is history of many members- mostly cadets- that get news that they don't want, seem arbitrary, etc and come here with trying to find a way around the Commanders prerogative.  See the below for an example:

Are Boonie hats allowed while wearing CAP corporate uniform?  If Squadron Commander says no, how do I convince him otherwise?

This has happened many, many times.  Those that have been here quite a while have dealt with it for so long, can tend to glaze over some details, due to the presentation.  I myself was under the (incorrect) assumption that you were trying to get around it.  I know better now, and I apologize for it.  It takes a while for post history to give others an understanding of who you are, and how to interpret your posts, because otherwise there is no situational context for letters on a screen, unfortunately.

I hope this helps.

[seacamper]

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The proper response is "That's outside my lane, please address it through the chain - in this case that would be the CC, CDC, or perhaps the ESO."

One of he biggest problems CAP has is everyone wants to "help" and gets themselves in the middle of things that don't hit the OPR.

If I issue a proper directive as a CC, especially one being pushed down the chain from higher HQ, I certainly don't expect, nor would I tolerate subordinate staff questioning them, trying to justify them, or "looking into things", I expect them to be disseminated as directed and followed,
or addressed through proper channels.

Well I am sure you are a joy to work for. So your answer is "Even though I know the answer, I can not give it to you because I need to follow a non existent chain of command for your question".  There is no chain of command for that question. That is a general question that could be answered by anyone who actually knew the answer and had the document in their hand. That is why I was seeking the document. I am the new Deputy Commander as well as the PAO, Recruitment, Historian and Stan Eval. Many of these parents came to me for recruitment, and I will be [darn]ed if I am going to give them the run around over a piece of paper that should be in their hands anyway. Am I on the wrong website? The CAP in CAP Talk does mean Civil Air Patrol right? Not Convoluted Arrogant Popinjay Talk?
In this case a directive was properly made, and it was actually disseminated by Word Of Mouth so the actual document was not in hand. As the CDS there was a question of what would happen if someone did not answer the call down. I wanted the exact verbiage, so I came here to ask if anyone heard of it. No one questioned the CC's authority, in fact my job as the CDS is to be a  problem solver, and to handle things at my own level, which I did. You wouldn't "tolerate" subordinate staff questioning them, trying to justify them, or "looking into things", I expect them to be disseminated as directed and followed, or addressed through proper channels.? LOL
Well, if you want them disseminated as directed, wouldn't you want them understood so other people would understand them? I mean you can stamp your foot at them all you want, but if there needs to be a clear understanding, how about printing the Pamphlet and handing it to them? When they try and understand it, are they "questioning" the directive? Would you tolerate that? What is wrong with you guys?

[seacamper]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The reason that they shouldn't be asking you, is because it is not in your lane to make/enforce those calls.  There are polite ways of directing them into the proper lane.  I totally understand why they are coming to you, as you are a face that is familiar (in more ways than one in some cases) so it is natural.  It is very reasonable to question what is not "normal" procedures and/or why they are put in place.

As to your second concern, unfortunately, you fell into the cultural pitfalls that is CapTalk.  There is history of many members- mostly cadets- that get news that they don't want, seem arbitrary, etc and come here with trying to find a way around the Commanders prerogative.  See the below for an example:

Are Boonie hats allowed while wearing CAP corporate uniform?  If Squadron Commander says no, how do I convince him otherwise?

This has happened many, many times.  Those that have been here quite a while have dealt with it for so long, can tend to glaze over some details, due to the presentation.  I myself was under the (incorrect) assumption that you were trying to get around it.  I know better now, and I apologize for it.  It takes a while for post history to give others an understanding of who you are, and how to interpret your posts, because otherwise there is no situational context for letters on a screen, unfortunately.

I hope this helps.

Ah! Now that makes sense! Thank you.

[spaatzmom]

Wow.  First seacamper, welcome to the forum and to your stated service that was revealed to us only after you felt put upon bu someone who was trying to help answer your question and has been a member for quite some time.  After reading the entire thread several times and mulling over its content, I must ask, Why are you being the only openly hostile person on it?  Context of a post is really difficult to judge especially with a new poster.  We do the best given what is initially written.  Yes all to often, a new member usually a gung ho full metal jacket type teen will misinterpret the response and blow something meant to be helpful into a personal attack when it isn't.  Not too often do we have that with adults but when we do, it generally comes from those who have been active duty and are experiencing some difficulty adjusting to the civilian aspect of CAP .... we are not the military.

I will chalk this up to a bit of all of the above and hope you have a smoother experience in the future.

[THRAWN]

OP, you seem to misunderstand the role of the commander. Eclipse and I have had our professional deltas but I think wr can agree on this: if you were in my group and acted like this, you would not be in my group for long. You need to take some time and understand the authority and responsibility of a commander. Once you understand and internalize those definitions, then you can question the authority of those appointed over you to give legal and enforcable orders.