Oaths of Office

[Eagle400]

Well, there we have it.  National Headquarters again has a solution in search of a problem.

The wannabe-military types are trying hard to make CAP something it's not.  The Air Force regs clearly state what CAP is and how it shall relate to the Air Force.  I hate to say it, but CAP is not the military.    
I would think that AFI 10-2701, para 1.3 would prohibit the institution of an Oath similar to the one the Armed Forces use.

Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members.

 
I would think that swearing oaths like the kind the military uses would fall under the category of Air Force protocol requirements. 

[Eclipse]

What a people are trying to do here is bring some sort of "force of law" to members who won't play the game right, or won't play it "right enough".

The fix for this is just working the program we have, and holding people to standards they agreed to.

A couple of uncomfortable conversations and we have much fewer problems.

[Hawk200]

I wonder how the State Guards handle their issues. They don't get paid either, so what's to hold them to any oath? Just an idle thought....

Anyone here State Guard that can shed light on this?

[SeattleSarge]

What a people are trying to do here is bring some sort of "force of law" to members who won't play the game right, or won't play it "right enough".

I think this point is exactly right.  The problem, of course, is there is no "force of law" that can be used.

What I'm baffled about is, how does the National Command Staff not know the obvious conflict with these oaths and the AFI covering CAP organization and function?  Does anyone really think that CAP officers are comissioned and CAP members enlist into the organization?

-Baffled in Seattle

[wingnut]

OK now an OATH to the CORPORATION no way!!! what kind of crap is that, either we are the Auxilary of the USAF or we are a Corporation what a bunch of H.S. crap is this.

Oh Ok where do I sign :angel:

[ZigZag911]

Scouts (boy and girl) take an oath, as do CAP cadets.

Would a CAP senior/officer oath be equivalent to that taken by military members?  Of course not!

Would it give CAP commanders orders 'force of law'? No way!

Is it something we can't live without? Hardly.

Does anyone want to swear allegiance to "The Corporation"? I think not!

However, this could be a morale boosting means for individuals to make a public, spoken commitment to one another and to themselves....and that might well be something worth at least considering.

[SeattleSarge]

However, this could be a morale boosting means for individuals to make a public, spoken commitment to one another and to themselves....and that might well be something worth at least considering.

If a morale boost is needed, I would suggest the new member flip over the CAPF 12 and take the oath printed there.

-Seattle Sarge

[FARRIER]

...that we need fear atheistic or non-judeo-Christian backlash.

Capt. Lord...its called respect. Pending seeing the policy letter, If we are supposed to be start taking an oath upon promotion or taking office, I hope there is a provision that "so help me God" is optional. I'll respect your right to say it when taking an oath, and if someone who is not of a Christian faith or an atheist, I'll respect their right not to.

[Pumbaa]

Do Senior Members wear a TPU or BDU when they take the oath?

Or will grey distinctives do?

And if I wear my BDU's is my oath still good if I do not wear the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tape?  What about the new command patch?

Boy so many questions!

[Major Lord]

...that we need fear atheistic or non-judeo-Christian backlash.

Capt. Lord...its called respect. Pending seeing the policy letter, If we are supposed to be start taking an oath upon promotion or taking office, I hope there is a provision that "so help me God" is optional. I'll respect your right to say it when taking an oath, and if someone who is not of a Christian faith or an atheist, I'll respect their right not to.

Ahh, I see we have a little reading comprehension problem! First, my respect for religion and my respect for the Constitution of the United States,
prohibit allowing myself or any other American to be forced to take an involuntary oath. Second, my post clearly states that it does not make sense to swear an oath by affirmation, and then swear to god. That's much like saying "I swear to God I am an atheist". Every oath in which one affirms rathers than swears is done so without the phrase "so help me God".

The Constitution of the United States , to which I have sworn an actual oath, tells me that Congress Shall make no law prohibiting the exercise of religion. This means I do not have to fear that druids, atheists or democrats can compel me to take an oath involuntarily.

Right now this Oath is little more than a rumor, but it does have the stench of of fiefdom building. How many people have been thrown out of CAP lately for real or imagined violations of the regulations? At the command level, quite a few.

Farrier, I apologize if you did not understand my post. I assumed that anyone in uniform would have a passing knowledge or familiarity with the rule of law, and the U.S. Constitution.

Our Country was however, unapologetically formed on Judeo-Christian values. This is what makes America the most free, most generous, most moral country ever to exist in the history of the world . Christian thought is the product of western philosophy, and includes great thinkers, like Marcus Aurelius, who were not Christians or Jews. But lets face it, America's strength does not come from Islam, Hinduisim, Druidism or Tennessee Snake worship. Frankly, these people are mere beneficiaries of the greatest Country to ever grace the planet.

Capt. Lord

Tags - MIKE

[KFreeman]

Hawk200,

Re: State Guard comparison.  True that the State Guard and State Defense Forces are unpaid volunteers, but the similarity to CAP ends there. The SG and SDFs are state military forces and not dues paying members of a corporation.

This is not a dispairaging remark as I belong to both and hold each in great esteem.

The "oath" is not an issue to me.

Regards,
Ken

[MidwaySix]

It seems like one of the un-resolved issues in this thread is the the problem that some people have with the, "So help me God." in the oath.

Folks who take issue with the G-word may opt out of that last part, as "So help me God." is an OPTIONAL part of the officer oath. I came across this when I was researching my blog post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Oath_of_Allegience

Sorry to cite wikipedia, I would have rather cited the AFI, but I've seen this corroborated online other places.

So those of you who prefer not to use the G-word should simply ask the person administering the oath to strike the last line, and everyone can move on.

I hope this reduces heartburn for the folks affected.

The blog post can be found here:

http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2007/05/ive_written_abo.html

s/v,

- Midway Six

[Hawk200]

Hawk200,

Re: State Guard comparison.  True that the State Guard and State Defense Forces are unpaid volunteers, but the similarity to CAP ends there. The SG and SDFs are state military forces and not dues paying members of a corporation.

This is not a dispairaging remark as I belong to both and hold each in great esteem.

The "oath" is not an issue to me.

Regards,
Ken

Still doesn't answer my question. How does the State Guard assure compliance with the orders issued by its command? I drew the similarities between the fact that neither are paid for service and both are volunteers.

If a member of a State Guard decides they don't want to play anymore, what happens? Do they have an oath that holds the individual accountable if they make such a decision?

[mikeylikey]

^^  I think most State Guards are paid when called into State Active Duty, at the same rate as a NG person of the same pay grade would be.  CAP members are not.  So....SDF's/SG's would no longer be a volunteer when getting paid right?  What do CAP members get?  Reimbursement for travel and maybe lodging, if approved by like 4 command levels, and then waiting 5 weeks for a check to get cut.

[KFreeman]

Hawk200,

Perhaps this is a better answer:

In my SDF outfit: Code of Alabama, Title 31, Military Affairs and Civil Defense Military Code: 31-2-50 ....failure to appear for duty....shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

It does not go into detail about the misdemeanor but I get the idea. I did not look into it any further.

Regards,
Ken
(LTC in 3rd Inf Bde ALSDF and LtCol in SER Staff CAP)

[SAR-EMT1]

To me the reference to Deity is less important then the fact that the 'oath' does not mention the Constitution, United States etc. but instead mentions the CAP specifically. I would not take this oath that National just cooked up. However, I would have no problem taking the oath in use by the Air Force. - Or one that the Air Force, and not NHQ, comes up with.

[Hawk200]

Hawk200,

Perhaps this is a better answer:

In my SDF outfit: Code of Alabama, Title 31, Military Affairs and Civil Defense Military Code: 31-2-50 ....failure to appear for duty....shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

It does not go into detail about the misdemeanor but I get the idea. I did not look into it any further.

Regards,
Ken
(LTC in 3rd Inf Bde ALSDF and LtCol in SER Staff CAP)

That's what I was looking for. I was wondering if CAP could do something similar to the State Guards, but I didn't know how the State Guard dealt with such issues. Obviously, we can't do the same thing in CAP.

At times though, I think it would be nice if we could. Would be easier to deal with malcontents that only want to play their way.

[ZigZag911]

If a morale boost is needed, I would suggest the new member flip over the CAPF 12 and take the oath printed there.
-Seattle Sarge

Sounds fine....I think we need to bring a bit of structure & formality to the Senior program....as long as we set a tone that this is largely a coffee drinking social gathering, that will be how the members behave!

[Hawk200]

....I think we need to bring a bit of structure & formality to the Senior program....as long as we set a tone that this is largely a coffee drinking social gathering, that will be how the members behave!

Hey, I get plenty of work done while drinking my coffee! 

[Eagle400]

NHQ has just mandated new oaths to be sworn by all CAP Officers upon initial membership, all promotions, and at change of command. This is effective immediately.

Can anyone find proof of this?  So far, I have not seen any memo, policy letter, etc. stating that NHQ has mandated new oaths for all CAP officers. 

Source: www.capblog.typepad.com.