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Author Topic: CAP receipient of the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award.  (Read 16171 times)
cobra6987
Recruit

Posts: 16

« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2016, 08:49:37 PM »

Since CAP just received this award, does that mean any member active during the qualification period can wear the ribbon? AF rules are the HQ and any subordinate unit.
I sent an inquiry to NHQ, but I want your thoughts.

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/949846/civil-air-patrol-honored-for-75-years-of-service.aspx
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 08:58:53 PM by cobra6987 » Logged
SSgt, USAF (Separated)
Major, CAP
Ham - N5TCL
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,001
Unit: SI

« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2016, 09:10:02 PM »

See this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21466.msg393912;topicseen#msg393912

Which his post is currently in. I moved it.  :)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 09:17:16 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,138
Unit: NER-NY-408

I Help Non-Profits | Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2016, 09:53:34 PM »

I'm going to post this once.


PHall, et al., if you can't participate in a constructive, positive conversation about this award without questioning the authority of the SECAF, then go and complain elsewhere. You won't do it here. Am I clear?


One warning. This is it.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
F. R. Sussey Composite Squadron       
Maj Daniel Sauerwein
Recruit

Posts: 44
Unit: NCR-ND-005

Civil War History
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2016, 10:23:56 PM »

One could argue that we are an Air Force internal organization to an extent, since we derive funding from them and answer to them on a number of issues.

Our government funding comes from appropriated funds allocated by Congress, given to the Air Force to manage. Except for some generous donations by the Air Force (such as CEAP), we are not an Air Force funded program.

We remain a private, non-profit corporation. It's a nice gesture, even if it's an award the Air Force wasn't supposed to give us.

I should have clarified that part, but then, isn't all defense funding allocated by Congress too?

That said, while we are a private, non-profit corporation, we do still act as the auxiliary when participating in AFAM's

I'm going to post this once.


PHall, et al., if you can't participate in a constructive, positive conversation about this award without questioning the authority of the SECAF, then go and complain elsewhere. You won't do it here. Am I clear?


One warning. This is it.

 :clap: ^^^

I was delighted to see this news today, as any good recognition that raises awareness of our organization is great and needed to help in recruiting.

I do look forward to seeing what comes of this in terms of if we will be authorized to wear the ribbon.
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DANIEL SAUERWEIN, Maj, CAP
Squadron Commander
Grand Forks Composite Squadron
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
Robert Hartigan
Forum Regular

Posts: 179

« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2016, 11:53:51 PM »

CAP gets an award. Good job.  :clap:

Some dork wants to wear a ribbon for CAP getting an award and still wonders why he is a dork.
 --No ribbon for you! One Year!

Bring back the guayabera shirt!
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<><><>#996
 GRW   #2717
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,567

« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2016, 06:46:58 AM »

AFI 36-2803, Para 4.1.4. Air Force unit awards are primarily awarded to Air Force units and organizations. Sister Service units are not normally recommended for or selected to share in an Air Force peacetime unit award, as they are eligible for their own service unit awards.

Last time I looked, Civil Air Patrol is not an Air Force Unit or Organization.
"Primarily" "not normally" see....even the instructions allows for some wiggle room.
And again.   If SECAF wants us to have one of his ribbons.....who is going to say he can't?

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,494
Unit: of issue

« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2016, 08:55:25 AM »

This whole thing is really a moot point at the moment and everybody is getting ahead of themselves.

Quote
CAPM 39-1, Chapter 11, para 11.2.1.1 US Awards. Federal awards awarded by competent authority may be worn on USAF-style uniforms in accordance with instructions contained in AFI 36-2903.
Emphasis mine.

Surely the USAF is considered "Competent Authority" for award of their own ribbons and medals.  I think that about covers the flyby there.

However, the other aspect of the concept of "competent authority" is that you have award elements, to include orders authorizing such, specifying dates and recipients (either by name, or by category, or by participation).

Sure, "back in the day" they had Generals wandering around battlefields with pockets full of bronze stars handing them out like Chiclets.  No orders, no nothing, just "here ya go, son, nice work.."   Subsequent to that, you have a far, far more regimented process, even for "impact" awards, which includes major amounts of documentation.

In today's environment, you generally don't wear something unless AND UNTIL, you have the orders saying so.

For the unprecedented step of the USAF awarding (and potentially allowing the wear of) a USAF award to CAP, anybody running around going "Can we wear it? Can we wear it?" is incredibly premature.

A) Generally, the USAF has to issue some sort of "order" that says "CAP gets this award for this reason under this authority.." (and regardless of what Phil says, yes, they do have that authority)
B) CAP will likely have to ascertain how this unprecendented USAF award will be worn on the CAP uniform, if it will be worn on the uniform at all.  Even accounting for that fact that this is a very, very big "if", we're talking about changing to CAPM 39-1 to account for the wear of that award, including where it gets worn and on what uniforms, and any issues surrounding how this might get worn on the CAP-distinctive uniforms (which is no small consideration).

So anybody who says "I wanna go buy this award right now" should be advised to sit down and relax for a little, perhaps get some oxygen, breathe deeply...








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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,102

« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2016, 09:40:26 AM »

{snip} breathe deeply...
the gathering gloom.
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Brit_in_CAP
Seasoned Member

Posts: 349
Unit: MER-VA-002

« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2016, 09:40:53 AM »

So anybody who says "I wanna go buy this award right now" should be advised to sit down and relax for a little, perhaps get some oxygen, breathe deeply...
:clap: :clap:
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Dragoon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 979

« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2016, 10:11:39 AM »

This whole thing is really a moot point at the moment and everybody is getting ahead of themselves.




For the unprecedented step of the USAF awarding (and potentially allowing the wear of) a USAF award to CAP, anybody running around going "Can we wear it? Can we wear it?" is incredibly premature.

A) Generally, the USAF has to issue some sort of "order" that says "CAP gets this award for this reason under this authority.." (and regardless of what Phil says, yes, they do have that authority)
B) CAP will likely have to ascertain how this unprecendented USAF award will be worn on the CAP uniform, if it will be worn on the uniform at all.  Even accounting for that fact that this is a very, very big "if", we're talking about changing to CAPM 39-1 to account for the wear of that award, including where it gets worn and on what uniforms, and any issues surrounding how this might get worn on the CAP-distinctive uniforms (which is no small consideration).

So anybody who says "I wanna go buy this award right now" should be advised to sit down and relax for a little, perhaps get some oxygen, breathe deeply...

 My guess is they'll work out a way for CAP members to wear it. But since CAP members are technically civilians, not miltary, the more correct answer would be to treat us the same as USAF Civilians in an organization that wins this award.  They get the lapel pin, but not the ribbon. See AFI 30-1004, which states:

4.10. Other Air Force Recognition. Civilian employees are eligible for other types of recognition
according to the governing regulation or instruction. NOTE: The Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
(AFOUA) and Air Force Organizational Excellence Award (AFOEA) are not documented in the OPF or
DCPDS. Appropriate lapel buttons are used exclusively to recognize Air Force civilians assigned or
attached to units awarded the AFOUA or AFOEA who contributed to the achievements of a cited unit.


But again, if they bent the rules to give it to us, they'll probably bend the rules to let us wear the ribbon.  There is precedence - the WWII CAP volunteers got air medals.
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shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 919
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2016, 11:41:08 AM »

?

Eclipse I think I owe YOU an apology, not the other way around.

I remember you flaming me for even suggesting that CAP could be awarded an Air Force Unit award of any type about a year ago, but I now believe it was PHall that flamed me.

Many pardons Effendi.
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Joseph J. Clune
Major, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 919
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2016, 12:03:04 PM »

I think this is a very good thing for CAP, just like the USCGAux is eligible  for all USCG unit awards, because they are considered part of the "Team Coast Guard", so now the precedent has been set that CAP is eligible for USAF unit awards, because they are considered part of "Team Air Force".

The value the CAP adds to the USAF Mission is being recognized at a "pretty high" level within the USAF hierarchy and that is outstanding.

I also think it will be interesting to see how the award is handled via eligibly status of individual CAP members and wear of the decoration itself on USAF-style vs. Corporate uniforms.

I'll point out for discussion that when the very first Coast Guard Presidential unit Citation (PUC-CG) was presented, every single member of Team Coast Guard (AC, RC, DoCG Civilian, and USCGAux) was authorized to wear the decoration.

Will the same hold true for CAP?

And I half jokingly ask will it be authorized for Patron members too?  :P
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Joseph J. Clune
Major, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,588

« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2016, 12:28:50 PM »

I think this is a very good thing for CAP, just like the USCGAux is eligible  for all USCG unit awards, because they are considered part of the "Team Coast Guard", so now the precedent has been set that CAP is eligible for USAF unit awards, because they are considered part of "Team Air Force".

These two things are not the same.

Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.

CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.

These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force".  Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.

tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 147
Unit: NY-388

« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2016, 12:51:28 PM »

I'm pretty sure that The Coast Guard Auxiliary Association, Inc. is the corporate component of the Coast Guard Auxiliary.
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M. H. Crary, Lieutenant Colonel, CAP

CAP - Lt Col (1983-Present) | USNR - QM2 (1989-1995) | VTANG - MSgt (1995-2009) | USAFR - MSgt (2009-2011) | CGAUX - BA/ADSO/FSO (2011-Present)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,588

« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2016, 01:13:30 PM »

I'm pretty sure that The Coast Guard Auxiliary Association, Inc. is the corporate component of the Coast Guard Auxiliary.

Two separate and distinct organizations.  All auxiliarists are members of the association, but not all members of the association are auxiliarists.

The board shares leadership by design, but there is a separation legally.  The associations purpose is fundraising and business management.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 147
Unit: NY-388

« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2016, 01:22:05 PM »

However, you did state that there was no corporate component.  ::)
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M. H. Crary, Lieutenant Colonel, CAP

CAP - Lt Col (1983-Present) | USNR - QM2 (1989-1995) | VTANG - MSgt (1995-2009) | USAFR - MSgt (2009-2011) | CGAUX - BA/ADSO/FSO (2011-Present)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,588

« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2016, 01:36:27 PM »

However, you did state that there was no corporate component.

And there isn't - the CGAux has no "corporate component" per se.  The Association is more akin to a complicated booster club
with input.  It's a funding mechanism, not a part of the CGAux.

Auxilarists don't have an "aux off" mode, which is the relevent part of the discussion.  They are Aux-on all the time.

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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 919
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2016, 01:48:08 PM »

These two things are not the same.

Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.

CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.

These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force".  Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.

tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs

I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.

Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period  01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.
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Joseph J. Clune
Major, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 147
Unit: NY-388

« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2016, 02:06:42 PM »

Too many people are trying to make this too complex.
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M. H. Crary, Lieutenant Colonel, CAP

CAP - Lt Col (1983-Present) | USNR - QM2 (1989-1995) | VTANG - MSgt (1995-2009) | USAFR - MSgt (2009-2011) | CGAUX - BA/ADSO/FSO (2011-Present)
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,713

« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2016, 02:12:16 PM »

These two things are not the same.

Rhetoric aside, the CGAux is never "not" the CGAux, they are always a uniformed auxiliary with no corporate component.

CAP's relationship is much more complicated, and both sides of the house use the "mostly corporate" reality of CAP when it suits them,
their mission, or their lawyers.

These realities don't just dissolve because marketing decided to change the posters, and as a matter of published fact by both CAP
and the USAF, there is only a very small percentage of the membership who are ever considered "Total Force".  Unless you are involved in
Operations, TF doesn't include you, that's been made crystal clear by both sides, yet that reality is generally left quietly in the corner of the room.

tl;dr Members are only Total Force when in "auxiliary" status, and "auxiliary status" is only conferred during AFAMS.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2687/~/total-force-faqs

I would submit to you that for the purposes of presenting USAF Unit awards, the CAP is now considered part of the Total Force and that any CAP unit, or CAP as a whole, are eligible for USAF Unit Awards at anytime. The precedent has just been set.

Unless the awarding instructions state: "Members must have been on AFAM orders during the period  01 October 2012 to 31 August 2016 to be eligible for the award" the "Aux on" vs "Aux off" doesn't matter.

So who is going to issue the order authorizing CAP members to wear this award? ???
When an Air Force unit gets this award all of the military members who were members of the unit during the award period are awarded the ribbon.
Civilian members of the unit (DAF ond DOD Civilian Employees) are not authorized the ribbon but are awarded a lapel pin version of the ribbon.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: CAP receipient of the Air Force Organizational Excellence Award.
 


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