CAP Corporate Working Uniform

[Майор Хаткевич]

If a commander can't motivate a member to wear the UOD, there are more problems than uniform wear....

Is this a frequent problem in some Squadrons? In the instances I mention, members were given enough options to where I've never seen anyone not in 'some type' of uniform that was on the approved list for the day.

We always wear G/Ws and Blues first meeting of the month for promotions, safety, etc. So assuming you were in our unit...we'd have an issue since you say you only have a polo...and don't think you need anything else.

[Eclipse]

All true, except we forget commanders really have no "command authority".  If a commander can't motivate a member to wear the UOD, there are more problems than uniform wear.... I was once told; "not having the time to do something just means a lack of interest in doing it".  As a commander, I would insure my unit membership is interested enough to wear the proper uniform when "ordered".  The expectation should be the unit's; not the commander's. 

One of the reason's, IMHO, we have these continued discussions is due to a lack of "Esprit de Corps".  These discussions are just a symptom of a larger problem.  Once you send a member home for improper uniform wear, you've lost the conversation.

I would tend to agree, and it's part of the greater conversation and problem.  Your Esprit de Corps comment is salient - there is no such thing as "one CAP", despite the rhetoric.
Units don't operate in the same way within the same Group or Wing, let alone nationally.  Every SAREx pretends they were the first one ever, every encampment is different,
every NCSA is different.

In the USAF, for the most part, every guy doing any job, has sat in the same classroom and heard the same thing, as every other guy doing the same job.
Same BMT, same tech schools, mostly same duty stations and roles. (Quick! Reply about that one time you knew a guy who didn't! That really moves things along!)

If they choose to ignore it, that's on them, but in CAP, we allow members to fly our airplanes for years, including with cadets in them, without even a Level I - and NHQ is
perfectly fine with that - "encourage pilots to join" is a direct quote from the Powers^©.  Then CAP wonder why we aren't a "team"?

Some of it is motivation, some of it is training, most of it is the setting baseline expectations of a paramilitary auxiliary on Day 0, but unless there is top-down
pressure to enforce with consequences (and not just uniform issues), the problems will persist, and I would argue the "corps" will continue to shrink
as people doing the heavy lifting disengage.

"A house divided will not stand...", somebody said that once, I think it was a Gorn or Surak or somebody.

Anyone whose ever built a house knows that no matter how fancy the top is, if the foundation is compromised, it will eventually fail.
Generally slowly, over a period of years, as mold and decay grow inside the compromised structure...hm...

Why NHQ continues to look the other way on baseline "foundational" issues is beyond me - any organization of mentionable scale looking to
grow and stay viable in the face of the kinds of challenges CAP has (and has coming) needs to get its house in order from the ground up.

Can everything be fixed?  Maybe, maybe not, but when the fruit hangs so low, and glows so brightly as these issues, the cost to fix is zero,
is mandated by the regs being ignored, and too high a risk to leave on the ground (where inevitably someone will trip on them).

[etodd]

If a commander can't motivate a member to wear the UOD, there are more problems than uniform wear....

Is this a frequent problem in some Squadrons? In the instances I mention, members were given enough options to where I've never seen anyone not in 'some type' of uniform that was on the approved list for the day.

We always wear G/Ws and Blues first meeting of the month for promotions, safety, etc. So assuming you were in our unit...we'd have an issue since you say you only have a polo...and don't think you need anything else.

No. If required for a meeting I needed to attend, I would.   Its just never been required of me yet. Of course I've only been in for less than a year. But I've flown in SAREX's, O-Ride days, and more ... gone to all types of meetings with Seniors and Cadets as well. I'm very involved. The uniform issue just never gets talked about. It was only after finding CAPTalk that I realized uniforms were a big deal in other areas of the country.

[FW]

Some of it is motivation, some of it is training, most of it is the setting baseline expectations of a paramilitary auxiliary on Day 0, but unless there is top-down
pressure to enforce with consequences (and not just uniform issues), the problems will persist, and I would argue the "corps" will continue to shrink
as people doing the heavy lifting disengage.

"A house divided will not stand...", somebody said that once, I think it was a Gorn or Surak or somebody.

Anyone whose ever built a house knows that no matter how fancy the top is, if the foundation is compromised, it will eventually fail.
Generally slowly, over a period of years, as mold and decay grow inside the compromised structure...hm...

Why NHQ continues to look the other way on baseline "foundational" issues is beyond me - any organization of mentionable scale looking to
grow and stay viable in the face of the kinds of challenges CAP has (and has coming) needs to get its house in order from the ground up.

Can everything be fixed?  Maybe, maybe not, but when the fruit hangs so low, and glows so brightly as these issues, the cost to fix is zero,
is mandated by the regs being ignored, and too high a risk to leave on the ground (where inevitably someone will trip on them).

Most of our "problems" in CAP are very fixable, and most easily addressed by sticking to our "Core Values".  "Excellence in all we do" shouldn't be just a phrase we like to parrot when talking to cadets or customers....
That said, NHQ is not the problem.  I don't see anyone participating at a Command Council or CSAG meeting in anything other than the "UOD".  Wing, Region, and National command staff are motivated, and they do the best they can within their span of control.  They, for the most part, do set the example, and do it well, however maybe the "word" isn't getting thru down to the squadron level.  Yes, all members should pass level 1 before full participation is allowed. Yes, all members should fully understand what is required for continued participation in our varied missions. Yes, all of our membership should fully understand that we sometime need to wear a uniform other than the CWU...

[THRAWN]

If the UoD is 'X',  and you show up wearing something else, and I'm the Project Officer, I will send you home. It's not a comfort issue, it's not a financial issue, it's an integrity issue. You took that oath when you signed up, and this is one of those situations it applies to. In the end, you will be the one missing out, not me, or the event.

If my deputy commander sent a member  home from a weekly meeting for a uniform issue, he wouldn't be my deputy commander any longer.

You're right. He should be the commander.

Tonight, I'm attending a meeting that will be attended by three cadets that had their home burn to the ground this week.  I'll be happy to see them in any attire.  There are any number of good excuses that I'd accept. 

I didn't even need a hypothetical example to make you look like a pedant.

Charming. Yep, I'm stuck on details. Remember that when your SUI comes up. There are rules. They are written down, and all that you need to do is follow them if you want to be a member of this organization. Spend more time looking at them, and less time looking for excuses on how to avoid them and CAP will be a stronger organization.

[Alaric]

If a commander can't motivate a member to wear the UOD, there are more problems than uniform wear....

Is this a frequent problem in some Squadrons? In the instances I mention, members were given enough options to where I've never seen anyone not in 'some type' of uniform that was on the approved list for the day.

We always wear G/Ws and Blues first meeting of the month for promotions, safety, etc. So assuming you were in our unit...we'd have an issue since you say you only have a polo...and don't think you need anything else.

Not to mention that the G/W (or the blues) is the minimum required uniform per the regulations

[THRAWN]

If a commander can't motivate a member to wear the UOD, there are more problems than uniform wear....

Is this a frequent problem in some Squadrons? In the instances I mention, members were given enough options to where I've never seen anyone not in 'some type' of uniform that was on the approved list for the day.

We always wear G/Ws and Blues first meeting of the month for promotions, safety, etc. So assuming you were in our unit...we'd have an issue since you say you only have a polo...and don't think you need anything else.

Not to mention that the G/W (or the blues) is the minimum required uniform per the regulations

That's a point that some people are failing to grasp.

[Damron]

If the UoD is 'X',  and you show up wearing something else, and I'm the Project Officer, I will send you home. It's not a comfort issue, it's not a financial issue, it's an integrity issue. You took that oath when you signed up, and this is one of those situations it applies to. In the end, you will be the one missing out, not me, or the event.

If my deputy commander sent a member  home from a weekly meeting for a uniform issue, he wouldn't be my deputy commander any longer.

You're right. He should be the commander.

Tonight, I'm attending a meeting that will be attended by three cadets that had their home burn to the ground this week.  I'll be happy to see them in any attire.  There are any number of good excuses that I'd accept. 

I didn't even need a hypothetical example to make you look like a pedant.

Charming. Yep, I'm stuck on details. Remember that when your SUI comes up. There are rules. They are written down, and all that you need to do is follow them if you want to be a member of this organization. Spend more time looking at them, and less time looking for excuses on how to avoid them and CAP will be a stronger organization.

So, you think that a failure to wear the correct uniform should automatically result in a trip home without any consideration of the circumstances or history? That was the statement I was responding to.

Beyond that, you think my failure to agree with such a statement suggests that I fail to understand the rules or unwilling to effectively enforce the rules in my unit?

You suggest I'm looking for excuses not to follow the rules when I'm able to provide examples where sending a member home for a uniform violation would be inappropriate and unwarranted?

I understand the rules, enforcement of the rules is what we are talking about.  If the rules said automatically send somebody home as a result of a uniform issue, I would follow the rule.  For good reason, CAP regulations rarely mandate specific means of enforcement. Why? Because context matters and unit commanders are expected to use good judgment and effective strategies to enforce the rules.

Last night, three of my members that lost their home on Sunday showed up in new BDU and boots. Their uniforms lacked required items.   No, I didn't send them home for their uniform violations.  Context matters. 

[Somewhat surprised that mention of a family with four members losing their home didn't yield a reaction from anybody.]

[PHall]

If the UoD is 'X',  and you show up wearing something else, and I'm the Project Officer, I will send you home. It's not a comfort issue, it's not a financial issue, it's an integrity issue. You took that oath when you signed up, and this is one of those situations it applies to. In the end, you will be the one missing out, not me, or the event.

If my deputy commander sent a member  home from a weekly meeting for a uniform issue, he wouldn't be my deputy commander any longer.

You're right. He should be the commander.

Tonight, I'm attending a meeting that will be attended by three cadets that had their home burn to the ground this week.  I'll be happy to see them in any attire.  There are any number of good excuses that I'd accept. 

I didn't even need a hypothetical example to make you look like a pedant.

Charming. Yep, I'm stuck on details. Remember that when your SUI comes up. There are rules. They are written down, and all that you need to do is follow them if you want to be a member of this organization. Spend more time looking at them, and less time looking for excuses on how to avoid them and CAP will be a stronger organization.

So, you think that a failure to wear the correct uniform should automatically result in a trip home without any consideration of the circumstances or history? That was the statement I was responding to.

Beyond that, you think my failure to agree with such a statement suggests that I fail to understand the rules or unwilling to effectively enforce the rules in my unit?

You suggest I'm looking for excuses not to follow the rules when I'm able to provide examples where sending a member home for a uniform violation would be inappropriate and unwarranted?

I understand the rules, enforcement of the rules is what we are talking about.  If the rules said automatically send somebody home as a result of a uniform issue, I would follow the rule.  For good reason, CAP regulations rarely mandate specific means of enforcement. Why? Because context matters and unit commanders are expected to use good judgment and effective strategies to enforce the rules.

Last night, three of my members that lost their home on Sunday showed up in new BDU and boots. Their uniforms lacked required items.   No, I didn't send them home for their uniform violations.  Context matters. 

[Somewhat surprised that mention of a family with four members losing their home didn't yield a reaction from anybody.]

Probably because the subject of the family was not relevant to the subject being discussed.

[abdsp51]

If my deputy commander sent a member  home from a weekly meeting for a uniform issue, he wouldn't be my deputy commander any longer.

Say the guy who got butt hurt about a patch coming off and would change the reg to suit him....

[Damron]

Say the guy who got butt hurt about a patch coming off and would change the reg to suit him....

You're an idiot if that's what you extracted from that thread. 

T

[THRAWN]

Say the guy who got butt hurt about a patch coming off and would change the reg to suit him....

You're an idiot if that's what you extracted from that thread. 

T

Nice personal attack and juvenile name calling. Very constructive demonstration of core values.

[Damron]

Say the guy who got butt hurt about a patch coming off and would change the reg to suit him....

You're an idiot if that's what you extracted from that thread. 

T

Nice personal attack and juvenile name calling. Very constructive demonstration of core values.

Not an attack.  Words have meaning and I chose those appropriate for the context.   

[etodd]

Not to mention that the G/W (or the blues) is the minimum required uniform per the regulations

Yes. The minimum required to be in one's possession. But is perfectly ok with regs to stay in the closet until the UOD requires it to be worn. I'm always in an acceptable uniform per what is specified for UOD.

Thats still my point for my area. Its just never been required of me yet to only have one choice of UOD for an event and it be something I do not own.  The uniform issue just never gets talked about in my area. It was only after finding CAPTalk that I realized uniforms were a big deal in other areas of the country.

(Edited to add that I'm talking about Senior members. Our local Cadet program is wholly different with its emphasis on different UOD for each meeting of the month, inspections, etc. Our Seniors are always in an acceptable UOD for 'them' so that we are a good example for the Cadets. But we may not be wearing the same as the Cadets.)

[Chappie]

Say the guy who got butt hurt about a patch coming off and would change the reg to suit him....

You're an idiot if that's what you extracted from that thread. 

T

Nice personal attack and juvenile name calling. Very constructive demonstration of core values.

^ ^ ^ Haven't had so much fun on a Friday since I was in the 4th grade when Dan G. hit Ben A. over getting hit really hard during a game of 4 Square at Blanchard School -- circa 1959.

[abdsp51]

Say the guy who got butt hurt about a patch coming off and would change the reg to suit him....

You're an idiot if that's what you extracted from that thread. 

T

Your own words not mine.  And if you are a commander I feel sorry for your folks.

[vorteks]

Not to mention that the G/W (or the blues) is the minimum required uniform per the regulations

Yes. The minimum required to be in one's possession. But is perfectly ok with regs to stay in the closet until the UOD requires it to be worn. I'm always in an acceptable uniform per what is specified for UOD.

Thats still my point for my area. Its just never been required of me yet to only have one choice of UOD for an event and it be something I do not own.  The uniform issue just never gets talked about in my area. It was only after finding CAPTalk that I realized uniforms were a big deal in other areas of the country.

(Edited to add that I'm talking about Senior members. Our local Cadet program is wholly different with its emphasis on different UOD for each meeting of the month, inspections, etc. Our Seniors are always in an acceptable UOD for 'them' so that we are a good example for the Cadets. But we may not be wearing the same as the Cadets.)

+1

FAQS FOR ADULTS

Do I have to wear a uniform?
Senior members may be required to wear a uniform during some activities - such as when flying in CAP aircraft. Senior members may wear the USAF style blue uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms.  However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform.  You can purchase uniform items from Vanguard.  www.civilairpatrolstore.com.

[Damron]

Say the guy who got butt hurt about a patch coming off and would change the reg to suit him....

You're an idiot if that's what you extracted from that thread. 

T

Your own words not mine.  And if you are a commander I feel sorry for your folks.

Your feelings are duly noted.

[Alaric]

Not to mention that the G/W (or the blues) is the minimum required uniform per the regulations

Yes. The minimum required to be in one's possession. But is perfectly ok with regs to stay in the closet until the UOD requires it to be worn. I'm always in an acceptable uniform per what is specified for UOD.

Thats still my point for my area. Its just never been required of me yet to only have one choice of UOD for an event and it be something I do not own.  The uniform issue just never gets talked about in my area. It was only after finding CAPTalk that I realized uniforms were a big deal in other areas of the country.

(Edited to add that I'm talking about Senior members. Our local Cadet program is wholly different with its emphasis on different UOD for each meeting of the month, inspections, etc. Our Seniors are always in an acceptable UOD for 'them' so that we are a good example for the Cadets. But we may not be wearing the same as the Cadets.)

+1

FAQS FOR ADULTS

Do I have to wear a uniform?
However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform.  You can purchase uniform items from Vanguard.  www.civilairpatrolstore.com.

This is not borne out by the CAPM 39-1 clearly states the requirements clearly

1.2. Wear of the CAP Uniform.

1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.

1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.

1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph

[vorteks]

Not to mention that the G/W (or the blues) is the minimum required uniform per the regulations

Yes. The minimum required to be in one's possession. But is perfectly ok with regs to stay in the closet until the UOD requires it to be worn. I'm always in an acceptable uniform per what is specified for UOD.

Thats still my point for my area. Its just never been required of me yet to only have one choice of UOD for an event and it be something I do not own.  The uniform issue just never gets talked about in my area. It was only after finding CAPTalk that I realized uniforms were a big deal in other areas of the country.

(Edited to add that I'm talking about Senior members. Our local Cadet program is wholly different with its emphasis on different UOD for each meeting of the month, inspections, etc. Our Seniors are always in an acceptable UOD for 'them' so that we are a good example for the Cadets. But we may not be wearing the same as the Cadets.)

+1

FAQS FOR ADULTS

Do I have to wear a uniform?
However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform.  You can purchase uniform items from Vanguard.  www.civilairpatrolstore.com.

This is not borne out by the CAPM 39-1 clearly states the requirements clearly

1.2. Wear of the CAP Uniform.

1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.

1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.

1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph

There's no contradiction. "[W]ill obtain and maintain for wear" does not mean "shall wear". Fact is, for senior members, wearing a uniform is optional except for certain types of activities or situations.