Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[husker]

The moral of that story is that you always have things to learn, and if Lt. Col. Long assigns you as a MRO to another school, you're probably not part of his A-Team....right, Husker?

Probably a fair assessment.

[Meridius]

I am from both worlds, Ranger, and now NESA.  I am prior service Army Airborne.  Before enlisting I was an Eagle Scout.  I have respect for the NESA instructors and the Hawke Mountain NCSA, as well as the North Carolina Ranger School.  Additionally, my hat's off to Lt. Col Long for he molds hundreds of cadets and seniors into competent ground team members through him and his staff.  (Met him this summer, though he probably would not remember me individually.)  Outside of PAWG, CAP Rangers are integrated into ground teams on missions as needed like everyone else.  The arrogance of the program's (Hawke) graduates is unfortunate and sometimes becomes a big distraction from, otherwise, a wonderful program.  The young C/SMSgt from Wisconsin is proving that very point in this thread with a bunch of his Ranger buddies probably cringing.

The Hawke Mountain Ranger activity draws from CAP, active military, and the Boy Scouts as its formative roots.  It has its own traditions. And, it is a premiere high intensity training site and the activity produces fine ground team members with excellent training that does exceed GSAR in some ways.  Not that GSAR fails in anyway, ES qualifications should the incorporate basic useful knots through R1, primary wilderness survival and advance orienteering, as prerequisites to GTM3, GTM2, and GTM1/GTL. 

In my opinion, the knots, hikes, and the fire building are the most useful additions the the GTM3/2/1 series that the Ranger quals add.  These are also requirements for Eagle Scout through the BSA. This is my opinion based on my background and most likely not shared by everyone.  However, with that said, Col Long does comment on this board and others from NESA and Hawke will most likely read it.  With respect, I hope they consider this as a positive suggestion and, likewise, possibly move the ES qualifications in a positive direction with the above consideration.

"These things we do so others may live."   

[Luis R. Ramos]

Not everyone needs to know knots, wilderness survival, etc to become a Ground Team Member or use them in their searches.

I have been in CAP for about 15 years, and been in several missions in the Long Island, Rockland County, Orange County, and New York City areas. With another two missions in New Jersey.

Not once have I had a need for any fancy knot.

Our environment is mostly Urban and Suburban. Any fancy rescue will be done by EMTs and Paramedics. There are some little hills called mountains by some in those counties. For instance, Bear Mountain. High Tor and Little Tor, two peaks in South Mountain. Driving north is another story. We find the Adirondacks, which put Bear Mountain and South Mountain to shame.

Maybe we need another task for those that live in a mostly rural, high rise environment?

[grunt82abn]

I am from both worlds, Ranger, and now NESA.  I am prior service Army Airborne.  Before enlisting I was an Eagle Scout.  I have respect for the NESA instructors and the Hawke Mountain NCSA, as well as the North Carolina Ranger School.  Additionally, my hat's off to Lt. Col Long for he molds hundreds of cadets and seniors into competent ground team members through him and his staff.  (Met him this summer, though he probably would not remember me individually.)  Outside of PAWG, CAP Rangers are integrated into ground teams on missions as needed like everyone else.  The arrogance of the program's (Hawke) graduates is unfortunate and sometimes becomes a big distraction from, otherwise, a wonderful program.  The young C/SMSgt from Wisconsin is proving that very point in this thread with a bunch of his Ranger buddies probably cringing.

The Hawke Mountain Ranger activity draws from CAP, active military, and the Boy Scouts as its formative roots.  It has its own traditions. And, it is a premiere high intensity training site and the activity produces fine ground team members with excellent training that does exceed GSAR in some ways.  Not that GSAR fails in anyway, ES qualifications should the incorporate basic useful knots through R1, primary wilderness survival and advance orienteering, as prerequisites to GTM3, GTM2, and GTM1/GTL. 

In my opinion, the knots, hikes, and the fire building are the most useful additions the the GTM3/2/1 series that the Ranger quals add.  These are also requirements for Eagle Scout through the BSA. This is my opinion based on my background and most likely not shared by everyone.  However, with that said, Col Long does comment on this board and others from NESA and Hawke will most likely read it.  With respect, I hope they consider this as a positive suggestion and, likewise, possibly move the ES qualifications in a positive direction with the above consideration.

"These things we do so others may live."   

AATW!!! 1-505 & 1-509

[Spaceman3750]

... hikes, ...

Not sure who you are (if it's in your sig I'm on Tapatalk), but if you didn't get your fill of walking, I'm sure if you come back next year we can rectify the situation .

Sincerely,

Yet another GSAR staff member

[Spam]

Just as with the old saying, 'Travel broadens the mind", I've always held that continued training should ideally be a "BOTH/AND" and not an "EITHER/OR" stove piped solution.

A certain narrowness of viewpoint from not being exposed to other methods and points of view does tend to contribute to chest-thumping arrogance in any human group.

Yet, beware the final reaction of those who cannot accept that their little world might not be "the best" ever.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave


V/R
Spam

[winterg]

Not everyone needs to know knots, wilderness survival, etc to become a Ground Team Member or use them in their searches.

I have been in CAP for about 15 years, and been in several missions in the Long Island, Rockland County, Orange County, and New York City areas. With another two missions in New Jersey.

Not once have I had a need for any fancy knot.

Our environment is mostly Urban and Suburban. Any fancy rescue will be done by EMTs and Paramedics. There are some little hills called mountains by some in those counties. For instance, Bear Mountain. High Tor and Little Tor, two peaks in South Mountain. Driving north is another story. We find the Adirondacks, which put Bear Mountain and South Mountain to shame.

Maybe we need another task for those that live in a mostly rural, high rise environment?

We have that. It's called UDF.

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Luis R. Ramos]

No, we do NOT have it.

UDFs are for a CITY environment.

I stated that ropes and all that ranger stuff are NOT suited for most places where GTMs go out.

So we may STILL NEED a new specialty for all those gungho rangers who want to do missions on what may be the equivalent of the Grand Canyon or slightly under!

[Panzerbjorn]

I am from both worlds, Ranger, and now NESA.  I am prior service Army Airborne.  Before enlisting I was an Eagle Scout.  I have respect for the NESA instructors and the Hawke Mountain NCSA, as well as the North Carolina Ranger School.  Additionally, my hat's off to Lt. Col Long for he molds hundreds of cadets and seniors into competent ground team members through him and his staff.  (Met him this summer, though he probably would not remember me individually.)  Outside of PAWG, CAP Rangers are integrated into ground teams on missions as needed like everyone else.  The arrogance of the program's (Hawke) graduates is unfortunate and sometimes becomes a big distraction from, otherwise, a wonderful program.  The young C/SMSgt from Wisconsin is proving that very point in this thread with a bunch of his Ranger buddies probably cringing.

The Hawke Mountain Ranger activity draws from CAP, active military, and the Boy Scouts as its formative roots.  It has its own traditions. And, it is a premiere high intensity training site and the activity produces fine ground team members with excellent training that does exceed GSAR in some ways.  Not that GSAR fails in anyway, ES qualifications should the incorporate basic useful knots through R1, primary wilderness survival and advance orienteering, as prerequisites to GTM3, GTM2, and GTM1/GTL. 

In my opinion, the knots, hikes, and the fire building are the most useful additions the the GTM3/2/1 series that the Ranger quals add.  These are also requirements for Eagle Scout through the BSA. This is my opinion based on my background and most likely not shared by everyone.  However, with that said, Col Long does comment on this board and others from NESA and Hawke will most likely read it.  With respect, I hope they consider this as a positive suggestion and, likewise, possibly move the ES qualifications in a positive direction with the above consideration.

"These things we do so others may live."   

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Yes, every bit of this.  While I have no suggestions as to what should be added or subtracted from the curriculum at any of the schools, Meridus vocalizes pretty much what I have thought at Hawk Mountain graduates who display the over-inflated ego.  As an Eagle Scout and two-time Philmont vet, there's not too much in the Ranger program that I didn't already learn in the Boy Scouts at one point or another.  It's ALL useful in the right circumstances.  It's been my personal experience that my cadets don't come back from the Hawk thinking they are God's gift to SAR.  They come back eager to apply and teach what they learned and motivated to do more at the next level.

The rope work builds confidence, not makes cadets vertical rescue specialists.  Just because you're not likely to be rappelling from hangars to silence an ELT doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taught.  It enriches the cadet experience and broadens the horizons.  To say that we shouldn't teach knots because we do most of our work in urban or suburban environments is ridiculous.  It just makes someone all the more capable.  You don't have to know every knot in the book, but there are a lot of useful ones that you use very frequently.

[Holding Pattern]

rappelling from hangars to silence an ELT

I just added this to my CAP bucket list.

[Eclipse]

Until CAP actually defines the mission and scope, discussions of ratings and training are irrelevant.

What we have today is a mish-mash of training which supported CAP's historical missions with
stuff tacked-on here and there, or things being performed which aren't even vetted since there's no actual rating.

With that said, I don't think anyone has to worry about CAP doing urban SAR any  time soon.

It might be nice to see some DR capabilities accounted for in at least the same level at the rhetoric in the press releases.

[husker]

How rare is it for non graduates to be accepted on staff?

C/Labonte, I have been remiss in not answering your question.  I would have to go back and look at the actual numbers, but the number of NESA GSAR cadet staff who have not previously attended the program it is low enough to be statistically insignificant (senior members are a different story).  There are a few reasons for this, but it can be generally summed up with two sides of the same coin – attitude and culture. We strive to have a very specific culture in NESA GSAR - one that puts the student first, and one that bases its training on our customer's needs.  Part of that culture is following the appropriate regulations and task guide evaluation criteria; as such, everything we do is based on what our members accomplish on a typical sortie/mission ("typical" being a rather amorphous term).  There is no PT, yelling, or other "cadetish" things in GSAR - the closest thing we have to that is simply lining up by teams for accountability and movement.  As a matter of fact, we do not differentiate senior vs. cadet at all - we only have "students."  We are certainly not perfect by any stretch, but we are always striving to improve.

I look for very specific things with staff members – skills are only part of the equation.  Attitude, knowledge, and the ability to embrace the correct culture are equally important.  My average GSAR cadet staffer is older (17-18), active in ES training in their local area, and has served on NESA staff for multiple years.  It is very rare that we do not have enough previous attendee staff to come help; then we do some targeted recruiting.  Sometimes, this has gone well (we had a first year staff cadet from Illinois this past summer who worked out very well for us), and sometimes it has not gone so well.  In addition, I've had staff members who were trained at NESA that I did not invite back. 

You are young to be GTM1, so I applaud your enthusiasm and drive.  As others have mentioned in this thread, it is very important that you broaden your horizons and continue to train.  Participating in other training (national, wing, or local programs), SAREXs, or even unit meeting ES training makes both yourself and the organization stronger.  I am responsible for another large scale Wing Based ES training program (ALWG WESS) as well – it is very common that my WESS AGSAR graduates go up to NESA and do the AGSAR program there.  Skills are perishable – continue to learn and hone your skills.   If you want to staff NESA, come next year.  Be a student in AGSAR the first week and work in communications the second; I know your unit commander, we can make it happen.

Though I enjoy a philosophical discussion about ES curriculum as much as the next person (well, maybe I enjoy it more than the next person), the curriculum is an entirely different topic.  I agree, there are some things that the curriculum desperately needs, first and foremost an update and some DR training/ratings.  However, as an organization, we struggle even now to train our members to the evaluation criteria in the task guide as is.  As an example, I had a cadet this past year at NESA who applied for AGSAR (and had a valid GTM3 SQTR), who had never seen the green GTM task guide.

FWIW, we do a fair number of "extra" things at NESA that are not required, including knots and long distance orienteering.  Our schedules are openly available on the NESA site under GSAR. 

[Why Even]

If you want to staff NESA, come next year.  Be a student in AGSAR the first week and work in communications the second; I know your unit commander, we can make it happen.

Thank you Sir! I will definitely try this, as I was looking into the NESA Wilderness First Aid Course, as it looks very interesting! Also, thank you for letting me know about the communications opportunity! This is something that I have been learning very recently, and that I found that I enjoy very much! Again, thank you Sir!

[Meridius]

... hikes, ...

Not sure who you are (if it's in your sig I'm on Tapatalk), but if you didn't get your fill of walking, I'm sure if you come back next year we can rectify the situation .

Sincerely,

Yet another GSAR staff member

In no way was I referring to NESA or most likely any other NCSA.  I want to bring this back up to highlight this point: if and when the GTM series are revisited, adding a 2.5 and/or 5 mile hike and basic knots to the SQTR should be considered.  Therefore, the training standards are applied equally to anyone seeking these qualifications that are taught at the squadron or WESS level and do not go to NESA or a NCSA like Hawk Mountain.  I would add wilderness survival to GTM1/Advanced as well. 

Just this last fiscal year, my squadron has participated in two SARs in the wilderness that required stamina and the search was conducted in rough terrain.  In these instances, while we had HMRS/NC Rangers we also had many GTMs w/o specialized training (they all did fantastic and many wear decorations).   It would have been easy to lose a team member to an injury and extracting him/her or the person of interest would have been extremely difficult.

[Майор Хаткевич]

... Never mind.

[USACAP]

That's good advice, Panzerbjorn!

Yup, thanks for the advice! I am GTM 1 already, plus I'm MRO, MSA, and UDF qualified. How rare is it for non graduates to be accepted on staff?

Oh, one more piece of advice....This is how you responded to the NESA GSAR Commadant addressing you.  So, by addressing the Commadant as such, you probably blew your "exception, rather than the rule" opportunity out of the water. Here's how that response really should have gone...

"Yes sir.  Thank you for the response.  I am very interested in serving on your staff, and I have my GTM1, MRO, MSA, and UDF qualifications.  If attending your school would help secure a position on staff, I look forward to doing that.  Is there any other advice you could give that would make me a more ideal staff member?"

That's just my experience opinion.