Advice on Packing a 24-Hour Pack... Mil-Tec III Assault Pack

[Luis R. Ramos]

Hi-

I just got a new Mil-Tec III pack. I find it is smaller than what I have used before as my 24-hour pack, an ALICE medium pack. I think I may fit everything I have in my ALICE just because of the pockets.

Having said that, anyone here owns the Mil-Tec III, and uses it as their 24-hour pack?

If so, how do you pack it? What do you put on each pocket?

[Holding Pattern]

I'm interested in this as well, as I have one in my shopping cart.

[RMW14]

I can't offer any advice for the Mil-Tec III but I have found that packing a 24hr pack is all up to the person. I tend to pack my 24 hour pack with the things I use most frequently in the most accessible positions.

I have a Mystery Ranch 3 day assault pack that hold my 24hr gear plus sleeping accommodations that include a tarp, hammock, and a poncho liner. Those are at the bottom of my pack so I have to open the large portion to prepare to sleep.

[Spam]

Good choice sir; our unit has standardized on such a pack for a decade now, reserving ALICE rucks for our base gear - but, what doesn't fit in the small pack? 

Perhaps I should rephrase: are there items you are trying to put in the DAY pack beyond the standard tactical gear list in Task 0001?

V/R
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

I have not moved anything from one to the other yet.

I just want to know what others have done.

A visual impression I get from looking at both is that the ALICE pack seems to be bigger.

[winterg]

This is my pack of choice.  I find that it makes it easier if you add 1 or 2 of the triple m-16 mag pouches on the side for items.  The jacket and tarp take up the most space.  They are annoying, but they are required so I have them.  I can take a pic of where I have what when I get home. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Spam]

This is my pack of choice.  I find that it makes it easier if you add 1 or 2 of the triple m-16 mag pouches on the side for items.  The jacket and tarp take up the most space.  They are annoying, but they are required so I have them.  I can take a pic of where I have what when I get home. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

See, that's the thing I meant about reading "required" things into Task 0001.  There's no requirement to stow a field jacket in your 24 hour gear in the task, and the "tarp" requirement you cite is for shelter material, and that requirement expressly is annotated in the task that it can be met by a military poncho (which also meets the "optional gear" need for raingear). Solution: get a mil spec poncho, fold it flat, inner pocket, done.

Can't disagree with you on the utility of adding some mag pouches. I prefer the canvas M14 wide mouth pouches, but haven't needed their weight nor their storage capacity for required gear in years.  Minimizing the junk = lighter = less effort = more capability as a searcher.



Mr. Ramos, I hear what you're saying now about packing. The general rule in my unit with this pack has been to put the first aid kit into the outside, smaller pocket for immediate access (if we all put our individual kits on that outside pocket, I know for example where a member would keep his Epi-pen in a sting allergy emergency).  Working back to front, then, we typically put frequently accessed SAR kit material in that first compartment (gloves, light, water, etc.) and the subsistence gear (meals, etc.) in the compartment closest to the back of the wearer, as it is typically heavier and is better worn closer to the c.g. of the hiker.

The only thing we really tend to push though is to have our team members standardize on where those self-aid first aid packs are, for quick access.

Well, that and I'd strongly recommend getting an ALICE type compass pouch for your compass, and securing it to one of the shoulder straps, after securing your compass to it via a 550 cord lanyard. Secure one end to the compass, pass the running end through the grommet in the bottom of the compass pack, make a tight knot bigger than the grommet, (burn/melt as reqd.) and trim the excess.

Hope this helps,
Spam

[Eclipse]

Make sure the items indicated to be "on your person", are not in the day pack (other then long-term stowage).

Those items are specifically not supposed to be packed in something that could become separated
from your body because they can save your life if your day pack tumbles down a hill or sinks to the bottom of a stream.
IMHO the compass should be included in that list, but it isn't so que-sera.

The watch should probably be updated to include "cell phone".  A watch with a compass on it would literally save your life,
but note the mirror,whistle, and knife aren't supposed to be packed.

24 hour pack
1) On your person:
a) Complete BDU uniform with BDU cap. The BDU cap may be replaced by a hard hat
or bright colored cap based on mission needs.(T)
b) Notepad and pencil (T)
c) All CAP Identification, including 101 card, 76 card, First Aid card, etc. (T)
d) Watch (T)
e) Handkerchief or Tissues
f) Vest, reflective, orange (T)
g) Comb or brush (optional, carry if needed) (T)
h) Ground Team Member's Handbook
i) Signal Mirror
j) Whistle
k) Pocket or utility-type knife, multipurpose with can opener. Swiss Army knives,
Leatherman, or Gerber Tools are recommended. (T)

[winterg]

Spam, I have to disagree.  For the shelter material, the task says you can use a spare poncho for this item.  So I can either carry a poncho and shelter material or I can carry two ponchos. No real savings on volume either way. 

As for the jacket, I don't carry a field jacket.  I have a gortex jacket.  I live in Florida. Trust me. It is NECESSARY. Lol

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Eclipse]

I have a hammock with a rain fly for the shelter.  Not much more volume-wise then
the typical ponchos or tarps, etc..

Assuming I can find some carbon nontube reinforced trees to hold up my mass, it'd be more pleasant
in a field situation then something on the ground, and if not, it can work as a typical lean-to or a-shaped shelter
tent.

[Spam]

Oh, I hear you on the FLWG climate!  I was a GTL in South Brevard Comp. Sqdn for five years, came in second after Max Ortiz in the '90 FLWG SARCOMP when our COV broke... yet, not one of the hundreds of Florida GTM/Ls in the '80s and '90s then did poorly without a goretex jacket (we just broke out the multi use milspec ponchos and saved on the weight/bulk). The jacket is a carry or tie on item, though, not a stow item, I think we'd agree?


I looked at the list again, and the way its worded it does indeed seem to imply that you need to carry two ponchos, or one plus a big tarp. That isn't how we wrote the original MDWG "yellow book" in the 90s which many (most) of these tasks were copied from. It seems that somewhere along the line, the tinkering introduced more gear than the intended CONOPS really had meant (i.e. 2 members snap together 1 poncho each over a taut line for a poncho shelter, in the rare instance of needing shelter without base gear). Doubling the necessary rain shelter mass per searcher is, I think, not what was intended and is a bad idea.


Eclipse makes some good points as well about cell phones (I'd add other electronics as well, but that's a separate thread). The list is very outdated, confusing, and in my opinion a bit bloated. Bottom line, the personal 24 hr gear should be light minima for individuals, reserving heavy shelter stuff for the base gear.


Perhaps the nascent rewrite team will consider this (I've not heard back from that team, they probably are stood down awaiting NHQ's pubs revision decrees from on high).


V/R
Spam

[Spam]

I have a hammock with a rain fly for the shelter.  Not much more volume-wise then
the typical ponchos or tarps, etc..

Assuming I can find some carbon nontube reinforced trees to hold up my mass, it'd be more pleasant
in a field situation then something on the ground, and if not, it can work as a typical lean-to or a-shaped shelter
tent.

I'd love that option in my base gear. Given my mass though, I'd present the appearance of a McDonalds or Whattaburgers sign by morning (those poor trees)!

Over the decades, I've spent many a night on an actual mission either awake and working, or crashed on a hangar/trailer floor, or on the back seat of a vehicle. Only on a couple actual missions have I ever had the time (or not been so tired) to break out erect and use a shelter. Therefore, I tend to "train like I intend to fight", and in recent years I just "Sleep in the Jeep".


Which doubtless makes the poor trees relieved...

Cheers
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

I have done the same... That is, sleep in the car whenever I have had to stay overnight. Most of the time it was airshows. I carry the 24-hour and 72-hour packs just because they are required.

As for the canteens, I carry them but most of the time I have gone in a mission, they have been in New York City area. If I need water, drop into a 24-hour deli, restaurant, MacDonalds, or Burger King. Yet I carry the canteens (in the car) in case I need them...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Winterg-

You said you could take a photo of your pack. Will you do that, please?

The first item I re-thought about... My first aid kit is the Airborne plastic case in its pouch... It surely will not fit there... and it was suggested I use the smallest pouch at the top, cannot. I carry a pocket mask. And usually since I am asthmatic, my inhaler. At the moment I will have to use that smallest pocket for the pocket mask and my pump... since the equipment lists and other papers state that "all medication should be in the original container," the pocket does not give enough space with both the pocket mask and pump in box... Luckily the Airborne First Aid pouch does come with ALICE clips, will attach that pouch outside of the pocket... Before I threw all in the ALICE pack, threw all into the bag, plenty of space there for the Airborne first aid kit and pocket mask but when it was needed, a PITA to find!

What about food items? Do you carry other than MREs?

I have looked for other options such as food pouches marketed for campers. However the ones I have found come in pouches for two or more people, not for one. Maybe I have looked in the wrong place. Has anyone found a company that sells survival food or food for campers in packages for one person?

[winterg]

Luis,

I promise I will get those pics. Work ran me a little ragged yesterday and I forgot when I finally got home.

Your Mil-Tec should have a sleeve for a water bladder.  I ditched my canteens and added a 3 liter hydration bladder to my pack.  I usually maintain it about half full and it can be topped off if necessary.  To compliment that, I add a Lifestraw to my pack for long-term (read disaster) emergency water needs.  It is one of the very few non-task items I recommend for a kit and they are small enough to make them viable.

Since your First Aid kit needs are a little more than the basic required items, It may work if you put all the items in a large freezer bag and stow them in the lower outside compartment.  It would most likely take up much less space than the hard case you currently have.  Alternatively, look for a GP molle pouch you can attach to the side.  The PALS attachments on these packs unfortunately mean only a small or vertical pouch tends to work on the sides.

As for food.  I just use MRE's.  I used to carry Mountain Home, but unless you have their heater pouch, which is separate and bulky, you need a way to heat water to use them.  MRE's are just too convienient.

[winterg]

I had a few minutes before heading to work.  I hope these help.

I have a water bottle pouch attached on the left that tholds my poncho.  That way if I have to put it away wet while still out it does not get everything else wet in my pack.  My gortex and tarp are rolled together and attached underneath the pack to keep them out of the way.


Outside lower compartment: Flashnight, sheath knife, writing implements.  I also throw some gorp in here occasionally.


Main compartment 1 (furthest from back):  Survival kit in freezer bag, GTL gear, Lifestraw.


Main Compartment 2 (closest to back): Food, SAR kit in freezer bag, gloves, task guide.


Vest: My vest has pockets.  Everything listed to be on your person is kept in the right hand pocket.  My first aid kit in a zip lock bag is kept in the left hand pocket.


The vest is folded and attached to the pack using the built in webbing so it is all kept together.


Pack your kit however it works best for you.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It does have the sleeve for the water bladder.

Thanks for the pictures.

[Luis R. Ramos]

About a water bladder...

It came without a bladder. Went into the website, could not find one, there was a disclaimer. The website is for bulk purchases, for less than that to contact the retailers link. However there was no retailers link...

Went to Cheaper than Dirt, where I ordered the pack, and found a bladder not necessarily for a Mil-Tec. I ordered the 5ive Star Hydration Water Bladder 2.5 liter. $22.44 including shipping. There was a $1.99 discount...

I know, I could have/should have asked here for advice on getting a Mil-Tec bladder, or if not available, on getting one for this pack. Before I put the order in for the bladder.

Anyway the deed is done.

Does anyone have a contact for buying a Mil-Tec water bladder? Or advice on whether they are using any bladders when their packs have space for one but do not come with one?

[winterg]

I used a Camelback 3 liter in mine. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[NC Hokie]

I had a few minutes before heading to work.  I hope these help.

I have a water bottle pouch attached on the left that tholds my poncho.  That way if I have to put it away wet while still out it does not get everything else wet in my pack.  My gortex and tarp are rolled together and attached underneath the pack to keep them out of the way.

Is that the same pack as this one?
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/mil-tec-coyote-assault-pack-small-14002005-4046872175145.do?sortby=ourPicks&refType=&from=Search

[winterg]

Looks like the PALS attachments are different on that one.  It is a pretty common design now for a small molle pack and made by any number of manufacturers. There are versions that have much better PALS attachments on the sides than the one I have.  Pay close attention to that.

Try searching Amazon for MOLLE backpack or tactical backpack and you will see several versions of this pack.  It is popular so it is copied. Lots.  there are deals to be had on this pack if you shop around.

[Luis R. Ramos]

NC-The one you are asking about is the one I ordered.

It is not exactly the same but it is close enough.

There is no Y strap on the one sold by Cheaper Than Dirt.

This pack is "growing on me." I still have to make sure all items in the 24-hour pack will fit in there, but others in here are almost swearing that if I keep my items to those on the list I will be able to fit everything.

[Spam]

Yep, that's the pack we (GA045) standardized on after our comparative tests 10 years or so ago.

Your pictures are remarkably similar to most of our packs - 1st aid outer, tactical middle, subsistence and snivel gear inner. I carry my orange vest folded up tight in my thigh pocket.

One delta for me (personally) is that I ditched the bladder, as have many of my troops. We've seen multiple instances of black mold growth in the camelbak systems, leading to a few instances of actual sickness in personnel at encampments, etc. This is linked to people storing their gear with water in the bladders, or stowing it without adequately ventilating and drying the bladders.  The alternative that I now have gone to is to buy a couple of cases of cheap bottled water (e.g. Krogers or Publix store brand cases, for five bucks), and drawing the crushable plastic bottles from the back of the vehicle before each dismounted sortie. The bottles are refillable, but crushable after use to save space. The other alternative that we use is to keep a couple of mil spec jerry cans of water in the COV (a six pack 4x4 Dodge) to refill either the bottles or flex 1 Qt canteens, which are great.

See:  http://www.combatreform.org/flexibleonequartcanteens.htm

Also, if you ever want to make some gear trade offs like we did, here's some empirical data on unit mass:
http://www.combatreform.org/weighttable.htm

On food... I used to do field stripped MREs: strip out all the unused crap that you would not really eat, focusing just on the essential food. In recent years, experience from the Sandbox and Rockpile has brought that lesson home to the Natick Soldier Systems team, and they seem to have produced "combat" MREs that are already reduced to the essentials (if you like that, you can buy them online). I personally now go with using the space/mass fraction on energy bars, nuts, and crap like small Chef Boyardee cups in zip locks, plus more water (for the carbs and proteins and filling satisfaction, not the nutrients, grin).




You guys rock.

V/R
Spam

[Spam]

PS, your mileage may vary. I am the type of guy who advises new GTM3* strikers to keep their gear mass low, then when they cant keep up because they packed the kitchen sink, I have them dump their excess gear on the side of the trail to keep from slowing the team down.  If they're lucky, we'll come back by that way on the return leg to pick it up. If not, cache it and come back on their own time.

For example: a few years ago, one of my units teams had a fat, out of shape cadet trainee dump a bunch of his excess gear (brought against advice) a couple of thousand feet up in Cohutta Wilderness, and I don't think he recovered it. They carried him up by his arms at a couple of points, and assuaged his hurt feelings by letting him later shoot flares at my aircraft, overhead over the target, which both he and I thought was hilarious, afterwards.

Sorry if that offends, folks, but the customer comes first. As AFRCC says, Search Is An Emergency (this is not a gear collecting reenactor nerd thing).  Don't carry too much on your patrol packs.


V/R
Fat, out of shape Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

I knew of the bladder collecting mold in the drinking tube. It was brought home to me I think in the prelude to an encampment.

Was not aware them collecting mold elsewhere. Thanks for the heads-up. I will keep that in mind.

I will keep my canteens. One advantage the canteens have over the bladder is that I have a canteen cup and the stand for the cup that would allow me to boil water in the cup. No such capability with the bladder. Was thinking of putting a Nesbit in the 24-hour, but what do I use for a metal cup?

[winterg]

People neglect their gear and wonder why the flashlight batteries are dead, they're missing items they forgot to replace after the last SAREX, and why they get sick from the water left in their bladder for 6 months.

Bladders need to be cleaned like canteens do.  Regularly and thoroughly.  But I absolutely see the advantage in your method Spam. 99% of the time we are drinking the provided bottled water anyway instead of the water in our kit.

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Spam]

Mr. Ramos,

suggest you do a search on M1 NBC canteen cap drinking hose, as well, if you want camelbak capability with standard canteens.

The crushable soft sided canteens (1 and 2 qt.) are best for it.

Best,
Spam

[Eclipse]

PS, your mileage may vary. I am the type of guy who advises new GTM3* strikers to keep their gear mass low, then when they cant keep up because they packed the kitchen sink, I have them dump their excess gear on the side of the trail to keep from slowing the team down.  If they're lucky, we'll come back by that way on the return leg to pick it up. If not, cache it and come back on their own time.

For example: a few years ago, one of my units teams had a fat, out of shape cadet trainee dump a bunch of his excess gear (brought against advice) a couple of thousand feet up in Cohutta Wilderness, and I don't think he recovered it. They carried him up by his arms at a couple of points, and assuaged his hurt feelings by letting him later shoot flares at my aircraft, overhead over the target, which both he and I thought was hilarious, afterwards.

Sorry if that offends, folks, but the customer comes first. As AFRCC says, Search Is An Emergency (this is not a gear collecting reenactor nerd thing).  Don't carry too much on your patrol packs.

This presumably was not a CAP cadet, correct?

The GTL is responsible for both insuring the members are capable of accomplishing the mission, and that they have the proper gear.  The GBD is
is responsible for insuring the GTLs do their job in this regard.

Further to this, 72-hour gear is >NOT< carried while searching, nor is there any expectation or requirement within the CAP
GT curriculum that you can "ruck in / out", or any minimum distance, either.   The standard 24 should weight less the a typical schoolbag,
the extra should have been filtered out either during the gear tasking discussions, or at the ICP / rally point.

The argument as to whether there "should be" is relevent, since there isn't.

An adult leader who allows or expects an overpacked cadet who probably shouldn't have been on the mission to start
with to drop his gear and leave it is violating a number of important regulations and polices, not to mention common sense.

You're also littering.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It looks like I will be able to fit everything on the 24-hour list inside the new pack.

Biggest compartment, towards the back:
1 poncho, raingear. Eventually will be moved to the outside, strapped to the bottom.
1 extra poncho, shelter material.
1 MRE complete.
1 MRE main course, Mountain House veggies, spork, reheater.
(Some space left over)

Next compartment, middle of the pack:
1 ziplock bag with items listed on the SAR subset.
1 ziplock bag with items listed on the survival subset.
Insect repellent.
1 pair, work gloves.
1 orange safety vest, folded.
50 feet of paracord.

Two compartments left towards the front.

Bottom one:
Several copies of the following forms, need to place them in a ziplock bag:
2 copies, IC-211
5 copies, CAPF 109
5 copies, IC-214
5 copies, witness interrogation
1 copy of the different items lists prepared by New York Wing
1 GTL(T) SQTR
Batteries for the crook-neck flashlight, spares.
Batteries for my scanner, 4 AA and spare batteries.
Spare batteries for my small, second flashlight, 3 AAA.
Crook-neck flashlight-need to add, it is somewhere in the trunk!
Radio Shack scanner.
(Some space left over)

Smaller compartment, on top of the front part:
Personal medication, inhaler pump.
Pocket mask.
3 pairs, Nitrile exam gloves, non-sterile.

Attached to the outside loops:
1 First Aid kit, paratrooper type
1 compass in a pouch. The compass will be attached to a buttonhole of the coat like the whistle upon mission start.

Now I need to figure out whether or how I can carry all items required of a GTL!

[winterg]

National Parks Depot is now offering this pack with the water bladder included for $39.99 if anyone is interested. 

http://nationalparksdepot.us/products/outdoor-military-style-tactical-backpack-water-bladder

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[grunt82abn]

Just another source for bags, not advocating one certain bag over another, but a ton of products. I have ordered several from the military luggage and never had an issue.

http://www.militaryluggage.com

[winterg]

Just another source for bags, not advocating one certain bag over another, but a ton of products. I have ordered several from the military luggage and never had an issue.

http://www.militaryluggage.com

And they even have this pack [that we all agree is awesome] in ABU pattern for the same price of $29.99 that most of us are paying elsewhere.

http://www.militaryluggage.com/ABU-Small-Assault-Pack-p/80126abu.htm

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Used my new pack on a TRAEX on Sunday 17 Jul.

Worked better than the medium ALICE pack I used to use.

Carrying the ALICE, the straps moved from shoulders down to where the arms start. Granted I could have used a strap between both shoulder straps chest high with the ALICE.

The Mil-Tec straps did not slide down at all.

Was able to compartmentalize everything I needed using the Mil-Tec. What I carried in the ALICE I felt I was looking in a black hole when I needed something.

I thought I was not able to carry a scanner in the front compartment since the angle flashlight was also there. Then I put the angle flashlight with the head down, and was able to squeeze a little more free space...

I think overall a good buy.

[Spam]

Glad to hear it.  Bucky Barnes thought so - in the movie this summer, it was the one thing he saved when Captain America and GSG-9 came busting in (and it survived being thrown 10 stories and still buckled safely and comfortably for him to run with)!

V/R
Spam