Initial Promotion For Prior Military Officers and NCOs

[wingnut55]

CAP Reg. 35-5 stipulates that Senior Members can be promoted to the rank they achieved while on active duty. Not to exceed Lt. Col. However this is with the approval of the local Commander and must be approved in writing up the chain of Command to National.

I have run into commanders that refuse to promote, this has always been a non-veteran who does this. My technique to work through this is to have the Senior Member submit his/her DD-214, a professional Military resume, and a form 2. When I joined CAP in 1912, I had to do this because our promotion board chairman also refused to promote prior military. I failed to mention that at the time I complained to my group commander and he made a phone call to my commander to stop blocking promotions.

Once again I am running into this attitude while trying to get a highly decorated retired Marine combat Veteran Officer his initial promotion. Its been seven months, and the Commander wants to wait and see if the officer is a benefit to the Squadron.

What do you think ?   

[arajca]

As a commander, I'd never promote someone based on military or pilot or whatever on day 1. They need to complete level 1 AND take a staff position that is appropriate to what their requesting. I have told them at the outset, so there no misunderstanding. I've had folks want to join and the first thing they ask for is the advanced promotion. When I explain the process, I usually don't see them again. But I do have retire CFO as my asst. finance officer (he got an advanced promotion after being primary for three months). He's my assistant because he's a snowbird.

[Shuman 14]

When I joined CAP in 1912

I thought CAP wasn't formed until 1941? 

[Eclipse]

As a commander, I'd never promote someone based on military or pilot or whatever on day 1. They need to complete level 1 AND take a staff position that is appropriate to what their requesting.

+1

Once again I am running into this attitude while trying to get a highly decorated retired Marine combat Veteran Officer his initial promotion. Its been seven months, and the Commander wants to wait and see if the officer is a benefit to the Squadron.

and....what has he done for CAP which would be commensurate with the grade in question in those 7 months?

[wingnut55]

As a commander, I'd never promote someone based on military or pilot or whatever on day 1. They need to complete level 1 AND take a staff position that is appropriate to what their requesting. I have told them at the outset, so there no misunderstanding. I've had folks want to join and the first thing they ask for is the advanced promotion. When I explain the process, I usually don't see them again. But I do have retire CFO as my asst. finance officer (he got an advanced promotion after being primary for three months). He's my assistant because he's a snowbird.

So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy. For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force, A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.

Contrast that with the requirements to be a Commissioned Officer in the US Military. Education, Education, Education, proven command ability, designated technical skills, advanced education, advanced military tactics and military organization schools, minimum time in grade, no adverse events (social and Legal), maintain a security clearance as needed, proven leadership and supervisory skills, adherence to regulations and directives, years of deployments away from family, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.

Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?

So how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.

60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??

[Luis R. Ramos]

You need to read and look at the words...

CAP Reg. 35-5 stipulates that Senior Members can be promoted to the rank they achieved...

Does not mean that Nat HQ is saying "they are to be."

On the other hand, you are stating the regulation says that "all ex-military officers are to be, and should be promoted."

You need a dictionary. It does not mean that.

Although when I was Personnel Officer, my policy was to recommend the commander does approve that raise...

Arajca does have a sound policy.

[THRAWN]

Simmer down, Francis. The reg says may be advanced, not will be advanced. It is the discretion of the commander to recommend that a member be advanced. There are no guarantees for any advanced grade.

[arajca]

Finally I would like to add that as a veteran you offend me, I suspect you are not former military. In my little world of CAP much of my flying has been in direct support of the US Military of all branches. Most of the members that I work with are retired Military, do you think a local commander made them do the Michael Jackson moon walk before they pinned on there "used" Major oak leaf ?

I am a veteran.

So how is that recruitment of Experienced Dedicated Military Veterans working out for you??? It's not ! maybe you should stop spitting on real military achievements. respect the rank, and not mandate through dictatorial rules your delusional ideals.

Actually, it's working quite well. I don't hide anything or make them jump through unreasonable hoops. I currently have 5 (besides me) veterans, mostly officers, in my unit. I also have an active reservist. And a lawyer. In addition to my ex-CFO finance guy. Everyone was told up front this is what we want to see. None of them had any issues with it. Give them the rules, follow said rules, and they have no issues. The ones that had issues weren't ones we really wanted around, as we found out later.

60 years ago 90% of CAP members never rose above Warrant Officer, all former Military officers retained their former rank, very few CAP officers were promoted above captain, but to improve membership they created the myth of promotion. You on the other hand believe what??

You want recognition in CAP, contribute.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, veterans are not all-knowing god-like beings, that mere mortals are not fit associate with.

[MSG Mac]

I've had several former officers join our unit and they insisted that they not be promoted until they had earned it. All are still with the squadron. On the other hand as a member of the Group Promotion Board, we had a former Colonel who had been a member for 10 years who I recommended not get promoted because there was no record of his doing any PD in those 10 years.

[JeffDG]

So because of your personal opinion you refuse to follow CAP REG 35-5, It does not give you the Right to Refuse, or the right to add additional hoops to jump through at your discretion or fancy.

You might want to try reading the whole reg.  It actually does give a commander the "Right to Refuse"

1-6. Minimum Officer and Noncommissioned Officer Eligibility Requirements. To qualify
for initial appointment to CAP officer or NCO grade, members must meet the following
minimum requirements:
a. Be at least 21 years of age.
b. Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
c. Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program (see CAPR 50-17).
Former members who have completed Level I training and have less than a 2 year membership
break and former cadets who have earned the General Billy Mitchell Award or higher, and have
less than a 2 year membership break are exempt from the Foundations portion of Level I
training.
d. Be recommended for promotion by the unit commander.

So, by withholding said recommendation, the local commander has an explicit "Right to Refuse".

Specifically with respect to prior military special promotions:

3-4. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National
Guard Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active, retired or
resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but
not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience.
Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting
authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant
officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. The unit commander will
initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper
documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card or
promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

[kwe1009]

No promotion in CAP (or the military for that matter) is guaranteed or automatic. If you take a few minutes to read CAPR 35-5 you will see that none of the higher grade appointments are mandatory or automatic.  This includes prior military and others such as chaplains, lawyers, medical personnel, etc.  The policy within my Wing, and one that I completely support, is that the member must show a value to CAP beyond just paying annual dues.  The higher the promotion, the greater that value should be.  The advanced promotions are a sign of recognition of the member's previous experience and current value to CAP. 

[EMT-83]

I once had an issue with a retired Army Captain who insisted that he be promoted. He refused to wear the CAP uniform properly, thumbed his nose at regulations and was an all around pain in the ass. I recommended he not be promoted until he got his act together. This was approved by the squadron commander and blessed by the wing commander.

Today, he is a solid performer and key member of the squadron. Had he been handed an instant promotion, I doubt that would be the case.

[PHall]

Wingnut, the reg is pretty clear on this. The promotion is not automatic and is totally at the unit commanders discretion.
You making an end run around the unit commander by going to the Group Commander because your commander didn't give you an answer you liked is not going to make you any friends.
It's called jumping the chain of command and is very frowned on in the military and in CAP.
And I'm drawing a military retirement, so yes I'm a veteran.

[Holding Pattern]

So CAP wants to be part of the Military, But you decide what rules will be followed at the whim of a local commander, And I use that term with little respect, because in my over 40 year connection with CAP, most local commanders are chosen, solely because No one wants the job. The common joke is you pick the one who is sleeping.

So have you stepped up to be the commander? It sounds like this will solve all of your problems! You can promote veterans, you can break the pattern of "no one wants the job," and you can promote the Core Value of Respect at the same time!

[wingnut55]

I stand corrected, Thanks

[Flying Pig]

I approved 2 military grade promotions while I was the SqCC.  Both members ended up being completely worthless, if not even a liability.  However the mom, the dad, the retired plumber, the auto mechanic, the nurse and the local civilian CFI and retired school teacher were the people everyone remembers.  Well... and then theres me... the SqCC who was made famous because everyone else made me appear as if I had the leadership and management abilities of Sun Tzu.

That being said..... coming in as a veteran military officer or NCO, in my experience, has little to no correlation with the type of CAP member you become.  No more or no less than anyone else coming in off the street just looking to participate. So it is it sadistic and cruel to have a member prove they can be an asset before CAP approves an advanced promotion?  If you have any desire to have CAP rank be anything more than a recruiting tool.... then it may be something to consider.

[Flying Pig]

...  double post

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Although I am now an ex-member this is a topic that I found both interesting and troublesome.  The last membership cycle I was very quickly told I could have my military rank or have rank given based on the fact I was a fight instructor. 
Other than the basic leadership and land navigation skills very little of my military skill set would have been of value to the CAP.  (Unless the CAP has an Armor/Cavalry component I was totally unaware of). 

As a flight instructor to be virtually handed the rank of Captain on day 1 made no sense.  Maybe not on day 1, I was asked to complete Phase 1 first.

In fact, the entire 'rank' business of CAP as it is seems to be counter productive.  On one hand CAP wants to teach military values and courtesy to the cadets, and then undermines this almost immediately when the cadets see and hear a 2LT and an LTC addressing each other by first names, failing to salute, etc. 

And then seeing this same behavior carry over on active duty military bases where  CAP Members in sight and sound of active military really makes the CAP look professional.

Then handing out rank like Halloween candy to folks that have little idea of what the CAP even is.  Sorry Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard Guys, but all of us are way behind the curve on understanding the Civil Air Patrol until we have been trained (indoctrinated).

To my line of thinking if the Civil Air Patrol wants to use military rank, then all members seniors as well as cadets should be required to uphold the traditions, and values of military behavior and courtesy.  We expect a group of cadets to march in formation, but allow a mob of seniors to follow.

As I stated I am an ex-member and no longer have a dog in the fight.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Some units are better at this than others.

Admittedly, there's a poor way of compromising on Skills/former military experience. We have members who spend a decade or more getting to LtCol "organically", only to have people come in as a LtCol based on former military experience. Then we get into the arguments of "grade doesn't really mean anything". But then the members who do it organically hit all sorts of roadblocks when trying to work the PD, staff and leadership positions, and struggle to get Field Grade.

[DoubleSecret]

Some units are better at this than others.

Admittedly, there's a poor way of compromising on Skills/former military experience. We have members who spend a decade or more getting to LtCol "organically", only to have people come in as a LtCol based on former military experience. Then we get into the arguments of "grade doesn't really mean anything". But then the members who do it organically hit all sorts of roadblocks when trying to work the PD, staff and leadership positions, and struggle to get Field Grade.

When field grade officers can't submit a retired E-9 for promotion to CMSgt without a CMSgt reviewing (and essentially approving/disapproving) the field grade officers' submission, it's hard to claim with a straight face that grade below colonel means a whole bunch (beyond eligibility for certain positions, PME, and customs and courtesies).