Transgender Policy

[Storm Chaser]

Let's say CAP allows transgender cadets to wear the uniform of the gender they identify with. Let's say CAP allows them to use the bathroom facilities for that gender, and it allows them to lodge with that gender during overnight activities. What about the other cadets who may not be comfortable with that? What about the parents? What if they're opposed to that?

On the other hand, not allowing them to use the facilities of the gender they identify with could be considered discrimination by some. Providing gender neutral facilities could prove problematic as well. So what do we do?

It's not as simple of making up some rules. This issue is too complex to be addressed by CAP policy alone. I think it should be addressed by the state or federal government. That way we have clear guidelines that must be followed by not just CAP, but every organization that deals with youth.

[THRAWN]

Leave it to the government? The people thay brought you TSA and the Post Office? Good plan.

[Storm Chaser]

You make a point.

Then again, CAP can't be held liable for following the law, especially if it's common practice in schools and other youth and volunteer organizations.

[Eclipse]

Which CPFT chart do they use?

Psychological identity issues don't change the physiological reality of a male identifying as female in regards to objective PT tests.

[Storm Chaser]

Another good point.

[Spam]

A few months ago I received a call from a teen advising me that she was transgendered Female to Male, and asking if she could join.  I advised her that:
1. Meetings are open to the public and she was welcome to come
2. We have non-discrimination policies in place and value equal opportunity
3. She would be free to join, and that nothing in the "program" per se would limit her pursuit of being an outstanding CAP cadet.

With that said, however, when it comes to some uniforms, bathroom use, overnight practices, etc. I was unaware of any policies and would have to check on it.  She planned to visit but never showed up.

I checked with Wing Legal who advised me that there were no policies in place but that there was something in the works at the national level.In the absence of a specific policy she would be recognized by her biological gender.  This was before the President's proclamation about bathrooms in schools.

Whether or not anyone embraces this ideologically we will have to have some policy in place soon and training in how to deal with it.

Also, FWIW, I decided that any dialogue about the matter needed to be by email or in person with a second senior member present.  That way there would be a paper trail and witness to any conversation about the matter.

ArBar, it sounds like you handled that perfectly. That's only my opinion - that's how I would have handled it to that point, including ccing another CAP officer of course... I have our good pal Garibaldi copied on such messages for transparency/memo for record.


Should she hopefully eventually visit, the process is the same for ALL cadets - check their legal ID, verify that their paperwork matches that legal ID (including sex, I would point out) and that it has parental approval etc. and get them involved asap, including the Great Start curriculum, which emphasizes equal access and protection through the Wingman module (also, don't forget the annual EEO brief, which is always fun in my unit with Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists, homo and heterosexuals, cadets of every race and ethnicity, and all ages!).  So, then, she would be female for the administrative and logistical purposes of CAP, despite any mental issues or alignments she may subjectively feel, until such time that she legally changes status.


As she's self reporting some mental problems, the important factor is to ensure that this is not a barrier to membership and participation, which is protected per statute and regs, unless safety issues arise for her and others, and for which we should make reasonable accommodation. Some schools for example provide the use of a private staff restroom to such students, which isn't beyond the scope of "reasonable" for most CAP activities.  When and if her legal status changes, we can take that as it comes. However, just because a minor applicant expresses a wish to be something else is not grounds to upset the entire program to accommodate a mental disorder.


ArBar, best wishes to you; stay strong and be her defender should she show renewed interest and should any other members express opposition. She's worth it.


V/R
Spam


PS, to Ned - yes, to affirm my use of the term, I do call it a disorder. I intentionally use that term, as that's what is being discussed. If it is not a disorder but rather simply is perceived as a desire to pretend against reality - and to access off-limits areas with other peoples kids - what degree of protection and accommodation is required? So, absent a designation as protected individuals with mental disorders, what basis would I have to insist on these folks' inclusion in CAP's programs. 

Yes, I consider this a deviation from the norm, by definition, just as with other body dysmorphic disorders (e.g. self mutilators and cutters, two of whom I've had as fine CAP members over the decades). They need help, but from professionals not CAP officers, and they deserve celebration for achievement in the program, but not confirmation that mental illness is a thing to celebrate and tolerate. Mental illness needs treatment, not celebration or endorsement.


PPS Ned, once again, we may disagree on specifics but again I strongly appreciate your sincerity on behalf of the cadets.  Thanks.

[LSThiker]

Psychological identity issues don't change the physiological reality of a male identifying as female in regards to objective PT tests.

That is not entirely true.  As most states require either hormone replacement therapy or a sex reassignment surgery (which requires hormone replacement therapy afterwards), there are physiological changes that occur and there are some physiological changes that do not occur.  HRT includes the administration of estrogen, progestogens, antiandrogens, GnRH analogues, for male to female.  For female to male, the therapy includes testosterone, GnRH agonists, DMPA, and other supplements.  It depends on when the HRT was given (pre- or post-puberty), the direction of gender transition (male to female or female to male), and how long the therapy has been occuring.

For example, for a male to female, HRT will reduce muscle mass, increase breast development, redistribution of body fat from the belly to the hips.  However, it will not change characteristics such as deepening of voice (there is voice therapies and surgeries), bone density, thyroid cartilage development, width of shoulders, hair growth patterns.

For female to male, HRT will increase muscle mass, cause the development of facial and body hair, deepen the voice.  It will not change the length of arms and legs, feet size, pelvis structure, and rib cage structures. 

Will these changes entirely eliminate or provide additional advantages for something like a CPFT?  I do not know, it depends. 

[arBar]

There is a lack of a clear definition for "transgender" that leaves open that you can change your gender identity by the minute.  Serious transgender people are seeing a doctor and making life altering changes to their bodies.  While that would not be my choice, that is their choice and I will respect it.  By not labeling the rest of them as "serious" I do not mean to come across as disrespectful to those who have intentions of someday starting that process.  Countries have borders. Land owners have boundary lines.  Law enforcement has jurisdiction.  Sexual preference can be fluid.But gender has to have some starting point or boundary that defines it. Maybe it is as simple as a doctor's note or a parent's affidavit.  Thirteen year olds don't have drivers licenses to check against.  I just need to know whether to call the person a he or a she.

What concerns me is that without a concrete definition this is an easy excuse for people to take advantage of the label, eg.boys to see naked girls in locker rooms & such. That's been going on for ages but now they have an excuse.  Gender distinction runs through every part of our society. Rather than looking at is an an archaic thing, how about looking at through the lense of respect?  Because I respect you, I want to know how I can best accomodate you.

I'm not suggesting that every gender identity custom is to be rigorously maintained.  Customs change throughout time and location.  Men once wore wigs, women used to not wear pants, some men still wear skirts, I mean, kilts. Some men today have man-purses.  Our customs/prohibitions are sometimes silly, but they are really important to many people.

Maybe the one true solution is for everyone to go naked, then society would "get over" our sex obsession.  But that's not gonna happen.

I just want to show respect to someone without disrespecting others at the same time.  We need a national policy.  Making up our own local policy could be disastrous and litigious.

[Ned]

I just need to know whether to call the person a he or a she.

It is perfectly acceptable to simply ask them how they would like to be addressed.  And respectful.

I just want to show respect to someone without disrespecting others at the same time.  We need a national policy. 

NHQ agrees with you.  But for the very reasons you mentioned, it is not an easy one to draft.

[LSThiker]

I just need to know whether to call the person a he or a she.

It is perfectly acceptable to simply ask them how they would like to be addressed.  And respectful.

That is exactly what one should do, if appropriate.  From the GLAAD website:

Whenever possible, ask transgender people which pronoun they would like you to use.
    A person who identifies as a certain gender, whether or not that person has taken hormones or had some form of surgery, should be referred to using the pronouns appropriate for that gender.

If it is not possible to ask a transgender person which pronoun is preferred, use the pronoun that is consistent with the person's appearance and gender expression.
    For example, if a person wears a dress and uses the name Susan, feminine pronouns are usually appropriate.

There is a lack of a clear definition for "transgender" that leaves open that you can change your gender identity by the minute. 

There is a clear definition for transgender.  What there is not is a clear point at which a person becomes trans man or trans woman.  Generally speaking, it is when the person starts identifying with the opposite gender, such wear clothes of the opposite gender, using a pronoun of the opposite gender.  Most states require either HRT or SRS before changing the birth certificate. 

This point is being worked out at the Federal Government level, which we all know is slow.  To further slow the process, there is a lot of unknown to drafting a national policy.

[RNOfficer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

[Flying Pig]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

Oh good grief.   Are we really at a place in America where people are so out of touch with reality that they can't accept what biological sex they are?   And people think this is ok?    Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

[Pace]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

Oh good grief.   Are we really at a place in America where people are so out of touch with reality that they can't accept what biological sex they are?   And people think this is ok?    Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

Not one to normally stoke the flames, but the former Psychiatrist in Chief of the hospital system that invented the sex change operation for gender dysphoric individuals and then later abandoned the surgery because it was doing more harm than good has recenty spoken out extensively from a mental health perspective against supporting gender reassignment in gender dysphoric individuals. Not "PC" but an interesting read for sure.

[Spam]

I wonder if that might not count as "evidence based medical practice", as cited in another thread currently running (or at least from a preeminent and vast experience base). The PC Police and their associated thought crime SJW mobs very rarely align on the side of actual fact based science - very few religious thought police (right wing or left wing) ever do, as Galileo might attest.

Beliefs usually outweigh evidence, subjectively, leading to human error... which is why we're trained to fly the objective flight instruments, not our subjective feelings of which way is up and down.

V/R
Spam

[raivo]

Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

It's not that simple. Gender dysphoria is a relatively new subject in the field of mental health, and the jury is still out on the best way to treat it (i.e., whether it's better to physically transition the body to match the mind, or whether to provide therapy to the mind to cope with the physical body - or somewhere in between.)

It doesn't help that there's a very vocal faction which insists that people need to just "get over it" and refuses to admit that it's a real and complicated condition.

[Pace]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/us/oregon-nonbinary-transgender-sex-gender.html


A judge in Oregon has granted a petition allowing a person to legally choose neither sex and be classified as nonbinary: an important development for transgender Americans while civil rights and sexual identity are in the national spotlight, advocates and legal experts said.

Oh good grief.   Are we really at a place in America where people are so out of touch with reality that they can't accept what biological sex they are?   And people think this is ok?    Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

Not one to normally stoke the flames, but the former Psychiatrist in Chief of the hospital system that invented the sex change operation for gender dysphoric individuals and then later abandoned the surgery because it was doing more harm than good has recenty spoken out extensively from a mental health perspective against supporting gender reassignment in gender dysphoric individuals. Not "PC" but an interesting read for sure.

Here's the article if anyone is interested:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

[Flying Pig]

Why is this not being addressed as the mental health issue that it is?

It's not that simple. Gender dysphoria is a relatively new subject in the field of mental health, and the jury is still out on the best way to treat it (i.e., whether it's better to physically transition the body to match the mind, or whether to provide therapy to the mind to cope with the physical body - or somewhere in between.)

It doesn't help that there's a very vocal faction which insists that people need to just "get over it" and refuses to admit that it's a real and complicated condition.

For the record...Ive never said "just get over it".  It is a very complicated condition.  What I am opposed to is tripping over ourselves to accommodate and normalize  a complicated mental health condition on the backs over everyone else.  No different than if I decided today that Im no longer 41... Im now 23 and I want to go to Army flight school.  How is that any different?  Where do we draw the line on feelings?  I can easily prove your sex.  You would have a hard time proving my exact age.  Id also guarantee Im in far better shape than most people in their mid 20s.   Do people need to be harmed, made fun of, etc?  Absolutely not.  Do we cater to the needs of their condition like its a disability?  No.  Telling a 15 year old biological male that he can act like a female if he wants to and nobody will harm or make fun of him is far different than forcing everyone else to accommodate it like its real.  But hes not going to be accommodated as a female.   One of the main foundations behind dealing with mental health issues is to not make yourself responsible for their situation.   When I interact with someone who believes invisible people are telling them to do something, you don't play along unless its for tactical or safety reasons.  Yet with Gender identity issues, which is a mental health issue, we are all being forced to play along.  Again, its not my place to convince that male cadet that he has a mental health issue or to even suggest there is anything wrong with him wanting to identify with being female. But we shouldn't be forced to accommodate it beyond decency and respect.  But no son... you don't get to bunk with the female cadets or use their latrine.  If your gender identity is non-negotiable, then maybe we aren't the place for you.  You are welcome, but we cant,  as a group, be responsible for, or made uncomfortable so you can be comfortable. 
Of course none of this matters ,because the decision has been made far above my pay grade.  Just my thoughts.  And no.. I don't hate anyone. 

[LSThiker]

Here's the article if anyone is interested:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

To be fair, here is the counterpoint to the article that you posted:

http://transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm

[Pace]

Here's the article if anyone is interested:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

To be fair, here is the counterpoint to the article that you posted:

http://transadvocate.com/clinging-to-a-dangerous-past-dr-paul-mchughs-selective-reading-of-transgender-medical-literature_n_13842.htm

Thank you. I look forward to reading this.

[Flying Pig]

Its odd that cosmetic surgery is considered an answer.  In the end, the person is no more the opposite gender than they were before.