GTM2 Training

[TheGooseLover]

So another ES question. I finished GTM3 yesterday, and have 14/19 tasks for GTM2, including all Fam/Prep Tasks, including the commanders approval. Yet, I'm still not in GTM2 Training. Why not? Thanks!

[lordmonar]

You have to be formally entered into training.     

[kwe1009]

No matter how many tasks that you may have signed off, you have to be put into training status by your unit's ES officer to Commander.

[Storm Chaser]

GTM3 is a prerequisite for GTM2. If you just completed GTM3 requirements and the qualification hasn't been approved by your wing, then you can't be a GTM2 trainee until it does. If your GTM3 has been approved and it's showing as Active, you have commander approval for prerequisites, all Fam & Prep tasks, and commander approval for Fam & Prep, then you should be showing as a GTM2 trainee. As long as all the mentioned requirements are completed, there is no "special" way to enter you in trainee status other that the commander or designee approving the commander approval for Fam & Prep. That said, all other requirements must be met first.

As a side note, any GTM2 Fam & Prep task accomplished prior to completing all prerequisites, to include commander approval, is not valid and must be re-accomplished. The same goes for advanced tasks completed prior to being in trainee status. The only exception is for overlapping tasks completed as part of another specialty rating. For more information, see CAPR 60-3, section 2-3.

[lordmonar]

Storm,

While the system assumes you get the Preqs and approval before getting signed off on tasks before doing them.   I don't think there is a need to wait for said approval and preqs before getting signed off on those tasks.

BUT

You cannot operate on a training or real mission as a trainee until said preqs, Fam training and approvals are completed.

This is a little hair splitting.....but from a stand point of training.....if you got a trainer doing map and compass class......I don't see the value added on making GTM3 students re-accomplish those tasks once they have been demonstrated and signed off.

It is a matter of efficiency.

YMMV.

[TheGooseLover]

Thanks all. I'm now GTM2 Qualified and almost GTM1 training!

[Storm Chaser]

Storm,

While the system assumes you get the Preqs and approval before getting signed off on tasks before doing them.   I don't think there is a need to wait for said approval and preqs before getting signed off on those tasks.

BUT

You cannot operate on a training or real mission as a trainee until said preqs, Fam training and approvals are completed.

This is a little hair splitting.....but from a stand point of training.....if you got a trainer doing map and compass class......I don't see the value added on making GTM3 students re-accomplish those tasks once they have been demonstrated and signed off.

It is a matter of efficiency.

YMMV.

Two issues. Just because a prerequisite qual is completed and sent to wing for approval doesn't mean it will be approved. To illustrate this, I had a member last year who completed MS qualification and was just pending wing approval. The MO skills evaluator took him up and signed him off on a couple of MO sorties just to find out wing disapproved the MS prerequisite because the AGH was expired (it was still showing green in the SQTR due to a bug in Ops Quals). Since the AGH test reset the completion of the MS qual, needless to say the two MO sorties and tasks didn't count.

Second, CAPR 60-3 is clear that Fam & Prep cannot be done without the prerequisites completed and approved, advanced tasks cannot be done without Fam & Prep completed and approved, and unqualified members cannot participate in missions unless they're in trainee status, which requires both prerequisites and Fam & Prep completed and approved. This is not splitting hairs; it's black and white. And if you're in a group and wing like mine, which enforces regulations, trying to be "efficient" by bending or breaking the rules is not going to fly. More than efficiency, it's a matter of integrity.

[Garibaldi]

trying to be "efficient" by bending or breaking the rules is not going to fly. More than efficiency, it's a matter of integrity.

I wanna be perfectly clear on something here. As a GTL, I will never, not once ever, tolerate bending or breaking rules in the name of safety, regardless of whether it is a small discrepancy on a van, or a lazy pilot. One of the main reasons I will not fly in a CAP aircraft is that I have seen and been around people who do the pre-flight by memory. The best, and only pilot, I ever flew with to get my MO rating back in the 90s would pre-flight the plane from top to bottom using the checklist, regardless of if it was the first time or fourth time he flew that particular aircraft that day. His reasoning was that anything could have gone wrong between the first time he pre-flighted and when he landed, he didn't trust anyone else to have done it right and he didn't want himself, or his passengers and/or crew to become a statistic. In fact, I outright refused to fly with one pilot who ran an abbreviated memory checklist. I ain't trusting no one with my life in a lil bitty plane what don't follow them kosherized rules. I aim to misbehave, but not at the cost of my life.

[Spam]

Thanks all. I'm now GTM2 Qualified and almost GTM1 training!

I feel that a more pertinent question might be, how did you go from GTM3 approved on SUN8NOV15, to GTM2 approved on THU12NOV15, in four days - which were weekdays by my calendar - with a requirement to demonstrate adequate specialty track performance on two missions - which are normally training missions held on weekends?  If you were not GTM2* (with commanders approval to sortie for GTM2 credit) until Monday, how did you manage to go to two missions in three days, and get approved?


Were I auditing your units records, that would seem to be more eyebrow-raising to me - that your unit/Wing is approving sorties before the member is legally allowed to sortie - than to have had someone sign you off on a mere compass class ahead of a Commanders Approval.


Were I auditing your Wing, I would consider this grounds for a freeze action on all quals, to investigate your Wings review and approval process... and that is just what CAP-USAF is doing.


Good job on the determination to train and advance. Concern here, though, on if you are meeting the actual requirements or just pencil whipping.  This is why I only trust people in the field whom I know to have been signed off by trusted agent SETs, and don't care if people accuse me of being elitist in that regard. I've seen too many people signed off illegally for specialties without having spent a night in the field or on even one mission (just like I've found cadet officers who've never had to do an SDA, and found a C/CMSGT this summer who didn't know his Cadet Oath).

Trust. Its important. Trust, but Verify.


V/R
Spam

[Spam]

Separate issue, Caponly101,

You stated last month (here:http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19760.0 ) that you are a Cadet Senior Airman in your unit.

You need to modify your signature, which currently states that you are your units ES officer. You are not. Cadets may not serve in that duty position, although you could serve as a Cadet ES NCO, hypothetically:

Vocatio Ad Servitium, OK-113
Wright Bros. #31742
ES Officer (SWR-OK-113)
GTM2,MRO Qualified
CUL,MSA,UDF Trainee


I respect you for trying - A for effort. Now, get with the program and do this right, cadet.


V/R,
Spam

[TheGooseLover]

Thanks all. I'm now GTM2 Qualified and almost GTM1 training!

I feel that a more pertinent question might be, how did you go from GTM3 approved on SUN8NOV15, to GTM2 approved on THU12NOV15, in four days - which were weekdays by my calendar - with a requirement to demonstrate adequate specialty track performance on two missions - which are normally training missions held on weekends?  If you were not GTM2* (with commanders approval to sortie for GTM2 credit) until Monday, how did you manage to go to two missions in three days, and get approved?


Were I auditing your units records, that would seem to be more eyebrow-raising to me - that your unit/Wing is approving sorties before the member is legally allowed to sortie - than to have had someone sign you off on a mere compass class ahead of a Commanders Approval.


Were I auditing your Wing, I would consider this grounds for a freeze action on all quals, to investigate your Wings review and approval process... and that is just what CAP-USAF is doing.


Good job on the determination to train and advance. Concern here, though, on if you are meeting the actual requirements or just pencil whipping.  This is why I only trust people in the field whom I know to have been signed off by trusted agent SETs, and don't care if people accuse me of being elitist in that regard. I've seen too many people signed off illegally for specialties without having spent a night in the field or on even one mission (just like I've found cadet officers who've never had to do an SDA, and found a C/CMSGT this summer who didn't know his Cadet Oath).

Trust. Its important. Trust, but Verify.


V/R
Spam

Separate issue, Caponly101,

You stated last month (here:http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19760.0 ) that you are a Cadet Senior Airman in your unit.

You need to modify your signature, which currently states that you are your units ES officer. You are not. Cadets may not serve in that duty position, although you could serve as a Cadet ES NCO, hypothetically:

Vocatio Ad Servitium, OK-113
Wright Bros. #31742
ES Officer (SWR-OK-113)
GTM2,MRO Qualified
CUL,MSA,UDF Trainee


I respect you for trying - A for effort. Now, get with the program and do this right, cadet.


V/R,
Spam

Sir, I attended a SAR missing person mission with 2 sorties, of which I used on GTM2, I also went on a squadron SAREX Saturday that gave me my training Quals

And about the quote. My squadron appointed me to the position of squadron Cadet ES NCO as stated, I need to change it. And I am with the program...

[Spam]

So, perhaps I'm not getting it straight...

The SAREX last Saturday was for GTM3, correct?

Then, this missing person mission was an actual mission singular, not missions plural as in two, and this mission for GTM2 quals was sometime this week between Sunday and yesterday?

[TheGooseLover]

Missing Person - October 3rd-4th - 1 mission, 2 sorties
Squadron SAREX - November 7th - GTM2 Training Mission

[Spam]

Thought it would be something like that.


Both of those missions were creditable towards GTM3, and I would have cheerfully signed you off on a valid GTM3, assuming you'd met the other requirements (congratulations, by the way, you should be proud of that).


If, as you say, you "finished GTM3 yesterday" (and that would be SUN8NOV), neither of them are legally creditable towards GTM2, since you weren't approved as GTM3, much less GTM2*.  You, based only on your statements here, don't appear to me to be legally qualified as GTM2.


1. You can't retroactively claim training credit for missions prior to issuance of approval to train in a specialty, which can only come AFTER the prerequisite specialty is complete.

2. Sortie count means nothing in the terms you're using it. Sortie count is used in determining hours worked creditable towards other ribbons, etc. For training credit, when we say "two missions", that means two different missions, not morning and afternoon on the same SAREX.

V/R, Spam

[TheGooseLover]

But I am, according to my group, wing and squadron. And I study the manual for Ground Team almost daily. I'm pretty sure I know how to do it. For example, although I'm not in GTM1*, I studied for 2 hours last night on Air/Ground signals and vice versa

[Spam]

That's admirable that you study. I don't want to minimize the effort you've putting in, NOR do I want you to quit. I just want you to conform to the real system, and do it correctly, to the Task, Condition, and Standard.

"Desire" and "Effort" are not qualifying standards:  if I study really hard how to be a doctor, should I be treated as one and hired as one, even if I haven't gone to med school or done a residency (practical training/demonstration)?



According to what you've said, if those are the only two actual or training missions you've been to, you certainly are NOT qualified as GTM2, and of your Squadron, Group, and Oklahoma Wing have approved your GTM2 rating, somethings rotten in the system, given again that your timeline and claims are verifiable.

Once again, good effort and I don't want you to give up, but... no. Not qualified, in my book. You need to have a serious talk with your unit commander on playing by the actual regulations, if this is all true.

Anyone else on this? Am I completely off base?


V/R,
Spam

[TheGooseLover]

I've done 2 prior mission exercises and I have a wing SAREX in 2 weeks that I should be either the MRO or CUL Trainee For.

[Storm Chaser]

In all fairness, the issue doesn't seem to be with this cadet, but with his organization's leadership.

[TheSkyHornet]

In all fairness, the issue doesn't seem to be with this cadet, but with his organization's leadership.

Now where have we heard that before...?   

It's likely that if most squadrons' leaders would know the regs themselves and be able to implement adequate training programs, you wouldn't see some of the questions you see on here.

[Garibaldi]

I sense a disturbance in the force, myself. Not to take anything away from this cadet, but I have to wonder about some things. We held an FTX t with another unit to sign off on some much needed top-half requirements for them. Come to find out there was a cadet who had all his sign offs, to include commander's auth, AND 2 missions, on the same day. Heads were scratched, the CC of the unit shrugged, I shrugged, Spam shrugged, laughed and said "No." Come to find out that this kid wasn't being fraudulent, but the former CC had pencil-whipped this kid through for some reason. We sat him down and 'splained things to him, and got him signed off on everything LEGALLY the following training FTX weekend. No biggee, the kid was agreeable, the current CC was agreeable, wanted to do things the right way. Spam could tell it better than I, honestly.

I really feel a better job should be done at the Wing level to standardize the sign off procedures. I know, it's in writing that x has to be done before y, and z can't be done prior to y, but people have their own interpretation. In fact, I've been in 2 wings and 3 squadrons in the last 4 years (moving around, and so on), and you can get 12 interpretations on how to teach and sign off the tasks. GAWG does it different than ARWG, who does it different than WIWG, and so on. CAWG is a different animal altogether from what I'm understanding. It's not a standard practice across the board anymore, which is why this particular situation raises alarm bells. I'm guilty of it myself, "that's the way I've always done it", but as I've heard in a saying somewhere, "That's great sonny, but this here's the Fleet."

Trust, but verify.