Cadet staff positions - does anyone in charge care?

[Spam]

There is always the paperwork/eservices action, and then there is day to day execution.

I can think of some options out of several bad choices:

- Additional collateral duty. Are there any cadet officers in neighboring units whom you could, after consultation, assign via a Form 2a as additional duty (but with very minimal tasking) in order to both satisfy the order and to meet the intent of the program/regs? Perhaps a growth experience for a unit with several cadet officers, one or two of whom might not have gotten a shot at cadet command, and an opportunity to help y'all out? This is the best I could think of, out of several less than perfect options.

- Assign but do the job for him/her.  If the line officers of the unit understand the principles behind the program (i.e. focused Phase 2 NCO training on direct leadership, and leave command billets to Phases 3-4) then the unit commander and staff can complete an assignment action in eservices for Wing to audit, and carry on executing the program without actually vesting a cadet with the powers and duties of the office - YET - with the defensible position that they are the CP line officers executing the training, and are maturing the staff IAW the program.

- Assign a place holder. Are there any cadet officers on the books but inactive (at college?) you could assign on the books?


V/R,
Spam

PS, personally, were I in the spot of your local CC, I would try working around before DIRECTLY (repeat directly) tilting at the Region windmill over this issue. Going to a Region/CC to call out a Wing/CC should be a silver bullet to fire in cases of fiscal or safety irregularities, I think.  Yet, I've been in a unit where the Group/CC tried to shutter the unit using all sorts of flimsy excuses, so I think we've seen disagreements turn into personal vendettas - not a good fire to stoke and inflame, if only for the cadets' sake.

PPS, I can understand your frustration, neummy, but COL Lee is the wrong target to take it out on. He and his team are the staff officers who crafted the policies for implementation, and there is a world of difference between line (Command) and staff assignments.  You can't take a shot at a staff officer for not having an oversight and correction function he's not empowered with (any more, at least, in COL Lee's case). DCPs and Region CP officers inspect and report, though... hint, hint.

[foo]

That would be a serious battle to wage and I don't think it would be worth the trouble it would cause for us. I was hoping to raise awareness here and maybe get National to start promoting the importance of this aspect of the program down the line, but judging by Col Lee's response I doubt anyone at the top sees it as an issue (thus the answer to the question in the subject of this thread).

if it not worth your effort to follow up on what you think is wrong........why should any one else?

Not wanting to slam you too hard....you are right it is frustrating to be micromanaged and forced to do something you don't think is right.   But if you don't have the fortitude to stand up for what you think is right.......why should expect anyone else to?

I'm not "expecting anyone else to." Try re-reading the post you quoted to see what my intentions are here. I'm in no position of authority to formally do anything about it, and seeing how things work, I'm not sure I ever want to be.

[LSThiker]

That would be a serious battle to wage and I don't think it would be worth the trouble it would cause for us. I was hoping to raise awareness here and maybe get National to start promoting the importance of this aspect of the program down the line, but judging by Col Lee's response I doubt anyone at the top sees it as an issue (thus the answer to the question in the subject of this thread).

if it not worth your effort to follow up on what you think is wrong........why should any one else?

Not wanting to slam you too hard....you are right it is frustrating to be micromanaged and forced to do something you don't think is right.   But if you don't have the fortitude to stand up for what you think is right.......why should expect anyone else to?

I'm not "expecting anyone else to." Try re-reading the post you quoted to see what my intentions are here. I'm in no position of authority to formally do anything about it, and seeing how things work, I'm not sure I ever want to be.

Yes you are expecting someone else to do it.  You want National to "newly" promote the guidance they already have in order to fix your situation.  Thereby, you are indirectly wanting national to fight your battle.  By the way, National already promotes that guidance as they wrote it in the publications.  TLC is the course that was designed to fix these types of issues. 

I do not agree with what your wing commander has done, if it is as you describe.  Sure it is micromanaging.  Nevertheless, it is his/her choice as the regulation states "should".  While you may feel "should" is disingenuous, it is the regulation.  Thereby it is not a requirement.   

As stated by others, talk with the Wing Director of Cadet Programs.  See if the DCP understands the reason the behind the Wing Commander's direction.  If not, perhaps the DCP can talk with the Wing Commander about it.  If no suitable answer is given, then talk with the Region DCP.

As you state, you are not in a leadership position (i.e. Commander or CDC).  Well, what does your squadron commander say?  If he/she is not willing to challenge this or support you, then that is that.  Accept the order and drive on.  Until you take a leadership position, there will not be much you can do about it.   

No one on CAPTalk can do anything about it.  As Ned has stated, this situation is really beyond the scope of his position, nor is it anything directly against the regulation.

[TheSkyHornet]

Whether they agree or not, National is above Wing. You may want to report this to Region if this is a persistent problem. There is a process for such issues.

Negative. The chain of command is clear. This is a squadron commander's issue. If the squadron commander can't resolve this with the group or wing commander, then it's up to him whether to go to the region commander or not. This is not the member's fight.

I made that point clear further down in the response.

I would have personally said that I would not be appointing someone to the role of Cadet Commander if I didn't have someone capable of filling that position based on NHQ's recommendations. Had I gotten any further negativity in the response, I would take it a step higher. But that's the commander's responsibility, not mine or yours as it sounds.

Hence why I asked what his position in the squadron is.

I left Group out of it since this was a Wing-made decision. I assumed that there was no Group in the equation, as there isn't required to be one. If there is a Group, it should definitely be taken to Group as the immediate next-higher.

They didn't say "not worth the effort," they said "not worth the trouble it would cause for us."

Big difference.

Not to my eyes.   Again if you don't have the fortitude to stand up for what is right (and pay what ever price it takes) then why should you expect anyone to?

Big believer in this concept. Anyone who has the ability to do what's right has the responsibility to do what's right.

Now, in saying that, this may not be a "right and wrong" subject. It really depends on the circumstances of the issue and a lot more details need to be provided. From the sounds of the complaint, Wing elected to employ a cadet well-below the NHQ-recommended grade into a high-grade duty position. That does seem to be an inappropriate maneuver.

There is always the paperwork/eservices action, and then there is day to day execution.

I can think of some options out of several bad choices:

- Additional collateral duty. Are there any cadet officers in neighboring units whom you could, after consultation, assign via a Form 2a as additional duty (but with very minimal tasking) in order to both satisfy the order and to meet the intent of the program/regs? Perhaps a growth experience for a unit with several cadet officers, one or two of whom might not have gotten a shot at cadet command, and an opportunity to help y'all out? This is the best I could think of, out of several less than perfect options.

- Assign but do the job for him/her.  If the line officers of the unit understand the principles behind the program (i.e. focused Phase 2 NCO training on direct leadership, and leave command billets to Phases 3-4) then the unit commander and staff can complete an assignment action in eservices for Wing to audit, and carry on executing the program without actually vesting a cadet with the powers and duties of the office - YET - with the defensible position that they are the CP line officers executing the training, and are maturing the staff IAW the program.

- Assign a place holder. Are there any cadet officers on the books but inactive (at college?) you could assign on the books?


V/R,
Spam

PS, personally, were I in the spot of your local CC, I would try working around before DIRECTLY (repeat directly) tilting at the Region windmill over this issue. Going to a Region/CC to call out a Wing/CC should be a silver bullet to fire in cases of fiscal or safety irregularities, I think.  Yet, I've been in a unit where the Group/CC tried to shutter the unit using all sorts of flimsy excuses, so I think we've seen disagreements turn into personal vendettas - not a good fire to stoke and inflame, if only for the cadets' sake.

PPS, I can understand your frustration, neummy, but COL Lee is the wrong target to take it out on. He and his team are the staff officers who crafted the policies for implementation, and there is a world of difference between line (Command) and staff assignments.  You can't take a shot at a staff officer for not having an oversight and correction function he's not empowered with (any more, at least, in COL Lee's case). DCPs and Region CP officers inspect and report, though... hint, hint.

As always, very much I agree with in Spam's post.

I got handed a cadet with a fairly low rank being placed into a high-level duty position. It was a completely inappropriate move and why nobody spoke up more, I don't know. This cadet was told in-person that we would not hold them to the standards of that duty position because they aren't at the appropriate grade to be holding it (the first indicator not to fill it). I think that's one of the worst things to tell someone---"You'll be in that role, but not responsible for it."

In my case, I had no say in the matter. This was the deck I got handed. So, to Spam's point, I do the extra work while trying to build up that NCO to be in an officer's duty position. I assign smaller-scale projects to build up the cadet program and get people throughout the cadet chain of command to follow certain SOPs that can carry over to whenever the next person is assigned (or if we decide not to fill that role but a lower-level position). The continuity will still be there. I don't have to judge this cadet based on the expectations for this duty position, but I can help them progress and judge them based on the assignments I give that I think are within their level of accomplishment. When time comes to sit down and have a review board, I'm going to address where they "should" have been at in the program to be in that position, compare it to what they did as a lesser-ranking, lesser-qualified person, and then match that to what my actual expectations were of someone of their level of experience completing the assignments I put out in support of that duty position.