Does position trump grade?

[mikeylikey]

We have taken symbols that are used in the military to determine authority and turned them into merit badges - no wonder the military is confused by us.

To a certain degree, so has The Real Military (tm)....otherwise, why do they need special badges (beyond grade insignia) to identify commanders?

That is a good question.  I am also curious why the AF has done that.  I would imagine it was a throw back to the Army days when officers wore branch insignia.  It helps to show what a particular person does.  There was a proposal in the late 1980's to return "branch insignia" to Officers uniforms for the AF.  I think that somehow turned into the specialty badges.  If anyone has more depth on that, I would be interested!

[JC004]

Didn't you tell me the other day that you don't like the red epaulets?!

Did he say "red" epaulets, or "maroon"?

We were talking about the khaki uniform at the time, so red.  Of course, we have folks who still wear it since the uniforms are so freaking confusing:

Is that guy on the left doing a test wear of CAP's new dress white corporate combo?

Always causing problems...even in TNWG.  SHHH.

[Hawk200]

...I am also curious why the AF has done that.  I would imagine it was a throw back to the Army days when officers wore branch insignia. 

I would seriously doubt that. What kind of branch insignia would say "unit commander"? In the Army, commanders wear extremely varying branch insignias. A commander of a flying unit would wear Aviation branch, in a field artillery unit it would be crossed cannons, for Infantry it's crossed rifles. A specific branch insignia would not directly correspond to command.

There was a proposal in the late 1980's to return "branch insignia" to Officers uniforms for the AF.  I think that somehow turned into the specialty badges.

Also doubtful. With the specialty badges indicating career field in the Air Force, those only came out in the early nineties. Prior to that, there were only a few badges related to career field. They also show a persons proficiency. A lot of personnel in the Air Force wanted to show that on their uniforms as well.

[ZigZag911]

My point is the "command" specialty badge -- or perhaps more correctly,  badge of office.....it seems that the services (USAF & USN, not sure about the others( find it necessary to use an insignia other than grade to identify the commanding officer.

Once upon a time, if I read my history correctly, there would be one and only one four stripe captain (O-6) on a capital ship, such as an aircraft carrier during WWII (I'm not counting admiral's staff officers here, just those assigned to the vessel).

From what I've seen, it is not unusual for the CO, XO, and air wing CO on an aircraft carrier to all be O-6 grade.

While they would not describe it thus, it seems that practically speaking, The Real Military (tm) uses grade as a form of recognition, as well as designating the individual's level of responsibility.

[ddelaney103]

But you have to remember neither the Leadership Tabs (for the Army) or the Commander/Past Commander badge (for the Navy and Air Force) gives the wearer any added authority.  Those are both attempts to make command positions more desirable.  Command is a thankless job and often not required for promotion, so they decided to add bling as an enticement.  However, an E-6 or O-4 with a Leadership Tab doesn't outrank another E-6 or O-4 because of the tab.

[ZigZag911]

But you have to remember neither the Leadership Tabs (for the Army) or the Commander/Past Commander badge (for the Navy and Air Force) gives the wearer any added authority.  Those are both attempts to make command positions more desirable.  Command is a thankless job and often not required for promotion, so they decided to add bling as an enticement.  However, an E-6 or O-4 with a Leadership Tab doesn't outrank another E-6 or O-4 because of the tab.

I understand that, and I agree from personal experience as a group commander that commanders at all levels are over-burdened and underappreciated.

Your remark about bling-enticement is precisely what I've been trying to say...even in RM (tm) today one needs separate insignia, other than grade insignia,
to identify who is in command....it's not just a CAp phenomenon (though i will grant it is far worse in CAP, where 1 Lts regularly command Lt Cols!)

[lordmonar]

But you have to remember neither the Leadership Tabs (for the Army) or the Commander/Past Commander badge (for the Navy and Air Force) gives the wearer any added authority.  Those are both attempts to make command positions more desirable.  Command is a thankless job and often not required for promotion, so they decided to add bling as an enticement.  However, an E-6 or O-4 with a Leadership Tab doesn't outrank another E-6 or O-4 because of the tab.

As I understand it in the army they do....that was the purpose of the tab.  It is used to identify those who have the authority to command in combat.  Ergo if the Lt buys it and you got an E-5 with the tab and an E-6 without...the E-5 rules.....in combat.

A good example of this is the SPEC-4 and the Corporal E-4.  One is an NCO and the other is not.  Back in the day when they had Spec-5 and SPEC-6...the E-4 Corporal still out ranked the SPEC-6 in the field.

Granted that caused a lot of confusion so the army dropped the SPEC-5 and SPEC-6 but kept the SPEC-4.

The USAF had a similar problem with the E-4 SrA and E-4 Sgt.

[Dragoon]

But you have to remember neither the Leadership Tabs (for the Army) or the Commander/Past Commander badge (for the Navy and Air Force) gives the wearer any added authority.  Those are both attempts to make command positions more desirable.  Command is a thankless job and often not required for promotion, so they decided to add bling as an enticement.  However, an E-6 or O-4 with a Leadership Tab doesn't outrank another E-6 or O-4 because of the tab.

As I understand it in the army they do....that was the purpose of the tab.  It is used to identify those who have the authority to command in combat.  Ergo if the Lt buys it and you got an E-5 with the tab and an E-6 without...the E-5 rules.....in combat.

A good example of this is the SPEC-4 and the Corporal E-4.  One is an NCO and the other is not.  Back in the day when they had Spec-5 and SPEC-6...the E-4 Corporal still out ranked the SPEC-6 in the field.

Granted that caused a lot of confusion so the army dropped the SPEC-5 and SPEC-6 but kept the SPEC-4.

The USAF had a similar problem with the E-4 SrA and E-4 Sgt.

The green tab identifies that someone is currently in a leadership position.  It doesn't give any additional authority - it just makes it clear who is a leader and who is isn't.  It certainly doesn't give any authority over folks not assigned to you.

In a chaotic situation like a plane crash, you had an two guys from different units, an E-5 green tabber and an E-6 without....the E-6 is in charge.  Rank still matters.

The tab got it's start back in, I think WWII.  The rumor was that it was too hard to find the actual commanders in and among all the staff officers in HQ.

Of course, today, there aren't epaulets on the ACU to rap the tab around, so it isn't much identification value in a combat situation.  Sure looks nice on the greens, though.  But the new blue service uniform doesn't have epaulets either..

[Dragoon]

But you have to remember neither the Leadership Tabs (for the Army) or the Commander/Past Commander badge (for the Navy and Air Force) gives the wearer any added authority.  Those are both attempts to make command positions more desirable.  Command is a thankless job and often not required for promotion, so they decided to add bling as an enticement.  However, an E-6 or O-4 with a Leadership Tab doesn't outrank another E-6 or O-4 because of the tab.

I understand that, and I agree from personal experience as a group commander that commanders at all levels are over-burdened and underappreciated.

Your remark about bling-enticement is precisely what I've been trying to say...even in RM (tm) today one needs separate insignia, other than grade insignia,
to identify who is in command....it's not just a CAp phenomenon (though i will grant it is far worse in CAP, where 1 Lts regularly command Lt Cols!)

Yup, you'll always need some special insignia to designate commanders.

But the military also has grade insignia to designate generic authority - the authority you have over all members of the organization, especially in chaotic situations where it is unclear who should be the commander.

CAP gets away with misusing grade because we seldom have the kind of chaos one finds on the battlefield.  But we also lose the benefit of a Lt Col knowing that if he sees something screwed up, regardless of who the commander is, he has the responsibility to go fix it and the authority to do so.

In CAP, that Lt Col has neither.  It's not his problem, and even if it was, they don't have to listen to him.

[mikeylikey]

But you have to remember neither the Leadership Tabs (for the Army) or the Commander/Past Commander badge (for the Navy and Air Force) gives the wearer any added authority.  Those are both attempts to make command positions more desirable.  Command is a thankless job and often not required for promotion, so they decided to add bling as an enticement.  However, an E-6 or O-4 with a Leadership Tab doesn't outrank another E-6 or O-4 because of the tab.

As I understand it in the army they do....that was the purpose of the tab.  It is used to identify those who have the authority to command in combat.  Ergo if the Lt buys it and you got an E-5 with the tab and an E-6 without...the E-5 rules.....in combat.

A good example of this is the SPEC-4 and the Corporal E-4.  One is an NCO and the other is not.  Back in the day when they had Spec-5 and SPEC-6...the E-4 Corporal still out ranked the SPEC-6 in the field.

Granted that caused a lot of confusion so the army dropped the SPEC-5 and SPEC-6 but kept the SPEC-4.

The USAF had a similar problem with the E-4 SrA and E-4 Sgt.

The green tab identifies that someone is currently in a leadership position.  It doesn't give any additional authority - it just makes it clear who is a leader and who is isn't.  It certainly doesn't give any authority over folks not assigned to you.

In a chaotic situation like a plane crash, you had an two guys from different units, an E-5 green tabber and an E-6 without....the E-6 is in charge.  Rank still matters.

The tab got it's start back in, I think WWII.  The rumor was that it was too hard to find the actual commanders in and among all the staff officers in HQ.

Of course, today, there aren't epaulets on the ACU to rap the tab around, so it isn't much identification value in a combat situation.  Sure looks nice on the greens, though.  But the new blue service uniform doesn't have epaulets either..

In the Army, the branch insignia was the command identifier is chaotic situations.  The 2LT infantry guy has all right and authority to give out commands to a Colonel if both found themsleves mixed in with an infantry Platoon and the Colonel was say a DOCTOR.  That is what is missing on the ACU's and the reason is to make the enlisted guys feel better about themsleves, and that is a shame!

[Dragoon]

In the Army, the branch insignia was the command identifier is chaotic situations.  The 2LT infantry guy has all right and authority to give out commands to a Colonel if both found themsleves mixed in with an infantry Platoon and the Colonel was say a DOCTOR.  That is what is missing on the ACU's and the reason is to make the enlisted guys feel better about themsleves, and that is a shame!

Umm...no.  That's not the case (speaking from a couple of decades of doing this for a living).  That ain't in the regs.

Doctors, Chaplains and Lawyers are of course, special cases.  Their rank is primarily about pay.

But if a couple of Infantry Lts and a Quartermaster Captain find themselves together behind enemy lines, the captain is in charge.  Of course, we hope he'd take some advice from the Lts...

[ddelaney103]

In the Army, the branch insignia was the command identifier is chaotic situations.  The 2LT infantry guy has all right and authority to give out commands to a Colonel if both found themsleves mixed in with an infantry Platoon and the Colonel was say a DOCTOR.  That is what is missing on the ACU's and the reason is to make the enlisted guys feel better about themsleves, and that is a shame!

Wait, you've lost me.

Enlisted don't wear branch insignia on BDU's - what exactly is making them feel better about themselves?

[ddelaney103]

But you have to remember neither the Leadership Tabs (for the Army) or the Commander/Past Commander badge (for the Navy and Air Force) gives the wearer any added authority.  Those are both attempts to make command positions more desirable.  Command is a thankless job and often not required for promotion, so they decided to add bling as an enticement.  However, an E-6 or O-4 with a Leadership Tab doesn't outrank another E-6 or O-4 because of the tab.

As I understand it in the army they do....that was the purpose of the tab.  It is used to identify those who have the authority to command in combat.  Ergo if the Lt buys it and you got an E-5 with the tab and an E-6 without...the E-5 rules.....in combat.

A good example of this is the SPEC-4 and the Corporal E-4.  One is an NCO and the other is not.  Back in the day when they had Spec-5 and SPEC-6...the E-4 Corporal still out ranked the SPEC-6 in the field.

Granted that caused a lot of confusion so the army dropped the SPEC-5 and SPEC-6 but kept the SPEC-4.

The USAF had a similar problem with the E-4 SrA and E-4 Sgt.

The green tab identifies that someone is currently in a leadership position.  It doesn't give any additional authority - it just makes it clear who is a leader and who is isn't.  It certainly doesn't give any authority over folks not assigned to you.

In a chaotic situation like a plane crash, you had an two guys from different units, an E-5 green tabber and an E-6 without....the E-6 is in charge.  Rank still matters.

The tab got it's start back in, I think WWII.  The rumor was that it was too hard to find the actual commanders in and among all the staff officers in HQ.

Of course, today, there aren't epaulets on the ACU to rap the tab around, so it isn't much identification value in a combat situation.  Sure looks nice on the greens, though.  But the new blue service uniform doesn't have epaulets either..

I remember seeing (I don't remember if it was in real life or for sale) grade insignia for ACU's embroidered on leadership tab green instead of ACU material - but I don't think it was official.

[Hawk200]

I remember seeing (I don't remember if it was in real life or for sale) grade insignia for ACU's embroidered on leadership tab green instead of ACU material - but I don't think it was official.

It's official. Before there were cloth rank insignia loops for the Gore-Tex, combat leaders (personnel wearing the green tab) wore the green loop on the Gore-Tex with rank insignia pinned through it. Metal insignia was deemed a FOD hazard, so the rank insignia was soon embroidered on the green loops to still designate the authorized positions.

The plain insignia is worn on the Class A uniform, just wrapped around the epaulets.

[ddelaney103]

I remember seeing (I don't remember if it was in real life or for sale) grade insignia for ACU's embroidered on leadership tab green instead of ACU material - but I don't think it was official.

It's official. Before there were cloth rank insignia loops for the Gore-Tex, combat leaders (personnel wearing the green tab) wore the green loop on the Gore-Tex with rank insignia pinned through it. Metal insignia was deemed a FOD hazard, so the rank insignia was soon embroidered on the green loops to still designate the authorized positions.

The plain insignia is worn on the Class A uniform, just wrapped around the epaulets.

You misunderstand - I know Leadership Tabs are legal, it was the particular useage.

Someone was taking and embroidering grade insignia on "Leadership Tab green" fabric, then sewing it onto hook and loop.  They would then wear this on the ACU instead of the standard grade insignia embroidered onto ACU fabric and sewn on hook and loop.

It's kind of like the sewing unit patches onto a piece of ACU fabric the size of the sleeve hook and loop and then putting hook and loop on the fabric.  You then slap it on the sleeve and it looks like you've sewn the patch directly onto the sleeve.  It's done, but not exactly legal.

[SAR-EMT1]

In the Army, the branch insignia was the command identifier is chaotic situations.  The 2LT infantry guy has all right and authority to give out commands to a Colonel if both found themsleves mixed in with an infantry Platoon and the Colonel was say a DOCTOR.  That is what is missing on the ACU's and the reason is to make the enlisted guys feel better about themsleves, and that is a shame!

Wait, you've lost me.

Enlisted don't wear branch insignia on BDU's - what exactly is making them feel better about themselves?

They were I assume upset that Officers got Branch Bling. Now its disappeared so the enlisted folks dont get depressed about not having it.

[ColonelJack]

Once upon a time, if I read my history correctly, there would be one and only one four stripe captain (O-6) on a capital ship, such as an aircraft carrier during WWII (I'm not counting admiral's staff officers here, just those assigned to the vessel).

From what I've seen, it is not unusual for the CO, XO, and air wing CO on an aircraft carrier to all be O-6 grade.

Which makes me wonder ... does the USN/USCG still observe the old saw that a four-striper aboard a ship he/she doesn't have command in is called "commodore"?  Since, after all, the title "captain" belongs to one person only, regardless of rank?

Or did they do away with that?

Jack

[jimmydeanno]

It is still used to this day...just verified with my good Navy buddy.

[Hawk200]

You misunderstand - I know Leadership Tabs are legal, it was the particular useage.

Someone was taking and embroidering grade insignia on "Leadership Tab green" fabric, then sewing it onto hook and loop.  They would then wear this on the ACU instead of the standard grade insignia embroidered onto ACU fabric and sewn on hook and loop.

My apologies, I didn't realize what you were referencing. That concept isn't a legal one that I know of, and prior to your post I'd never heard or seen anything of that kind. Not to say that it isn't done, it wouldn't surprise me. But the insignia you describe does not comply with the Army's uniform regulation. I have seen a few wierd, non-compliant items sold in Mil Clothing before, and I would hope that the average soldier would be bright enough not to try to wear it.

[ZigZag911]

Which makes me wonder ... does the USN/USCG still observe the old saw that a four-striper aboard a ship he/she doesn't have command in is called "commodore"?  Since, after all, the title "captain" belongs to one person only, regardless of rank?

Or did they do away with that?

Jack

Probably explains why one will hear juniors addressing other O-6s by functional titles such as "XO" or "Skipper" for the air wing CO....hardly could call them 'commodore' which would be giving them a courtesy title higher than the Captain!