Does position trump grade?

[AlphaSigOU]

Once upon a time, if I read my history correctly, there would be one and only one four stripe captain (O-6) on a capital ship, such as an aircraft carrier during WWII (I'm not counting admiral's staff officers here, just those assigned to the vessel).

From what I've seen, it is not unusual for the CO, XO, and air wing CO on an aircraft carrier to all be O-6 grade.

Which makes me wonder ... does the USN/USCG still observe the old saw that a four-striper aboard a ship he/she doesn't have command in is called "commodore"?  Since, after all, the title "captain" belongs to one person only, regardless of rank?

Or did they do away with that?

I remember reading that in the olden days that if a Marine, Army or Air Force captain was invited to dine in - or was a member of - the ship's wardroom he automatically got a 'wardroom promotion' to Major, as there is only one Captain aboard a ship. Probably a military urban legend.

[davedove]

Once upon a time, if I read my history correctly, there would be one and only one four stripe captain (O-6) on a capital ship, such as an aircraft carrier during WWII (I'm not counting admiral's staff officers here, just those assigned to the vessel).

From what I've seen, it is not unusual for the CO, XO, and air wing CO on an aircraft carrier to all be O-6 grade.

Which makes me wonder ... does the USN/USCG still observe the old saw that a four-striper aboard a ship he/she doesn't have command in is called "commodore"?  Since, after all, the title "captain" belongs to one person only, regardless of rank?

Or did they do away with that?

I remember reading that in the olden days that if a Marine, Army or Air Force captain was invited to dine in - or was a member of - the ship's wardroom he automatically got a 'wardroom promotion' to Major, as there is only one Captain aboard a ship. Probably a military urban legend.

That's probably part of it.  The big reason though, is that a Captain in the Navy is a very different rank than a Captain in the other services, O-6 vs. O-3.  The other grades all have different names, so there is no confusion, except for Lieutenant, but the rank are close enough there so as to limit confusion.  And, they didn't want to call the O-3 Captains "Lieutenant" because that would sound like a drop in grade to them, so they get to be Majors while on board.

[SAR-EMT1]

Once upon a time, if I read my history correctly, there would be one and only one four stripe captain (O-6) on a capital ship, such as an aircraft carrier during WWII (I'm not counting admiral's staff officers here, just those assigned to the vessel).

From what I've seen, it is not unusual for the CO, XO, and air wing CO on an aircraft carrier to all be O-6 grade.

Which makes me wonder ... does the USN/USCG still observe the old saw that a four-striper aboard a ship he/she doesn't have command in is called "commodore"?  Since, after all, the title "captain" belongs to one person only, regardless of rank?

Or did they do away with that?

Jack

I was under the impression that "Commodore" was the old term for "Rear Admiral, Lower Half "
  It was also used exensively by Escort Group Commanders during the Battle of the Altantic.

[jimmydeanno]

Which makes me wonder ... does the USN/USCG still observe the old saw that a four-striper aboard a ship he/she doesn't have command in is called "commodore"?  Since, after all, the title "captain" belongs to one person only, regardless of rank?

Or did they do away with that?

Jack

The Navy no longer maintains a rank of Commodore but the term has survived as a title. Modern-day Commodores are senior Captains in command of Destroyer/Cruiser/Amphibious Squadrons, Coastal Warfare Groups, Submarine Squadrons, and Aircraft Wings. Such officers are referred to, both verbally and in correspondence, as "Commodore," but wear the rank insignia of a Captain. An officer with the rank of Captain in the United States Navy, who is a passenger aboard a ship but not commanding it, may also be addressed by the title "Commodore" to avoid confusion with the ship's commander who is the only one addressed by the title "Captain."

For the post above, this is a good read on the development of the 'commodore.'

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Commodore_%28USN%29

[ZigZag911]

I remember reading that in the olden days that if a Marine, Army or Air Force captain was invited to dine in - or was a member of - the ship's wardroom he automatically got a 'wardroom promotion' to Major, as there is only one Captain aboard a ship. Probably a military urban legend.

I don't think it's mere urban legend....I first read that as a teenager in Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein -- an Annapolis grad (early 1930s, I think) who served AD for several years before a medical condition forced him out....he was extremely careful with the accuracy of his militaria.

[Zach]

Ya know... the answer is actually no.

It never does.

Grade/Rank - trumps all - at all times - in every context.

When I was in the AF, anytime there was a problem - I got the phone.  Fun stuff.

Nothing like sitting there with my two stripes, talking to this very pissed off guy with two stars... it actually would get kind of annoying to keep repeating, "No Sir, I will not do that." ....

Granted it was only occasionally that I got that specific privilage of telling a General no... on a day to day basis it was normally only a Full Bird...

.. and at the end of it all.. the next day - when I would arrive at work - I would have another LOR waiting for me to sign. 

"Great job yesterday Zach..... thats why we only let you handle those situations.  Oh.. sign here please.. Keep up the great work, thanks."

The Air Force could be so confusing at times

.. anyway - none of that invalidates what I said at first.

If the President of the United States called me, and gave me the same request... he would have received the same answer... "No Sir, I will not do that."

The reason is simple - I was not the one saying no to the General, it was my voice yes - but it was actually the President through the NSA through my commander through my immediate supervisors that was saying no the General - I was just the tool.  Even if it was the President - it would have been him saying no to himself.

The President would have to have basically killed the way the entire Military works for him to be able to rescind the standing orders that existed through the authority... on down the chain - of a Previous Commander in Chief (if not himself)

So no - position never trumps grade ... because any authority that you have in that position comes from a higher grade than you are ever going to deal with more likely. 


.... the General... well the most high ranking officers I said no to was related to security things, them wanting something - more often than not thinking for whatever reason think that because of their rank - I would just let them in the SCIF... guess I never liked Kansas enough to do that

The general... and a few others... were involved in Bosnia during the early early/mid 90s.... and would be in Italy or god knows where else... but everything ran out of where I worked - in Germany. 

There system would go down - which the absolutely had to have up... lives counted on it - and every second it was down was not a good thing.  Problem was - it was realtime information that was used by a couple other places that also had lives tied to knowing what the info was.  They would go down... the General would call and ask me to reboot - being the US Military - we are talking computer systems left over from the Roman Empire - and as soon as we knew there was a problem - we found it, isolated - and pretty much on the spot normally had contractors already on their way to the Airport in the US to get their asses to Germany and get what was broken fixed... but rebooting the system was not an option cause only God had a clue if it would actually come back up .... and my job in life at that point was to make sure that system never went down....

... and again - I could say no because the NSA and the Air Force had standing orders from above stipulating that I say no - it was never my call - I was just the tool. 

[DeputyDog]

Ya know... the answer is actually no.

It never does.

Grade/Rank - trumps all - at all times - in every context.

Are you talking about CAP?

[gallagheria]

Zach, you understand you just contradicted yourself?

Position always trumps grade. Trust me, federal law even stipulates that position trumps grade. Take the chairman of the joints chiefs of staff, a four-star general. He may not have been a four-star general as long as someone else, but his position places him above any other officer in the military. 10 USC 152(c).

LTC Bubba Joe cannot walk up to MAJ Billy Bob and tell him what to do with his unit unless LTC Bubba Joe is in MAJ Billy Bob's chain of command. Plain and simple. See AR 600-20 (Army Command Policy):

Command is exercised by virtue of office and the special assignment of members of the United States Armed Forces holding military grade who are eligible to exercise command. A commander is, therefore, a commissioned or warrant officer who, by virtue of grade and assignment, exercises primary command authority over a military organization or prescribed territorial area that under pertinent official directives is recognized as a "command."

[Major Carrales]

The article on the term  "commodore" is right on.  The title used by most persons in Kinsgville, Texas to refer to the Commander of NAS Kingsville is Commodore.

[mikeylikey]

Zach, you understand you just contradicted yourself?

Position always trumps grade. Trust me, federal law even stipulates that position trumps grade. Take the chairman of the joints chiefs of staff, a four-star general. He may not have been a four-star general as long as someone else, but his position places him above any other officer in the military. 10 USC 152(c).

LTC Bubba Joe cannot walk up to MAJ Billy Bob and tell him what to do with his unit unless LTC Bubba Joe is in MAJ Billy Bob's chain of command. Plain and simple. See AR 600-20 (Army Command Policy):

Command is exercised by virtue of office and the special assignment of members of the United States Armed Forces holding military grade who are eligible to exercise command. A commander is, therefore, a commissioned or warrant officer who, by virtue of grade and assignment, exercises primary command authority over a military organization or prescribed territorial area that under pertinent official directives is recognized as a "command."

True all that!  That is why DOD civilians may be in the Command structure. 

[Dragoon]

Zach, you understand you just contradicted yourself?

Position always trumps grade. Trust me, federal law even stipulates that position trumps grade. Take the chairman of the joints chiefs of staff, a four-star general. He may not have been a four-star general as long as someone else, but his position places him above any other officer in the military. 10 USC 152(c).

LTC Bubba Joe cannot walk up to MAJ Billy Bob and tell him what to do with his unit unless LTC Bubba Joe is in MAJ Billy Bob's chain of command. Plain and simple. See AR 600-20 (Army Command Policy):

Command is exercised by virtue of office and the special assignment of members of the United States Armed Forces holding military grade who are eligible to exercise command. A commander is, therefore, a commissioned or warrant officer who, by virtue of grade and assignment, exercises primary command authority over a military organization or prescribed territorial area that under pertinent official directives is recognized as a "command."

It is interesting there that it says the commander exercises his authority "be virtue of grade and assignement" not just by virtue of assignment.

Basically, there are a set of rules to make sure that, with a few exceptions, the ranking guy gets the command job, therefore  avoiding the whole issue. 

But reading further in the reg, you find out how rank works (at least in the Army) in a very different way than in CAP.

If a commander of an Army element, other than a commander of a headquarters and headquarters element, dies,
becomes disabled, retires, is reassigned, or is temporarily absent, the senior regularly assigned United States Army
Soldier will assume command.

In other words, if the boss ain't there, his ranking subordinate is in charge.  Not necessarily the deputy.  Very different than CAP.

The senior officer, warrant officer, cadet, NCO, specialist, or private among troops at the scene of an emergency will assume temporary command and control of the Soldiers present. These provisions also apply to troops separated from their parent units under battlefield conditions. The senior person eligible for command, whether officer or enlisted, within a prisoner of war camp or among a group of prisoners of war, or a group of personnel detained by hostile forces or elements will assume command according to grade and date of rank seniority without regard to service.

In other words, if it isn't clear who the comamnder is, we go with rank.

CAP doesn't do this, and I think it's too bad.  Sure, it won't work for ES (which is all about quals) but it would clear up all the confusion when multiple units participate in the same activity.  We know who's in charge, who we have to listen to - and who should take the blame if he doesn't make things happen.

There's also a part further down requiring all leaders to ensure that all soldiers in public are dressed appropriately and acting correctly, and requiring all soldiers to obey them.  CAP could benefit from that.

Of course, the key to something like this is making sure those we promote would be responsible enough and capable enough to handle this responsibility and authority.