Hazing

[SgtLogan]

I just got the flight sergent position 4 months ago and i train my cadets discipline by having them yell, i raise my voice during drill and when things need to get done but one day some one went to the cadet commander and said i was hazing because i was raising my voice to tell them to fall into flight. All my officers are on my side and thats the way they did them before but hazing goes straight to the national commander. And i dont want to get messed up with that i was left off with a warning. What can i do? So i wont haze

[abdsp51]

No need to have cadets yell, sound off etc.  And there is no need to raise your voice either.  You can accomplish training  and other tasks. 

Has this been addressed to your Sq CC or CDC?  That is the first place to start.

[Cadet12354]

Yelling is not always hazing.  Hazing is where you make an unsafe environment (physically or mentally) for the cadets.  Making cadets do push ups for insufficient shoe shining is one example of hazing.  Yelling from 5 feet away "This is a lousy flight!" is another example.  Yelling, "Keep it up!" during PT is not hazing, though, and yelling "Fall in!" is normal, so you can catch everyone's attention.  Yelling to encourage or to be heard is not hazing.  Check out CAPP 52-23 for more guidance on the appropiate voice levels and what you can say at what times.  I do not know the details of this incident, but the pamphlet will help you.
Also, since when does hazing go straight to the National CC?  That is something that I have never heard before.  According to CAPR 52-10, you do not go to national; you go to the Wing CC.  That really makes mush more sense.  I would recommend reading CAPR 52-10 and CAPP 52-23, and then either discussing it with the cadet commander or with the senior members.  Hazing is something that I absolutely hate, but I also can't stand it when cadet officers contradict regulations.  Sounds like your squadron could be benefited by going over the regulations with everyone.

[lordmonar]

Okay....let me get this straight.

Someone (one of your cadets) complained to the cadet commander that you were crossing the line into hazing.  Then your cadet commander gave you a warning.

If that is the extend to of it....then I would suggest that you follow the instructions given to you during the warning.
If those were unclear...you should go back to that person and ask for clarification.   If they won't or can't give you satisfactory instructions follow the chain of command until you do understand what you should be doing.

[Noble Six]

Chances are it would have been handled at the lowest possible level.  You might of been counseled sat down and had a come to jesus meeting.  I had one of those when I was an over eager C/SSgt.  Now everyone knows.

[SarDragon]

SgtLogan and Cadet12354, I suggest that you both review your Leadership Lab where it talks about Command Voice. Take a close look.

Yelling is NOT the Command Voice. Never has been, never will be. I doubt that the text has changed significantly since the first edition, back in 1965. Learning to speak at a louder volume is a learned skill, and doesn't just happen.

[abdsp51]

You can accomplish your mission and objectives without yelling. 

When I helped to plan and run a basic cadet course day one when the staff arrived they were briefed yelling outside of safety reasons would not be tolerated.  If they were caught they would find themselves reassigned. 

[Flying Pig]

Don't confuse command voice with "yelling".   Having your cadets "sound off" is not hazing.

[Eaker Guy]

I agree with FlyingPig(I couldn't resist a little chuckle. Sorry). Sounding off is not hazing. However, you must realize that their are a wide verity of cadets in the CAP, and not all of them are conducive to high pressure environments. Your C/CC may have pointed this out. I am a C/CC, and I inform my staff to watch out for the cadets that cannot handle the pressure, and make it as comfortable for them as possible, without taking away the benefit of military style training from the rest of the cadets. To deal with this issue, I have a separate staff member who primarily deals with said cadets. Above all, do what your superiors tell you to do, but you can dissent respectfully if you feel your cadets aren't getting the proper military training environment. I would certainly want my staff to do the same. If you do respectfully dissent, back up your argument by citing the resources listed in this thread. They are good resources.

Cadet12345 gave some good advice, as did the rest of the participants in this thread. The one thing I have learned in my time on CPATalk is that you won't get any clear cut answers. Everyone has a different opinion. Evaluate what you have gathered in this discussion, and use it to resolve the situation, if you deem there is one.

Good luck,

C/Maj Kiss

[jeders]

Cadet Logan, it seems like you have unintentionally run afoul of the boundary concerns of the Cadet Protection Policy, specifically with regards to mismatched intensity levels. As others have said, there is a time to yell (CADET, STOP RUNNING ON THE ICE WITH FLAMING KNIVES), and there is a time to have a command presence (which is NOT yelling/being loud), and there is a time to be quiet. Sometimes it can be hard to figure out which intensity level to use at which time, which is why the fine CP folks at NHQ gave us CAPP 52-23. I suggest you read part II, chapters 6-11, which is about 11 pages, and see if maybe you used to high of an intensity level at a time when a lower intensity level was more appropriate.

And again, yelling is never needed out side of getting people to not do stupid unsafe things.

[THRAWN]

And again, yelling is never needed out side of getting people to do stupid unsafe things.

I like my stupid unsafe things without yelling....all that noise is distracting when I'm driving with my knees, eating a burger and texting...

[jeders]

And again, yelling is never needed out side of getting people to do stupid unsafe things.

I like my stupid unsafe things without yelling....all that noise is distracting when I'm driving with my knees, eating a burger and texting...

Fixed that.

[AirAux]

cadet12345, you noted, "Hazing is where you make an unsafe environment (physically or mentally) for the cadets."  Nothing could be further from the truth, hazing is anytime you make another feel uncomfortable enough to think they are being hazed.  Hazing is in the eye of the hazed, not in the eye of the hazer..   

[Cadet12354]

cadet12345, you noted, "Hazing is where you make an unsafe environment (physically or mentally) for the cadets."  Nothing could be further from the truth, hazing is anytime you make another feel uncomfortable enough to think they are being hazed.  Hazing is in the eye of the hazed, not in the eye of the hazer..   

If I am not mistaken, making someone uncomfortable enough that they feel that they are being hazed could constitute an unsafe (mental) environment, thus it is hazing or at least a violation of best practice.  Making people feel like they are being hazed causes an unsafe mental environment for many people, especially the younger cadets.

[LSThiker]

cadet12345, you noted, "Hazing is where you make an unsafe environment (physically or mentally) for the cadets."  Nothing could be further from the truth, hazing is anytime you make another feel uncomfortable enough to think they are being hazed.  Hazing is in the eye of the hazed, not in the eye of the hazer..   

If I am not mistaken, making someone uncomfortable enough that they feel that they are being hazed could constitute an unsafe (mental) environment, thus it is hazing or at least a violation of best practice.  Making people feel like they are being hazed causes an unsafe mental environment for many people, especially the younger cadets.

The official CAP definition of hazing is:

any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful

[Ned]

cadet12345, you noted, "Hazing is where you make an unsafe environment (physically or mentally) for the cadets."  Nothing could be further from the truth, hazing is anytime you make another feel uncomfortable enough to think they are being hazed.  Hazing is in the eye of the hazed, not in the eye of the hazer..   

That is certainly a common misunderstanding, but as it turns out hazing is neither "in the eye of the hazed, nor in the eye of the hazer."  We use an objective standard to determine whether an given incident was hazing.

Principles of Hazing Analysis:
1. Normal authorized training rarely, if ever, amounts to hazing.
2. Not every mismatch between training intensity and subject matter amounts to hazing.
3. Leaders should assess how the questioned actions would affect a reasonable cadet of similar age, gender, and experience under the same or similar conditions.

Which only makes sense. 

All of us have hidden sensibilities and sensitive subjects.  I'd hate to think I would be disciplined for hazing if I told my flight during PT "Please try harder - you cadets exercise like my grandmother!" only to find out later that Cadet Jones' grandmother (with whom she/he was especially close) had died the month before encampment and that my otherwise poor attempt at humorous motivation made the cadet cry.

Similarly, if I attempted to actually haze a cadet by using some of the most vulgar, foul, abusive, and demeaning language imaginable, it will always hazing even if the particular cadet in question consented to it and did not actually feel hazed.

That's why we have to use an objective "reasonable person" standard.

Ned Lee
(Primary author, CAPP 52-23)

[Eaker Guy]

cadet12345, you noted, "Hazing is where you make an unsafe environment (physically or mentally) for the cadets."  Nothing could be further from the truth, hazing is anytime you make another feel uncomfortable enough to think they are being hazed.  Hazing is in the eye of the hazed, not in the eye of the hazer..   

If I am not mistaken, making someone uncomfortable enough that they feel that they are being hazed could constitute an unsafe (mental) environment, thus it is hazing or at least a violation of best practice.  Making people feel like they are being hazed causes an unsafe mental environment for many people, especially the younger cadets.

The official CAP definition of hazing is:

any conduct whereby someone causes another to suffer or be exposed to any activity that is cruel, abusive, humiliating, oppressive, demeaning, or harmful

And if SgtLogan was only raising his voice to be heard, he was definitely not hazing.

The CAP is a military auxiliary. One of the benefits of the CAP is it's military style environment. Some cadets confuse yelling with the command voice, and all of a sudden, the military environment no longer exists. This is a sad, sad fact. If the cadets don't like it, they can either deal with it or leave. It needs to be explained to the cadets why a louder than normal voice is required when drilling. If they still don't like it, fine. Just don't reprimand the cadets administering the military training environment because one cadet complains. It is very frustrating. Just plain frustrating. Of course the CP should be positive, and that's the point. Using a command voice is positive. The other 99% of cadets like it, so why are we even having this discussion? We should try to be accommodating, but not overly so. Forgive my poor use of analogies, but we are abandoning the rest of he herd to find the one lost sheep. We our doing the rat of be cadets a disservice if we lower out standards any further. I do realize that special needs cadets may not tolerate the intensity as well as others, and that's what I mean by accommodating.

Thoughts?

C/Maj Kiss

[Holding Pattern]

(CADET, STOP RUNNING ON THE ICE WITH FLAMING KNIVES)

I can't stop laughing at this image.

[AirAux]

Ned, no offense, but you have been in the ivory tower for too long.  What the Reg's say and what happens on the ground level are two different things.  If a cadets feels they have been hazed and make a complaint, it starts balls rolling that are hard to stop.  By the time the "reasonable man" theory is developed, we have removed members from participation as there is no "presumed innocent" theory involved in this area.  Therefore from the time Johnny looks crosseyed at Jimmy and Jimmy files a vague complaint about hazing, Johnny will have missed many meetings before someone at some level, perhaps at a panel, six months later will have determined no harm no foul.  Better safe than sorry.  No sign of hazing not even if a reasonable man would do it.. 

[jeders]

(CADET, STOP RUNNING ON THE ICE WITH FLAMING KNIVES)

I can't stop laughing at this image.

Then I have done my job. Not responsible for damage to keyboards, monitors, computers, or kittens caused by sudden and rapid expulsion of liquids from the mouth. Laughter is at your own risk.

Ned, no offense, but you have been in the ivory tower for too long.  What the Reg's say and what happens on the ground level are two different things.  If a cadets feels they have been hazed and make a complaint, it starts balls rolling that are hard to stop.  By the time the "reasonable man" theory is developed, we have removed members from participation as there is no "presumed innocent" theory involved in this area.  Therefore from the time Johnny looks crosseyed at Jimmy and Jimmy files a vague complaint about hazing, Johnny will have missed many meetings before someone at some level, perhaps at a panel, six months later will have determined no harm no foul.  Better safe than sorry.  No sign of hazing not even if a reasonable man would do it.. 

Air Aux, no offense, but if people would read and follow the rules, most of those balls would stop rolling very quickly.