Delay of Promotion Due to Lack Of Personnel? Really???

[CAPDCCMOM]

I am a DCC for a small Composite Squadron. I have a cadet that has passed all of his Level 3 requirements except Drill. Our Cadet Program is in a, lets say rebuild phase. Most of my Cadets ave just passed their Curry, Way to go Guys :clap:!!! My Cadet ready for Level 3 was denied his Drill Test and delayed in Promotion, because "there were not enough people to participate in a Drill Test. The Cadet's morale is diminished as a result. Any suggestions???

[lordmonar]

So......why did you deny his promotion?

YOU are the DCC......YOU are the promotion authority for cadets in a composite squadron.

Who is doing the denying? 

I would suggest that you look at the drill test book and see how many cadets you actually need to do drill testing for Achievement 3. 

[Tim Day]

Serving as a Deputy Commander for Cadets is tough duty. WRT your cadet, I assume by Level 3 you're referring to Achievement 3, which does require 4 cadets in a formation. I hope he was not delayed more than one week for this.

I've used senior members in place of cadets to fill out the formation before. Cadet just has to know how to do the movements as part of a flight.

If you're a CDC for a small unit with few senior members helping, I recommend you become a testing officer.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Sgt Harris, Thank you for your response. The CO has delayed the promotion. All I need are four people, and I have those, but my CO is not listening. to me.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Col Day, Thank you Sir for the response. The CO delayed the promotion and has said it may need to wait until July. Nowhere in CAPR- 52-16 have I seen anything about promotion delay due to lack of people for a DRill Test

[lordmonar]

Sgt Harris, Thank you for your response. The CO has delayed the promotion. All I need are four people, and I have those, but my CO is not listening. to me.

Well....then there are a couple of ways to attack this.

One.....go over the commanders head.....always an option but there are consequences.
Two....quit.   If the commander does not have trust in your judgement then he needs to replace you as DCC.

52-16 does not talk about delaying due to not enough people to participate.....because it assumes you will be able to scrape up the minimum as spelled out in the test guide.

[NC Hokie]

Do you have a testing officer available to administer this test along with three other cadets or senior members willing to fill out the formation?  If so, have the testing officer give the test at the next available opportunity, and submit the cadet's promotion if he or she passes.  If the testing officer is consistently unavailable, see if someone else (perhaps you) can be assigned as an assistant testing officer.

If there is no testing officer, that's a deeper issue that needs to be addressed with your commander, as that is a violation of CAP regulations.  If the commander is the testing officer, that is also a violation of CAP regulations.

[Holding Pattern]

Might be a silly idea, but is there another squadron close by? If so, can you ask them to send some cadets over for one of your meeting days as part of an exchange program, and by the way, help this cadet meet his achievement goal?

[kwe1009]

We have used senior members and even JROTC cadets when we did not have enough for a drill test.  You should never penalize the cadet because there is not enough cadets for a drill test.

[coudano]

In a pinch, I think you could use 'ghost' marchers,
in other words, sorry cadet, we don't have enough people here....   So you're going to do column right AS IF you were the second element leader", or do 'open ranks' as if you were the 3rd member (of 5) in the second element (of 3).  for example.

It's not pretty, but it can get the job done.

Also, it probably requires the cadet to have a more thorough understanding of what is going on, as opposed to standing in a large group, with a lot of visual cues.



The problem with using a bunch of cadets that just got their curry as flight fillers for a cadet testing for achievement 3 (or even wba) is that the basic cadets might not be proficient themselves in everything that the cadet you are testing needs to do.  This seems to line up with your squadron commander's timing suggestion (in a few months, all those cadets will be more proficient at that type of drill).  Certainly, when you are evaluating a cadet for achievement 3 drill, you don't hold it against him if other cadets in the flight make mistakes;  you really only want to know if that cadet being evaluated has done the movement correctly or not.



I would not hold a cadet back for something out of the cadet's control like this.

Actually, having a cadet on the edge of putting on C/SSgt, just as you have a bunch of other cadets freshly putting on C/A1C (and ideally recruiting a half dozen more shortly) is *IDEAL* in a 'rebuilding phase'.  Not knowing your specifics, or the individual cadet in question, I think this cadet should be getting pushed forward, not held back.

[NC Hokie]

Might be a silly idea, but is there another squadron close by? If so, can you ask them to send some cadets over for one of your meeting days as part of an exchange program, and by the way, help this cadet meet his achievement goal?

Or...can your cadet take the drill test at a nearby unit?

[Holding Pattern]

Indeed. What looks like a problem IMO is an opportunity in disguise to get some cross squadron activities on the table.

[CAPDCCMOM]

  Thank you for the assorted replies and ideas. I do agree, this is a time to work with other Squadrons, an idea I have had for a while. This is just the catalyst I needed.

One more question, I thought that a Deputy Commander for Cadets was banned from being a Testing Officer as well, is that true. I am also related to two cadets.

[lordmonar]

Thank you for the assorted replies and ideas. I do agree, this is a time to work with other Squadrons, an idea I have had for a while. This is just the catalyst I needed.

One more question, I thought that a Deputy Commander for Cadets was banned from being a Testing Officer as well, is that true. I am also related to two cadets.

52-16 discourages the testing officer from administering the test to relatives....but does not out right forbid it.

It does out right forbid the commander from being the testing officer.

[Pylon]

Also, as alluded to above, you're the Deputy Commander for Cadets.  You are the promotion authority and you control the cadet side of the house.  It's fully within the purview of your duty position to arrange the drill test yourself, arranging for what the regulation calls for, which is 4 cadets (using other fill-ins if necessary: seniors, JROTC, cadets from another squadron, whomever to reach the regulatory number) and administer it.  Then once the cadet has passed, you have full authority to sign-off on the promotions.


Make sure, of course, you document everything well to avoid any appearance of favoritism.  If somebody above you questions your authority to do this, show the regulation (namely CAPR 52-16).  Ask them to point out anything to the contrary to what you've done (protip: they will be unable to).

[Av8tion]

The kind of narrow-minded thinking your squadron commander is demonstrating (according to what you've said) leads me to believe one of two things

1) There is another reason why this cadet is being held back which he/she is either keeping from you or not communicating effectively to you (both of which are bad)
2) Your CC has a very misguided idea of how the cadet program is run and shouldn't be interfering in the cadet program.

Either way... I think your commander needs to have a nice long talk with the group/wing commander about how he/she is (mis)managing their program

[coudano]

Well at the very least, the commander should be communicating openly and clearly with YOU (his deputy).  Maybe he has a more legitimate reason that he just hasn't done a very good job of sharing with you.

Like I said, unless there is an extenuating circumstance, I think holding the cadet back for a reason like this is not a good choice.


You probably won't be ingratiating yourself particularly to just test and promote the cadet after the commander has explicitly said no (even though it is completely within your power).

You and your commander should be on the same page, and acting in concert with each-other (on the basis of shared values and reasoning), not under-cutting / overriding each-other.

In my experience, the best relationship is where the deputy commander for cadets autonomously runs the cadet program (including senior member cadet program officers like the leadership officer(s), cd instructor, etc)  and keeps the squadron commander briefed as to what is going on... and then the squadron commander stays out of the way and provides top cover and support.  But even this arrangement requires the commander and the deputy to arrive at a mutual understanding and working relationship and an agreed-upon model that the commander can live with supporting, without micromanaging.  Basically the squadron commander should show up on promotion and awards night to hand out cadets' stripes and ribbons and awards.  And probably serve as activity chaperone on occasion.      **The best feature of this arrangement is that it almost completely frees the squadron commander to focus on the other pieces of the squadron like personnel, pro development, flying (if any), transportation, logistics, finance, safety, and myriad other stuff from group and wing.

[Av8tion]

Well at the very least, the commander should be communicating openly and clearly with YOU (his deputy).  Maybe he has a more legitimate reason that he just hasn't done a very good job of sharing with you.

Like I said, unless there is an extenuating circumstance, I think holding the cadet back for a reason like this is not a good choice.


You probably won't be ingratiating yourself particularly to just test and promote the cadet after the commander has explicitly said no (even though it is completely within your power).

You and your commander should be on the same page, and acting in concert with each-other (on the basis of shared values and reasoning), not under-cutting / overriding each-other.

In my experience, the best relationship is where the deputy commander for cadets autonomously runs the cadet program (including senior member cadet program officers like the leadership officer(s), cd instructor, etc)  and keeps the squadron commander briefed as to what is going on... and then the squadron commander stays out of the way and provides top cover and support.  But even this arrangement requires the commander and the deputy to arrive at a mutual understanding and working relationship and an agreed-upon model that the commander can live with supporting, without micromanaging.

I completely agree with the above.

**The best feature of this arrangement is that it almost completely frees the squadron commander to focus on the other pieces of the squadron like personnel, pro development, flying (if any), transportation, logistics, finance, safety, and myriad other stuff from group and wing.

That's what the Deputy Commander of Seniors is for. Ideally, the DCC handles the cadets and CP seniors and the DCS handles the other aspects of the unit. The commander is there to ensure compliance/quality, deal with higher HQ, set the overall objectives of the unit and let the deputy commanders handle the implementation. The commander is the steering wheel, the DC's and staff officers are the engine.

[Alaric]

Well at the very least, the commander should be communicating openly and clearly with YOU (his deputy).  Maybe he has a more legitimate reason that he just hasn't done a very good job of sharing with you.

Like I said, unless there is an extenuating circumstance, I think holding the cadet back for a reason like this is not a good choice.


You probably won't be ingratiating yourself particularly to just test and promote the cadet after the commander has explicitly said no (even though it is completely within your power).

You and your commander should be on the same page, and acting in concert with each-other (on the basis of shared values and reasoning), not under-cutting / overriding each-other.

In my experience, the best relationship is where the deputy commander for cadets autonomously runs the cadet program (including senior member cadet program officers like the leadership officer(s), cd instructor, etc)  and keeps the squadron commander briefed as to what is going on... and then the squadron commander stays out of the way and provides top cover and support.  But even this arrangement requires the commander and the deputy to arrive at a mutual understanding and working relationship and an agreed-upon model that the commander can live with supporting, without micromanaging.

I completely agree with the above.

If the deputy commanders are running the programs autonomously, then the commander has abrogated his responsibilities.  That's why they are called Deputies, if you don't like how your commander is running things then speak to him privately, or run for his position.

**The best feature of this arrangement is that it almost completely frees the squadron commander to focus on the other pieces of the squadron like personnel, pro development, flying (if any), transportation, logistics, finance, safety, and myriad other stuff from group and wing.

That's what the Deputy Commander of Seniors is for. Ideally, the DCC handles the cadets and CP seniors and the DCS handles the other aspects of the unit. The commander is there to ensure compliance/quality, deal with higher HQ, set the overall objectives of the unit and let the deputy commanders handle the implementation. The commander is the steering wheel, the DC's and staff officers are the engine.

As the steering wheel, the ultimate decision is his, as is the ultimately responsibility

[Spam]

The CO delayed the promotion and has said it may need to wait until July.

As others have suggested, there is more to the picture here. Why July, when it is not even May quite yet?  Sounds like there's something we haven't heard yet.

Speculation: is he thinking, "delay until we have four other cadets who can do a column maneuver" (July)?  If so, he is knowingly delaying the advancement and motivation of a fast burner who could potentially be your next Flight Sergeant and eventually provide you with a Flight Commander or Cadet Commander.  You might point out that as CC and CDC (your correct office code for "DCC" by the way), thinking ahead strategically means not slowing everyone down to the least common denominator. Your goal is to push them, per the Cadet Oath, to "advance their education and training rapidly".

By the way, are your dependent cadets or his involved in this in any way?

V/R,
Spam

[catrulz]

The CO delayed the promotion and has said it may need to wait until July.

As others have suggested, there is more to the picture here. Why July, when it is not even May quite yet?  Sounds like there's something we haven't heard yet.

Speculation: is he thinking, "delay until we have four other cadets who can do a column maneuver" (July)?  If so, he is knowingly delaying the advancement and motivation of a fast burner who could potentially be your next Flight Sergeant and eventually provide you with a Flight Commander or Cadet Commander.  You might point out that as CC and CDC (your correct office code for "DCC" by the way), thinking ahead strategically means not slowing everyone down to the least common denominator. Your goal is to push them, per the Cadet Oath, to "advance their education and training rapidly".

By the way, are your dependent cadets or his involved in this in any way?

V/R,
Spam

I agree with this, something is unspoken here.  Is the cadet expecting promotion related to you?

CAPR 52-16 5-4.  Members will not proctor or score tests for cadets who are related to them unless no other senior member is available to do so.  (this indicates "will not" if another senior member is available). 

Either the commander is not being upfront with his reasons or something has been left out of the OP story.  coudano's assessment of the command climate and the cc/dcc relationship is critical to whats occurring here.  The OP also doesn't appear to have a lot of CP experience (not a criticism, everyone has to begin at some point and time).   Many times what parents scream out as injustice, is actually the unit performing per the regulations.

So, my last question, is there someone in the unit that is or willing to mentor you in DCC duties and CP management? 

[rmutchler]

I know it has been said before, but get seniors to do formation in lieu of delaying promotion.  I have even got in formation as a Squadron CC in order to ensure the cadets succeed.  Lead by example.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I'll add my 10 cents having been a DCC in this postion.

I'm also the Testing Officer, and we have an alternate for that role.

I put whoever I had available into the formation, and that included being able to simulate a Pass in Review when that was required.  Honestly, you could even use parents to fill spaces if you needed to.  The only person I wouldn't put into formaiton as a space filler is the Testing Officer as they do need to be able to observe!  Like rmutchler said, I even put the CC in during one test.

Take hold of the program would be my advice.

[Tim Day]

Col Day, Thank you Sir for the response. The CO delayed the promotion and has said it may need to wait until July. Nowhere in CAPR- 52-16 have I seen anything about promotion delay due to lack of people for a DRill Test

That doesn't seem good, as others have stated. You may be able to handle this with the help of your Wing Director of Cadet Programs, who may be able to send an email to all CCs reviewing promotion policies. That way you are using your staff coordination authorities versus skipping the chain of command (like you would be if you went to the Group CC). Note that if a CC denies a promotion he is required to explain why.

CAPR 52-16.e. Sustaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders may sustain a promotion-eligible cadet in grade if the cadet's performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or deputy commander) will offer constructive feed-back to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills. The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days.

So your Commander owes this Cadet a CAPF 50 with specific instructions as to how to promote, which means the whole decision must be in writing.

[coudano]

Col Day, Thank you Sir for the response. The CO delayed the promotion and has said it may need to wait until July. Nowhere in CAPR- 52-16 have I seen anything about promotion delay due to lack of people for a DRill Test

That doesn't seem good, as others have stated. You may be able to handle this with the help of your Wing Director of Cadet Programs, who may be able to send an email to all CCs reviewing promotion policies. That way you are using your staff coordination authorities versus skipping the chain of command (like you would be if you went to the Group CC). Note that if a CC denies a promotion he is required to explain why.

CAPR 52-16.e. Sustaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders may sustain a promotion-eligible cadet in grade if the cadet's performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or deputy commander) will offer constructive feed-back to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills. The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days.

So your Commander owes this Cadet a CAPF 50 with specific instructions as to how to promote, which means the whole decision must be in writing.

not really...
the cadet isn't "promotion eligible" until he passes the drill test.

It sounds to me like the drill test is the thing being put off until July.



That said, you "can't" just not offer any CPFT's, or character development sessions, for a few months, for some reason or the other...   Because it's inconvenient, or you can't find a way to staff it.  --especially to just one cadet.

You figure out a solution and press.


--once again, end running the commander by coordinating through wing CP is going to cause you nothing but problems at home.

[Tim Day]

Col Day, Thank you Sir for the response. The CO delayed the promotion and has said it may need to wait until July. Nowhere in CAPR- 52-16 have I seen anything about promotion delay due to lack of people for a DRill Test

That doesn't seem good, as others have stated. You may be able to handle this with the help of your Wing Director of Cadet Programs, who may be able to send an email to all CCs reviewing promotion policies. That way you are using your staff coordination authorities versus skipping the chain of command (like you would be if you went to the Group CC). Note that if a CC denies a promotion he is required to explain why.

CAPR 52-16.e. Sustaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders may sustain a promotion-eligible cadet in grade if the cadet's performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or deputy commander) will offer constructive feed-back to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills. The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days.

So your Commander owes this Cadet a CAPF 50 with specific instructions as to how to promote, which means the whole decision must be in writing.

not really...
the cadet isn't "promotion eligible" until he passes the drill test.

It sounds to me like the drill test is the thing being put off until July.



That said, you "can't" just not offer any CPFT's, or character development sessions, for a few months, for some reason or the other...   Because it's inconvenient, or you can't find a way to staff it.  --especially to just one cadet.

You figure out a solution and press.


--once again, end running the commander by coordinating through wing CP is going to cause you nothing but problems at home.

CAPR 52-16 also requires Commanders to offer testing at least once every 30 days and to provide a consistent advancement opportunity to all Cadets. This CC, by this account, is denying a promotion opportunity to a cadet.

A CDC talking to a Wing DCP is not end-running the Commander. It's well within a CDC's staff lines of communication to speak to the DCP to clarify policy in order to provide your best recommendation to your CC. Just like your squadron Ops O can talk to the Wing Ops O about aircraft availability. And if the CC is willfully violating the CAPR 52-16, the DCP needs to know.

Waiting until July outright violates the Commander's responsibility as directed by the CAPR 52-16 - but your CC may not be aware of this as many rely on their CDC for Cadet Program knowledge.

[coudano]

CAPR 52-16 requires commanders to offer the opportunity to take WRITTEN TESTS (milestones, or cadets who can not test academics online for some reason) at least once every 30 days

5-4. Protocols for Paper-Based Exams. All cadet milestone award exams, except the Spaatz Award exam, (see 5-12) are available in hard copy format only. Milestone award exams are always closed book, but their test conditions vary, as shown in Figure 5-1. Members will not proctor or score tests for cadets who are related to them unless no other senior member is available to do so.

a. Frequency. Commanders will provide cadets an opportunity to test at least once every 30 days. Cadets who fail tests or exams may not retest on the same date.

Drill testing, under a different section, carries no such requirement or restriction:

5-6. Drill Tests. Some leadership tests require cadets to perform drill and ceremonies. Cadets may help proctor drill tests under adult leader supervision. Cadets who are unable to drill due to a disability or injury will complete drill tests to the extent possible. The commander may waive all or part of a drill test for Physical Fitness Category II, III or IV cadets (see 2-10).

I agree, that talking with your counterparts at other squadrons, group, and wing itself is not an end-run.  However, when it goes the next step, by the wing staff office leading the wing commander to come out and make an edict to squadron commanders (as suggested above), you start getting into end-run territory.  Squadron commanders aren't particularly dumb...  Commander makes a decision X, at the protest of one of his subordinates and a few weeks later, mysteriously...  wing commander is publicly announcing how "X" isn't proper.  He can probably figure out to a pretty good degree of certainty how that happened...  Again, it's not explicitly forbidden to do so (neither is just testing and promoting the cadet yourself, as a deputy commander); however it isn't going to make any friends.


If the squadron commander is willfully violating regulations, the "right" person to talk to is probably the IG (which also won't make you any friends at home).  However, in this case, I don't think you can show that the squadron commander is explicitly breaking any rule.


The BEST person to talk to about this issue is the squadron commander, directly.


All that said, I fully agree... that just waiting until July is not ideal.

[lordmonar]

While 52-16 does not specify a mandatory testing opportunity for drill testing.   It is obvious that it is in the spirit of the regulation that an opportunity be given. 

As for the "right" person to talk to....you are wrong.   The right person to talk to is the group or wing commander.   That is the chain of command.   You are not jumping the chain of command....as you have already talked to the commander in question.....and he is the problem.

Also.....the commander is explicitly breaking the regulations....at least as far as the OP's information shows. 

[coudano]

Yah sure, I was suggesting going back to the squadron commander first, to try and work it out.

But yeah, the group commander would be "next" (supposing that you even HAVE a group commander)

However, let's think through the options available to the group commander...


1. Outright support the appointed squadron commander (tell the offended member to shut up and color).  This is probably default.  And especially so if your group/cc is not heavily experienced with the cadet program.

2.  Do nothing at all.  Wait for it to go away on its own.  In July(?)  Which is basically the same thing as supporting the appointed squadron commander.  This is also (probably) the most likely course of action...  By the time a group commander takes the time to understand what is going on, and arrive at a decision, and actually take something resembling a command action, it might be July anyway...

3. Support the offended member (tell the appointed squadron commander he is wrong, and expected to reverse his decision).  Not going to make any friends at home.  --Maybe your squadron commander is already on the edge and this is just the straw on the camel's back.   Careful though, if squadron commander quits in a huff, or is even removed, guess who the new squadron commander is... (!!!)

4.  Escalate the issue to a higher level of command.  Probably very unlikely.

5.  Mediate the discussion that you should be having directly with your squadron commander anyway, to facilitate working out your local issues at the local level.  Very unlikely, I think, but a wise group commander might try this.



Look,
there are things that you CAN do, and that are not regulatorily forbidden, and some that are even explicitly allowed paths for you to follow.  However, just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it.   The long term consequences of your course could adversely affect your relationship with the squadron, and could even damage the squadron for a long time.

Getting your cadet the opportunity to promote before July seems like the immediate goal.  And you can probably accomplish that goal if you don't mind scorching a little earth.  Pretty much the entire cadet program community has already agreed that withholding this cadet until July for the reason stated, is poor policy and probably a bad CP philosophy.

But establishing a working relationship amongst the staff of the squadron, and creating a local model of the cadet program that prevents this sort of situation from happening in the future, is the better way to make the squadron and cadet program stronger, and sustain volunteers who will continue to input the local program longer.  That makes a better program and a more positive environment for your cadet to continue to participate in after putting on that third stripe.  That really should be the big picture goal, here (in my opinion).

[lordmonar]

Yep all true.

I was just pointing out that while the IG route is available.....we should always use the chain of command when possible.

Going to the IG vs going to the group/wing commander has all the same consequences as far as "do you really want to rock the boat" goes.   We should be encouraging our members to use the proper channels but to intelligently with malice aforethought to challenge our leaders when ever they do something that does not seem right.

I don't know what is going on in the OP's commander's mind.

He may just think....Let's wait until July and there won't be such a rank gap.  Or "In July the rest of the squadron should be up to speed to give a better test".  Or maybe there is something not being said......"How do I tell Mrs Cadetmom that little Johnny is not ready for promotion with out here freaking out"......or any number of different issues.

The bottom line is.

We should not be holding back cadets from promoting just because of an "admin" issue.   "we can't give you the test because we don't have pencils"  is not an answer I would accept as wing CP Director. 

But if the wing CP director does not know what is going on.....nothing is going to get fixed.

[MSG Mac]

If I recall the Feik Achievement  is the drill of an element. Surely the cadet has three cadets to drill. It should be able to be done at a regular meeting as a part of his drilling with his/her flight. 

[abdsp51]

Alot of unknowns here. 

I think we can all agree that cadets should have every opportunity possible to test to advance in the program. 

Rereading what the OP stated, she stated "may have to wait until July" not has to or will but may.  Now we all know this is not ideal for anyone involved with the dynamic.  And I am curious how long she has been a CDC and how much experience she has in cadet programs.  I would also be curious to know how long the CC has been CC and his/her cadet programs experience. 

The Feik achievement for drill is advanced drill as part of a flight.  I am sure that some arrangement can be made with another unit to assist for this.  There have been some great suggestions in how to handle this and I would say that the best one is to talk to CC away from everyone and see where their thought process is. 

I know that if I ever become a Sq CC I would prefer to have my staff tell me I am wrong than to be blindsided by something.

[Tim Day]

But yeah, the group commander would be "next" (supposing that you even HAVE a group commander)

However, let's think through the options available to the group commander...

There is a difference between following the chain-of-command and staff coordination. Generally, unless you know there's a willful violation of a regulation it makes sense to coordinate with staff before engaging Commanders above your Unit Commander if possible. If there really is an outright violation (and there may not be - could be just a misunderstanding) the DCP can elevate as appropriate. If it's a misunderstanding, the DCP can help develop a new CDC a bit. That's why staffs exist.

Additionally, the DCP is there to support the Wing CC's responsibility toward the Cadet Program wing-wide, including correcting any negative trends. It's rare that a policy misinterpretation is limited to one squadron.

Your bit there about the limited options available to a Group CC supports my point about coordinating staff-staff first. The DCP can't direct the Squadron Commander to do anything (but he can inform commanders about the Wing Commander's guidance). A DCP can clarify policy (for example, a DCP could work with NHQ/CP to clarify whether the spirit of the regulation is that there is a minimum required drill testing opportunity rate). OBTW, if you have a Group DCP that'd be my first go-to rather than the Wing DCP, but I think these are rare.

Now, if your point is that prior to reporting something to the IG the CDC should go back to CC with a proposed course of action, e.g., we need to provide this Cadet with a drill test using 2 SM to fill in the shortfall, here's what CAPR 52-16 states about testing opportunities, and here's the DCP's interpretation, then I agree, and that's a good clarification. I would only advise going to a Commander above or filing an IG report if the Squadron Commander willfully violates regulations or policy.

[catrulz]

A good IG, Chaplain, DCP, higher lever CC are all going to ask, have you discussed this with your Squadron CC.  The information provided to this forum, does not demonstrate that that discussion has taken place.  There are two sides to all stories, and there is only 1/2 of this one.  The Sqdn CC may be violating CAPR 52-16 or may not be.  I would agree that the drill test should be administered before promotion is denied for other reason, and yes documented on CAPF 50.

Based on posts from the OP, we are not hearing from an experienced CAP member, let alone an experienced CDC (cadet programs officer).  I say again, there is no shame in being new or inexperienced.  But without experience, and without the other side of the story, any advice will do more harm than good.  Only a small percentage of complaints that end up at the IG, could not have been solved at the lowest level, with good communication between the individual filing the complaint and the target of the complaint. 

I have seen 4 cases of over-bearing, cadet career pushing parents in the last 15 years. My squadron is down to 5 cadets now because of having the guts ripped out of it by such an example.  It takes years to recover from some one that is overly focused on their cadet, and under focused on the entire cadet program.  The question was never answered, is the cadet related to the OP?   How many other CP officers are in the unit?  Is anyone mentoring DCCMOM in CP?  Is the CC overly focused on some unit event like an upcoming SUI?  There are simply too many unknowns.

Please, do not destroy any cohesion your unit may have, without making a heroic effort to resolve this within your unit with your CC.  Call your CC on a non-meeting night, go out and have coffee, and discuss it one on one, calmly and rationally.  There is a time and place to file complaints, or seek staff assistance.  But remember, CAP units unlike military units are not a group of professionals, but rather a group of friends that act professionally.  To maintain a climate within your unit, you have to maintain inter-personal relationships that ensure continued harmonious operations.

If you are absolutely right, then you may have to file a complaint.  Which may result down the road in you having to find a new CAP home, or leaving the organization.  Remember, the IG, DCP, Group/Wing CC is going to look at this from all angles, not only yours!   

[Tim Day]

Ok, rather than add another comment I'll just include a link to the CAP Officer Basic Course, with a recommendation that anyone with questions on the difference between "line" (command)  and "staff" officers review the "CAP Chain of Command" lesson in Block 2.

One of the beautiful things about CAP is the diversity of opinions out here, and if the OP is a new member of CAP she'll likely benefit from reviewing what CAP actually teaches about these concepts and making up her own mind.

[ZigZag911]

Yep all true.

I was just pointing out that while the IG route is available.....we should always use the chain of command when possible.

Going to the IG vs going to the group/wing commander has all the same consequences as far as "do you really want to rock the boat" goes.   We should be encouraging our members to use the proper channels but to intelligently with malice aforethought to challenge our leaders when ever they do something that does not seem right.

And, in fact, the IG program encourages the use of chain of command, and that problems be addressed & resolved at the lowest echelon possible...ideally, with the least conflict,  fuss and formailty possible!

[LSThiker]

There are a lot of holes in the story that have lots of questions.  However, until then, it will just simply be speculation.  Considering that she has not responded for 6 days, I think she has moved on from this issue (at least in the realm of CAPTalk).

[Майор Хаткевич]

I assumed that it was her kid. Just got that vibe. Maybe the CC has the typical "hard conversation disfunction" that most in CAP have, and this was the way to delay promotion without explaining it to mom. Dunno, just the vibe I got.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Actually, No it was not my Kid. My job is to see every Cadet as my "kid". I would advocate just as hard for any Cadet. I was and am still trying to figure out regulations that read like Chinese to English translations for setting up a stereo.

Ask a question, get blasted on this forum. Don't ask and pretend....fit right in in this forum.

[CadetSnuffy]

Ask a question, get blasted on this forum. Don't ask and pretend....fit right in in this forum.

You know this forum too well...

[kwe1009]

Simple solution:

Ask your commander specifically why this cadet must wait until July for a simple drill test.  If the reason is "not enough cadets" then ask why can't Senior Members be used.  If he says "not authorized" or something like that then ask for the regulation reference.  If he still doesn't budge then let him know that you are going to talk to the Wing cadet programs staff to see if they have a solution to not hold up this cadet for so long.  If the commander balks at that then you really need to think about going up the chain of command because this commander does not seem to have the interest of his squadron members at heart.

Both you and your commander should be looking for solutions to help the cadet.  it seems that you are but your commander is not.

[Garibaldi]

I call BS and shenanigans.

For someone to say that a cadet has to wait to be promoted because of X, Y, or Z, and they can't supply answers as to why, and as long as those reasons do not include disciplinary reasons, time in grade, or incomplete qualifications, then I call BS and someone needs to fix it. If the unit CC is the one stalling, then the next available in the chain needs to be consulted IMO. I will do what I need to make sure my cadets are happy, active and promoting.

They are why we are here, most of us. At least those of us in CP. Stop the BS and stop it for all time.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Simple solution:

Ask your commander specifically why this cadet must wait until July for a simple drill test.  If the reason is "not enough cadets" then ask why can't Senior Members be used.  If he says "not authorized" or something like that then ask for the regulation reference.  If he still doesn't budge then let him know that you are going to talk to the Wing cadet programs staff to see if they have a solution to not hold up this cadet for so long.  If the commander balks at that then you really need to think about going up the chain of command because this commander does not seem to have the interest of his squadron members at heart.

Both you and your commander should be looking for solutions to help the cadet.  it seems that you are but your commander is not.

Why is this even an issue? The CDC should be dealing with this. The CC has a job to do, and micromanaging a drill test is not one of them. Is your unit small? Under 4 cadets? Is there a reason you cannot have 3 more cadets fall out to form a square? There's simply not enough details, and I'll take my comment back and apologize for my extrapolations. But you come in here, with a "Delay of Promotion Due to Lack Of Personnel? Really???" title, which at the very least implies a very personal affront, and hints (along with your latest post) to a newer member thrown into the deep end of the pool where they simply can't manage to keep their neck above water. Not to mention the CDC coming to Captalk to hash this out instead of addressing it with the commander then and there hints at a poorly working leadership dynamic between the two of you.


Look, you need help with regs? This is a decent place to ask. You need advice? Sure thing. But give us the details.


I was a cadet.
I was a cadet commander.
I am a senior.
I am the assistant CDC and dabble in encampment staff.


Send me a PM, whether on this issue if more detail is "pushing it" on some buttons, or any other questions. I'll help where I can, because at the end of the day, thank you for stepping up to the task, and yes, we know it's hard to wrap your head around it when you're new (and even now...in year 13...).

[Tim Day]

Actually, No it was not my Kid. My job is to see every Cadet as my "kid". I would advocate just as hard for any Cadet. I was and am still trying to figure out regulations that read like Chinese to English translations for setting up a stereo.

Ask a question, get blasted on this forum. Don't ask and pretend....fit right in in this forum.

Many CDCs are parents or other Senior Members who are sacrificing time and emotional energy to do something good for the young adults in our Cadet Program, despite lacking as much familiarity with the CAPR 52-16 and other regulations as would be ideal. As soon as time permits, I hope you'll take the Officer Basic Course (if you haven't already) and Training Leaders of Cadets (TLC). These will help understand the regulations and the culture behind them.

Wing staffs have a person available who can mentor and support struggling CDCs - the Director of Cadet Programs. In the OBC lesson on CAP Chain of Command, there is a scenario which has some parallels to yours that illustrates how a CDC can discuss an issue with the DCP without violating the chain of command, get some advice, and in turn provide a good recommendation to the CC.

Yes, you will encounter individuals on this forum who "blast" although I suspect many don't realize they are coming across as unprofessional. However, there are a few individuals here who really do care (even if they sometimes come across as gruff). The NHQ Director of Cadet Programs also hangs out here and sometimes comments.

I'd be interested to see how your situation turns out, if you feel like sharing. Feel free to update me via PM if you don't want to broadcast.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I'd like to support Lt Col Day's comments; the OBC and TLC add great value and are well worth the time needed to complete them.

I've been a CDC until recently and benefitted greatly from some mentoring from both the Wing Staff and from an older and wiser CAP member - I'd recommend finding one to help you generally, ideally outside of your chain of command so they have a different perspective.

Lt Col Day is also wholly correct concerning the time and emotional energy that we contribute to the cadet program; pace yourself.

Most of all - enjoy CAP! 


Antony Davies
Captain, CAP
VA-002