2 promotion per year, or 2B

[Flying Pig]

Do you get nose bleeds way up there on the pedestal?  I know you love to talk about baselines and you are really hardcore when it comes to CAP. Fact is there are loads of kids who look back on CAP and see it as a time in their life when it kept them out of trouble. They didn't come and cause problems.  They weren't cut any slack.  But I knew when they went home, they didn't live in environments that allowed them to sit and study or put money aside for encampments or other activities.  A few were not great students.  They joined the program and it provided the direction they needed.  We are talking about a couple cadets on a 35 cadet unit.  Not running a rec center where kids came and played ball and called me "Coach".  But I knew who the cadets were who were accomplishing a tremendous feat just by walking out their front doors with a CAP uniform on.  If that cadet chose to stay an A1C for a year, we encouraged and motivated. But it was Ok. Those 2 particular cadet are now in the Air Force.   

Keep running with your hardline CAP mindset. I'm sure there are people who enjoy it.   I don't have any need for it.

[Eclipse]

Keep running with your hardline CAP mindset. I'm sure there are people who enjoy it. 

How is this "my" mind set?  This is the program as written and put forth by NHQ.  It appears a lot of people forget that.
In most cases, I advocate simply following the program, because all the "local allowances" are what is driving this organization
into the ground on the whole through "death by a thousand cuts".

I also never said >you< were specifically running a rec center, I disagreed with your general statement that it was
OK for cadets with nowhere else to go to just come to meetings (which it isn't).  I further indicated that
waving a Merit or Distinction streamer as validation of your program, given the nature of that award, did not support
your argument.

I don't know you personally, but I feel I know you from your years of posting, and doubt very seriously that you personally
would ever run a substandard program, if I did I would make those accusations, or wouldn't say anything. 

That doesn't preclude me from making the general disagreement on principle that CAP should be run like a rec center
and kids allowed to come and go because they have "no where else to go". That's not what CAP is about.  I have personally
seen units run that way, to the ultimate detriment of a lot of people involved, because contrary to the belief of some Commanders,
units do not exist in a vacuum.

[Spam]

Any CP officer who has some experience has seen "fast burner" and "slow burner" cadets progress at different rates based on ability and desire. This can be seen as situationally good or bad on an individual or unit basis:

There are without question cadet units that are "fast burner" units, pushing promotions as rapidly as possible, sometimes without consideration to the maturity level of the cadets in question and their suitability for additional leadership. An abnormally high promotion rate is not, in my mind, an absolute quality index of the relative health of a cadet unit. After all, CAPP 52-15 Cadet Staff Handbook, Sec. 1.7, states, "School squadrons might never have a cadet advance beyond the Mitchell Award, which is fine because most middle school students lack the maturity required of cadet officers. But if the squadron strictly followed this handbook's guidelines, they would never have a cadet qualify for cadet commander. Therefore, the school unit commander might appoint several flight commanders, or a "cadet commander," but assign that top cadet flight commander-level responsibilities commensurate with their CAP grade and leadership abilities." If such a unit pushes cadets through as rapidly as ever possible based on "book learning" and scores without consideration for individual maturity and suitability for the grade, the probability of conflicts deepens where they are thrown into leadership waters too deep for their ability. I mention all this in context for my assertion that a least time "below the zone" promotion path is not necessarily always a great thing, and our program elements of record support that.


Some units are "slow burner" units, based sometimes on low expectations, low manning or external support, or low training to execute the missions. I have seen a handful of units with both urban and rural youth whose parents are frankly just happy to have their dependents in a safe activity program and not in gangs. That is fine, but, as has been said here, that is NOT the CAP Cadet Program of record:  we have an expectation not of simple participation as with a church or community youth group, but of rapid advancement through a structured program. It is in the Oath, which should be the wellspring source of inspiration and expectations (along with Core Values) for our cadet units. Bottom line: if your unit is active but your test average is low (verifiable through eServices reports) and you haven't had a reasonable number of cadet SNCOs and Officers lately, you're doing it wrong systematically and your expectations and methods need to be adjusted.


On the "slow burner" individual side, many of us have seen less capable cadets who, frankly, have managed to struggle through one or two promotions per year or less, but we would not dream of separating a cadet who gave it his all. Learning disabilities, family illnesses or divorce, a near total lack of parental support in some cases, lack of finances... the list of complexities in adolescent lives that could be valid reasons for the stops and starts of intermittent progress are many. Our responses to each individual cadets circumstance should therefore be on an individual basis, but should always promote the core Cadet Oath... defining "rapidly" as rapidly as possible given individual circumstances.


Where progressive discipline fits in then, (and a Form 2B action is ultimately a last disciplinary action to write off a failed cadet, NOT an action to fix a developmental or motivational problem) is when you have an adolescent "gaming" you and the system. I have denied cadets slots on field trips, O flight rosters, NESA and National Special Acts due to lack of effort to promote, in a few instances where the cadet only wanted activities out of the program. (Note again, lack of effort for their respective ability, not lack of promotions). I have even gone so far as to contact NHQ/CP to withdraw my permission as CC for a cadet slotted for an activity since he failed to live up to his promise to attend meetings regularly (in lieu of his competing robotics club, and yes, that slot went to some more deserving cadet in another Wing).  When you start digging into the whys of a cadets lack of advancement, you may be stunned at what you find... illiteracy in 10th grade, undiagnosed learning disabilities, etc. etc. Use of the Form 2B process should, in my view, be the nuclear option at the very end of a long program of progressively more involved nurturing and feedback (formally, with the required Form 50 Cadet Leadership Feedback, plus a multiple-witness board of review and direct counseling) up through progressively stiffer disciplinary actions. 


In short, I would recommend the use of multiple Form 50s and involved counseling to correct behavior before using a Form 2B to eliminate forever the chance to salvage a potentially good cadet. When you use a Form 2B, you are declaring failure.


V/R,
Spam

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pretty sure the spirit of the reg is to first ADDRESS the issue, and 2B in the case of "where's c/Jones? He renewed, but hasn't been here in almost a year, with zero progression", or "We've tried and tried to explain, but C/Smith just won't do his testing, even when we tried to make him study/work on it at the unit!".

[Eclipse]

SPAM pretty much nailed it, and I would re-enforce his post by saying that those cadets with little
support at home can still get things done on meeting nights.  Seriously, there are still a lot of cadets who
can't test at home, or won't, and still make good progress, and I would hazard the majority get most of their
academic info only at, and during meetings, this might be an issue in Phase III & IV, especially, but get the pip
and then worry about it.

And I really wish more CCs would consider who they are approving for activity participation with more care.
It's somewhat shocking how many cadets rise to a certain level, especially Mitchell, and then just check out
for anything but outside activities - cadets looking for command and staff jobs at encampments who haven't
even tried a test in a year.  "I was too busy at NESAPJOCHMRSNBBRCLSCOSMOUSE" or "I'm the unit
PAOESCOMMADMINSE and don't have time".  Failure all over the board with those, especially the latter.

Then people wonder why Phase II cadets are running units and encampments.

Pretty sure the spirit of the reg is to first ADDRESS the issue, and 2B in the case of "where's c/Jones? He renewed, but hasn't been here in almost a year, with zero progression", or "We've tried and tried to explain, but C/Smith just won't do his testing, even when we tried to make him study/work on it at the unit!".

+1 - perhaps it's the nature of the internet to assume things not in evidence, but that's always been my stance and assertion.

No one, at least not me, is proposing that cadets, or anyone else, is 2b'ed the first time they are 5 minutes late to a meeting,
but the members should be aware that this is a legitimate and ultimate option when expectations aren't met.

There's really no blanket policy possible for any of this beyond the fully legitimate empty shirts of people who have never and
will never participate, beyond that it is subjective to the respective CC's call, with the caveat that it should never be off the table
for reasons which are outside CAP's mission and mandates.

Perfect example of how these conversations evolve - at the last staff meeting, it came to light that at least 11 senior members
in my AOR have no level 1 recorded, all of who have been members-of-record for at least a calendar year, and some in excess of 18 months.
Interestingly, a couple of them are safety current, which means there is likely an "explanation" somewhere that involves a dog eating
paperwork, and we know a couple are recent dark-siders, but with that said, for those who wrote a check and can't even get L1 done in nearly 2 years, why would CAP even entertain the idea of retaining them?  At a minimum all of those members are, by default, Patron members.

Despite assertions to the contrary, managing the membership is one of a Commander's primary responsibilities, generally delegated to
Personnel, the problem is far too many CC's who simply don't want to be bothered.

The scary thing is we know we're going to find a fair number who have been participating as if they are actually authorized to participate ((*sigh*)).

[SARDOC]

Really???  A cadet doesn't promote twice a year and you want to 2b them?

What's your "real" reason for wanting to terminate them?  Cuz a 2b for not promoting fast enough is just plain bogus.

Honestly, I can see it both ways.  I see the two promotions a year as really strict for cadets who are actually benefitting from the program.  It's gives the local leaders of providing a definition of "progressing satisfactorily".  On the flip side, the cadet program is a leadership program, with the intent of developing young leaders.  If Cadets aren't progressing, they aren't necessarily developing or being put into positions that challenge their leadership abilities.

This program is more than a "Club", it's a Club that has a real mission.

[Garibaldi]

By this logic, I should have been bounced by 1983. Five years, four stripes, the fourth having come in '84 after serious cajoling from not only my peers but my father. I was a very active cadet but it was quite obvious to everyone that I wouldn't ever get the Mitchell. I promoted to C/Amn after about a year, then C/A1C about six months later. Had issues passing promo boards and not possessing the maturity to be an NCO, so that kind of killed my urge to promote. I tried for a 5th stripe but couldn't pass the AE test. So, there is motivation and there is motivation. Like I said, very active, not dead weight but looked sucky on paper.

[Майор Хаткевич]

By this logic, I should have been bounced by 1983. Five years, four stripes, the fourth having come in '84 after serious cajoling from not only my peers but my father. I was a very active cadet but it was quite obvious to everyone that I wouldn't ever get the Mitchell. I promoted to C/Amn after about a year, then C/A1C about six months later. Had issues passing promo boards and not possessing the maturity to be an NCO, so that kind of killed my urge to promote. I tried for a 5th stripe but couldn't pass the AE test. So, there is motivation and there is motivation. Like I said, very active, not dead weight but looked sucky on paper.

You certainly weren't active in the actual cadet program.

[Garibaldi]

By this logic, I should have been bounced by 1983. Five years, four stripes, the fourth having come in '84 after serious cajoling from not only my peers but my father. I was a very active cadet but it was quite obvious to everyone that I wouldn't ever get the Mitchell. I promoted to C/Amn after about a year, then C/A1C about six months later. Had issues passing promo boards and not possessing the maturity to be an NCO, so that kind of killed my urge to promote. I tried for a 5th stripe but couldn't pass the AE test. So, there is motivation and there is motivation. Like I said, very active, not dead weight but looked sucky on paper.

You certainly weren't active in the actual cadet program.

Very active in ES, but since that was pretty much my unit's raison d'etre, it was my default setting. AE, not so much. We had a program, flew an awful lot of o-flights. CP, yep. Drill team, encampments, morale boosting trips to Wright-Patterson, Fort Rucker, and other places in decent driving distance.

Disinterested in promoting does not necessarily equal disinterest in the cadet program. I participated actively in unit activities, obeyed my officers (most of the time), wore my uniform properly, attended meetings regularly (probably should have gotten a perfect attendance award), but advancing my education and training rapidly is up for debate.

[CadetSnuffy]

Another problem with cadets not promoting is when one cadet joins after another cadet and promotes a lot. The first cadet is still a C/Amn after a year, and the second is a C/SSgt. The first cadet asks why the second now has some sort of authority, since he joined first...

Time in CAP has little to do with leadership opportunities. It is difficult to have any authority as an airman, that must be earned. Show you are a leader, that you are dedicated to the program, then you can be given authority. I know too many cadets who have been in the cadet program actively for over two years longer than I have and have not even achieved the Wright Brothers award. The question I ask (silently) is, why are you in CAP for this long and haven't promoted? You should at least give an attempt to promote. I'm not sure I would 2B them, but it gets ridiculous after a while.

[AirAux]

Back in the 60's we were in it for the Khaki's, the cigarettes, and the beer.  And we turned out okay.. 

[deshazo]

I guess this is as good a place to say this as anywhere, although I could pick a few others.

I have been a lurker for quite some time.  I was a cadet a long time ago, and a senior member too.  One year as a senior member.  I came around here to take a look at the modern CAP, and considered rejoining.  After looking around, for maybe a year, this forum has changed my mind for me.

I was reminded why being a cadet, and senior member, was less than fun at times.  I have held back from saying anything for a long time.  What do I care?  I have no skin in the game.  This topic was it for me. 

Want a recruiting and retention tip?  It's people like Eclipse (and others like him), and their attitudes, that will always drive away people.  People will realize they have better things to do than waste time arguing with jerks, because you'll never win.  They're better at being a jerk, and will beat you with it.  Jerks almost always win out in CAP because less-jerky people who have lives outside of CAP, will move on, or never join.

One problem is people like him will never see it.  Maybe when they're going towards the light, they'll get it.

Now I've given you something to talk about other than uniforms, ribbons, decorations, and sniping each other.

[SarDragon]

Two things -

This forum isn't really representative of CAP as a whole. You're seeing a group of the more involved, vocal members.

The jerk to non-jerk ratio is lower than you might think. Check out a local unit and see what you will really be dealing with on a week-to-week basis. It will likely be something different from CAP Talk.

[Eclipse]

One year as a senior member. t's people like Eclipse (and others like him), and their attitudes, that will always drive away people.  People will realize they have better things to do than waste time arguing with jerks, because you'll never win.  They're better at being a jerk, and will beat you with it.  Jerks almost always win out in CAP because less-jerky people who have lives outside of CAP, will move on, or never join.

So, you can't make an argument, or have any relevent experience to base a counterpoint, you just don't like the fact that
people are discussing things on a discussion forum?

Since this is likely a drive-by and we won't hear from you again, the odds of a response are fairly low, but if you want to be taken seriously,
perhaps disagreeing on the points made, versus just making a personal attack will assist your credibility.

As SarDragon indicated, CAPTalk ≠ CAP, discussions like these rarely occur in meetings or activity environments,
which is part of the problem, because absent forums like this, a lot of the issues raised ad nauseum would be lost in the
"Every Thing Is Awesome" haze.

So make a point, or disagree on an issue, but if you just don't like it when people speak directly and don't back down when
they have relevent experience and data to back up their opinions, then perhaps you would be better served participating elsewhere.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yea, I ran into this Eclipse jerk IRL once. He was such a massive Jerk that I've spent 10+ years in CAP than I otherwise would have...

[Garibaldi]

Eclipse a jerk? Nah. Just has some very strong and well-reasoned arguments backed up by years of experience.
IMO, people who have opinions and are vocal about them, who do NOT have the experience to back their arguments, are usually the jerks. Like...oh, I don't know...college kids who take 1 poli-sci course and immediately know how to fix the country, then spend the rest of their college career protesting and activisting all over the place instead of taking a good look around to see what the real issues are.

Sound somewhat familiar?

[NIN]

Back in the 60's we were in it for the Khaki's, the cigarettes, and the beer.  And we turned out okay..

Well, mostly okay...

[Garibaldi]

Back in the 60's we were in it for the Khaki's, the cigarettes, and the beer.  And we turned out okay..

Well, mostly okay...

That will be our entry in CAP Cadet History: Mostly Okay.

[Panzerbjorn]

Exactly what does it mean to run a cadet program like a rec center?  I'd be very interested to know that.

My squadron has a very successful DDR program, character development, produced last year's Regional Color Guard champions, a highly successful CyberPatriot team that has grown into two teams, a cadre of enthusiastic Rangers, a full cadet ground team, and produces more Green Light NCSA cadets than any other squadron in the Wing.  It never crosses our minds to warn cadets that if they don't promote twice a year, they're in danger of being 2B'd.  We maintain the attitude that we provide a program that positively influences the lives of our cadets.  So.....is that a rec center attitude?

Are we providing an alternate activity to drive-by shootings?  I would tend to think that our cadets aren't at-risk youth.  There's a leadership academy just down the road from us that their entire student population above the age of 12 are CAP cadets.  So, if they don't earn two promotions a year, they're in danger of being expelled from the academy?  My hunch tends to think not.

If the cadet isn't active and really have no interest in the program, yes, by all means have a chat with them and let them know that they may be happier being somewhere else than in CAP.  But if the cadet is active, happily participating, and contributing to the program, but isn't promoting, why would you want to even consider 2Bing them?

If the cadet is trying, and just not passing their tests, then truthfully, it's a failure on your part for not helping them succeed.  If you have a cadet that wants to participate in the program and activities, but not interested in promoting, then let them know that what activities they can participate in widen as they promote and more doors open.

2B as a last resort, and on a case by case basis.

[Майор Хаткевич]

...and advance my education and training rapidly...

There's a reason eservices has a report for "no promotions in 120 days".

Everything you listed is great, but it's supposed to be built on the actual CADET PROGRAM, which consists of the AE and Leadership books, PT, CD as the basic baseline.