Proving Conference Attendance

[Майор Хаткевич]

^ Participated fully as a cadet, wing decides to "clarify" whether cadets get Senior PD credit for conferences,
NHQ decides out of nowhere all of a sudden they don't, after years of using the Senior PD credit as the carrot to
get cadets to conferences, and despite the fact that the regs make no distinction.

Definitely going to follow this one up.

Did you get an answer yet?

No....but I think no one is working this week.

I got a response

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center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.

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Subject
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Conference Attendance as a Cadet Count Toward Level III?


Discussion Thread
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Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 01/05/2015 06:03 AM
Conference attendance is credited only if completed as a senior member. The intent is for the member to grow in their senior member professional development and their staff skills sets. Cadet Attendance does not achieve this goal.

Bobbie-Jean Tourville
HQ CAP Chief of Professional Development
(O) 877.227.9142 ext. 405
(O) 334.953.7748 ext. 405

So...now I start my campaign to get NHQ to rewrite the reg to actually say this.

MSgt,


Do a follow up asking a reg cite. I find that to be the best way to get it addressed. Had some success about a year ago.

[lordmonar]

This is what I sent.

You recently fielded a Knowledge Base question about conference attendance by cadets.

I suggest that an emergency change to CAPR 50-17 be issued as the policy you stated contradicts the wording in CAPR 50-17 Para 5-1.d.

"d. Attend two wing, region, or national conferences. These conferences afford CAP members a broad view of the CAP corporation's organization and expose them to the issues confronting CAP. Attendance at a region/wing aerospace education conference can also be credited for one conference attendance. Conferences attended prior to entry into Level III count toward fulfillment of this requirement."

As recently as last year we used the argument "this can count towards your Level III requirements" as a way of encouraging cadets to attend both the national conference and the wing conference here in Nevada.

I am not arguing the reasoning behind not recognizing cadet attendance....but we need to be clear in the regulation as it is not clear out in the field that cadet attendance does not count and this "rule" is not being applied constantly across the country.

Thank your for your time,
PATRICK M. HARRIS, MSgt CAP
Professional Development NCO
Nellis Composite Squadron

[a2capt]

Being able to detect a tire is flat doesn't mean you know how to repair it, nor does it become your instant responsibility just because you point it out.

[RiverAux]

There is absolutely no reason that a Wing conference couldn't have seminars aimed at cadets and to give them something to do other than CAC.  If wings are only looking at conferences as events for seniors, I'd say they aren't doing it right. 

[Eclipse]

Well that's clearly what the NHQ/PDO is saying.

[Майор Хаткевич]

There is absolutely no reason that a Wing conference couldn't have seminars aimed at cadets and to give them something to do other than CAC.  If wings are only looking at conferences as events for seniors, I'd say they aren't doing it right.

If the goal of the conferences is to advance the PD of SMs, then spending resources on seminars aimed at cadets is a waste of efforts, and so is their time spent there during seminars that are not. I suppose the goal of ALL classes should then be related to squadron duties, and development material. So no more AE or ES or CP seminars, unless it's for the AEO, ESO, Cadet Programs tracked officer. Otherwise, what's the benefit? Perhaps NHQ should publish a conference guide, much like they do for encampments.

[RiverAux]

If the goal of the conferences is to advance the PD of SMs,

Where is that stated?

Well that's clearly what the NHQ/PDO is saying.

Not really.  They made a pretty narrow statement specifically in regards to senior member training requirements.  Heck, one might argue that they're assuming that cadets attending a wing conference may have been attending cadet-specific activities and therefore wouldn't have gained the experience relevant to senior members. 

[Ned]

If the goal of the conferences is to advance the PD of SMs, [. . .]

That would certainly follow, but your premise is incorrect.  CAP had conferences long before such things were required as a part of our PD program.  Heck, we had conferences before we even had a "PD program."

The point of conferences is primarily to improve the professional competence of members, whether that occurs inside our outside of a given member's speciality track.  Add a generous dose of morale-enhancing processes like awards, banquets, and informal networking and you have an activity with sufficient value that literally thousands of members attend yearly.

I suspect the discussion about cadets' attendance counting for advanced senior PD has more to do with currency than anything else.  Reasonable minds can differ about whether a 15 year-old cadet attending their wing conference adds value to their senior member PD training for Level III 10-15 years later.

(Of course, the same question can be asked of a SMWOG attending in 1980 and seeking to use the credit 10-15 years later.)

This sounds like one of those "the PD reg writers simply weren't thinking about cadets when the regulation was drafted and approved years ago" things.  But now that the NHQ PD expert, Bobbi Tourville is aware of the issue, I place great faith in her ability to sort things out in a fair and consistent matter.

If for no other reason that Bobbi is a Spaatz recipient, and thus highly competent in both CP & PD. 

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Officer

[lordmonar]

Perhaps NHQ should publish a conference guide, much like they do for encampments.

Something else I have been asking for.

[DoubleSecret]

It never has become "policy" - this is an SME making an interpretation outside the regulation process.

Amen.  When I was active duty, we had a SME trying to burn someone for failing to comply with an interpretation.  I pointed out that the UCMJ had no article covering "failure to obey a rumor" and the matter was dropped.

[JeffDG]

Perhaps NHQ should publish a conference guide, much like they do for encampments.

Here's the thing...they have...

http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/commander-and-staff-resources/

CAPP 4 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P004_4C1DDBA9A2DA7.pdf)

However in their infinite wisdom, they haven't told anyone about it.

[Eclipse]

^ Two photos revolving around meals, an illegible Powerpoint slide and an empty room.

Yep, Wing Conference.

[lordmonar]

Perhaps NHQ should publish a conference guide, much like they do for encampments.

Here's the thing...they have...

http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/commander-and-staff-resources/

CAPP 4 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P004_4C1DDBA9A2DA7.pdf)

However in their infinite wisdom, they haven't told anyone about it.

No where in that document does it say "this is a conference" as opposed to a staff meeting, staff development weekend, general get together.   No where is there a definition for a wing PDO to determine if the national AE Conference Counts, or if CAWG's Cadet Conference counts.   

[MSG Mac]

The question of cadets getting credit for Conference attendence should be addressed to CP (Mr. Curt LeFond) for adding a requirement that a Phase III and IV cadets attend a conference to complete each phase. The cadets get some of the PD credit when they are transition to SM and have Mitchell, Earhardt, Eaker, or Spaatz Awards.

[lordmonar]

The question of cadets getting credit for Conference attendence should be addressed to CP (Mr. Curt LeFond) for adding a requirement that a Phase III and IV cadets attend a conference to complete each phase. The cadets get some of the PD credit when they are transition to SM and have Mitchell, Earhardt, Eaker, or Spaatz Awards.

Yep....see chapter 9 of 50-17. 

[JeffDG]

Perhaps NHQ should publish a conference guide, much like they do for encampments.

Here's the thing...they have...

http://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/commander-and-staff-resources/

CAPP 4 (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P004_4C1DDBA9A2DA7.pdf)

However in their infinite wisdom, they haven't told anyone about it.

No where in that document does it say "this is a conference" as opposed to a staff meeting, staff development weekend, general get together.   No where is there a definition for a wing PDO to determine if the national AE Conference Counts, or if CAWG's Cadet Conference counts.

You mean, other than the title page?



[attachment deleted by admin]

[lordmonar]

Yes....other then it saying "building a conference" it does not actually say what a conference is.

52-16 and CAPP 52-24 clearly defines what is an encampment in greater detail then just saying how to organize one.  It spells out specifily contact hours, specific content, A mission statement, a vision statement and it details what "attendance" means.

So.....I'm back to my issue as a PDO....what is in fact a conference and what is not.   Why does a wing or region AE conference count...but not a wing cadet conference?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Yes....other then it saying "building a conference" it does not actually say what a conference is.

52-16 and CAPP 52-24 clearly defines what is an encampment in greater detail then just saying how to organize one.  It spells out specifily contact hours, specific content, A mission statement, a vision statement and it details what "attendance" means.

So.....I'm back to my issue as a PDO....what is in fact a conference and what is not.   Why does a wing or region AE conference count...but not a wing cadet conference?

AE consolation prize for not being a true third leg of CAP?

[Ned]

Pat and others:

As you have all correctly pointed out, we do not have a doctrinal definition of "conference."   

I think we can agree that a more formalized definition would be helpful in the PD context.  (As in, "what counts toward meeting existing PD requirements that require conference attendance.")


So let's take advantage of the experience and wisdom here and attempt to draft a little doctrine.

How should we define a "conference" for PD purposes?

Some initial considerations:

1.  Do all three missions have to be represented?  (Would a wing "operations" or "cadet" conference count?)

2.  Should there be a minimum number of hours of instruction / interaction required?  (6?  10?)

3.  Must if be open to all members?  Just members of the wing/region?  Would an "invitees only" conference count?

4.  How is a conference different from a commanders call or meeting?  Could an encampment be considered a conference? (It has a lot of members and a lot of instruction . . . )  How about the wing model rocketry weekend?

5.  Is there a minimum size?  (Is a conference a conference if only 10 people show up?)

6.  What is required beyond some sort of instruction?  Must there be a "general meeting?"  If so, what must that consist of?


For extra credit:

a.  Should we write rules so restrictive that wings could not innovate and be creative with their conferences?

b.  Once we define what a conference is, for PD purposes, how should we define "attendance?"  80% of available seminars attended?  Some sort of evaluation metric for knowledge gained?


If we can come up with something here, I'd be happy to take it to the appropriate folks for action.

[lordmonar]

Ned,

The first question is what is the PD objective of a "conference" in the first place.

Why do we want our Level III member to attend at least two.

Once we have a clear idea of this.....we can then write the definition of what events meet that PD objective.