Goodbye to an NCO

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It is very unfortunate that this Sergeant's experience was lost to your unit.

I only served in one unit with a CAP NCO - he had been a former E-7 SFC (ret) Drill Sergeant in the Army.  He had no compunctions whatsoever about wearing AF stripes.  He was great with the cadets - as a teacher and mentor most of the time, and as a disciplinarian when needed.

Of course my position on this is well-known, but the push for CAP to be "distinctive" from the AF is getting to ridiculous levels.  If we're supposed to be that bloody "distinctive," then we should not be wearing their uniform, period, instead of making all these alterations to it and severely limiting who can wear it.  However, if we are ever kicked out/phased out/whatever of the USAF uniform, we should be given free reign to have a member-designed uniform, submit it to the USAF for approval, and be DONE, and I mean DONE, with it.  We already have servicable utility uniforms that the USAF does not wear, though the blue flight suit has USAF connections.  The only thing to be done is to come up with a better alternative to the grey/white/blazer...and I remember seeing Photoshopped alternatives here on CT following the demise of the CSU that looked way, way better than the quasi-Realtor/mall cop uniform currently extant.

As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.  I remember at an airshow in daylight on a sunny day, while wearing BDU's with CIVIL AIR PATROL plainly readable over my pocket.  I had to calm the nerves of a young Army Specialist who was afraid he hadn't rendered me a salute quickly enough.

The NSCC (among others) does not treat its members the way the AF treats us about beating us with the "distinctiveness" stick (or we beat ourselves with it).  Their cap device, shoulder flash and sleeve device above their "piston rings" is all the Navy requires of them.

I know, I know, I know: WE'RE NOT THEM.  However, they have NO Auxiliary status to the Navy, and yet they are not "policed" for their uniforms the way we are.

[Storm Chaser]

As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.

Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.

[a2capt]

If the service to the community really meant anything, the insignia would be a moot point.

To me, looks like burnout looking for a convenient reason to cite.

More commendable to me is the example that you hear of where the O6 or E6+ joins CAP and says, "No, I want to start at the bottom like everyone else", and that's not to say there's anything wrong at all with someone else who applies their RM earned grade either.

To each his own.

I've had a bit of political challenges, a few times running around internally saying "screw this", etc. But in the end, you know what keeps me going? The ability to serve the community and help tomorrows leaders get their start.

The payback we get for that? To be able to experience some of the activities we supervise, participate in others, earn awards, get recognition, advance in grade, under our own paramilitary structure.

If they were to take any of that away, sure, I might snit and snivel about it, but I'll get over it and realize that the more important thing is the cadets who come back and thank you for the ways you helped them over the years.

[PHall]

As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.

Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.

Oh come on, you and I both  know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.

[Eclipse]

It might be interesting to know what the good SMSgt would say to one of his Airmen if they
chose not to reenlist because they didn't like the ABUs, not to mention the message this sent to
all of the cadets he was "mentoring".

[Storm Chaser]

As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.

Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.

Oh come on, you and I both  know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.

Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Nonetheless, I occasionally wonder what criteria whoever-it-is-that-determines-these-things uses to determine "sufficiently different."

The "cannot be confused with the Armed Forces" canard is also illogical - the G/W uniform looks very similar to West Point cadets (except they have an authorised hat).

I know...I was in the military...and the most common answer is "because they can,"  "RHIP," etc.  Why did Tony McPeak come up with his short-lived uniform design?  Because he could.  Why did Ron Fogleman alter it.  Because he could.

WIWITCGAux, uniforms weren't even an issue.  I know - they're not us.

Same for the NSCC - they're not us.

That's an "easy out."

I have had a lot of Socratic questioning training in university (thankfully I didn't have it before BMT all those years ago! ) which, I will admit, does annoy at times, for those who are easily able to accept the "it is because it is" theorem.

Nonetheless, I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with SECAF/CSAF/CC CAP-USAF and ask them these questions, respectfully of course.

[Chappie]

He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.

I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?
<snip>

I know of a retired 2-star who wears the silver oak leaves on his CAP apparel.  Maj Gen (USAF, Ret) George Harrison (GAWG - active in glider program/Provost of NSC) when wearing the CAP Blazer Combo, is a Lt Col.  But when wearing his USAF Mess Dress - 2 stars.  But we still call him "General" even in his CAP uniform.  I have the highest respect and regard for him.

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/106832/major-general-george-b-harrison.aspx

[lordmonar]

As a former AF NCO I couldn't agree with him more! To allow prior-service folks to join CAP, be recognized for their service by being eligible to retain their retired grade.... but then to alter the insignia of that grade for one class of members only ( I've never seen any duscussion about altering the Officers insignia!) is disrespectful of the accomplishments of the NCO !

If you feel that NCO insignia need to be altered.... then why is there not a similar need to alter the Officers insignia!

The officer insignia was altered way back in the Barry Board days.....
Also please note that one day non-prior service members will be wearing NCO stripes.

[lordmonar]

I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?

I know one O-7 who wore Lt Col for a long time before he got tagged to king a wing.

[Shuman 14]

As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.

Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.

Oh come on, you and I both  know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.

Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.

OK, got it, but does the Air Force solicite any input from the CAP?

Meaning if a wild-eyed Captain in the USAF puts the package together and decides to 2LT, 1LT and CPT to 1, 2, and 3 Blue Triangles; and MAJ, LTC and COL to 1, 2 and 3 Red Triangles; and BG and MG to 1 and 2 yellow Triangles CAP would just have to live with it? 

The point being, I think/believe most CAP members have no issue with the Tri-Prop replacing the Star on the chevrons (in fact that change makes sense to me), but the addition of the letters "CAP" just seems goofy and redundant.

Much the same as adding "CAP" to the already different Grey epaulette slides.

The question is... was that a CAP input or something the USAF decided on without or against CAP's input?

[PHall]

As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.

Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.

Oh come on, you and I both  know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.

Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.

OK, got it, but does the Air Force solicite any input from the CAP?

Meaning if a wild-eyed Captain in the USAF puts the package together and decides to 2LT, 1LT and CPT to 1, 2, and 3 Blue Triangles; and MAJ, LTC and COL to 1, 2 and 3 Red Triangles; and BG and MG to 1 and 2 yellow Triangles CAP would just have to live with it? 

The point being, I think/believe most CAP members have no issue with the Tri-Prop replacing the Star on the chevrons (in fact that change makes sense to me), but the addition of the letters "CAP" just seems goofy and redundant.

Much the same as adding "CAP" to the already different Grey epaulette slides.

The question is... was that a CAP input or something the USAF decided on without or against CAP's input?

It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.

[Private Investigator]

He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.

I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?

As an Air Force Major I don't feel disrespected for having to wear yellow (almost orange) oak leaves on ultramarine blue background or for having to wear gray epaulets with "CAP" embroidered above the grade insignia. Why should it be different for an NCO?

While everyone has the right to leave CAP for any reason, leaving because of a change in grade insignia design, one which was approved by the USAF, is just silly. My only guess is that this SMSgt must have had other reasons for leaving the organization and just chose this one to vocalize his displeasure with CAP.

Very good points sir   :clap:

[Private Investigator]

He believes that the new design is dis-respectful of all the work he put in to earn his stripes and will not serve in an organization that is so disrespectful of the U.S. Air Force and its insignia.

I wonder how many former or current Army and Marine Corps NCOs and Navy and Coast Guard Petty Officers have felt "disrespected" for having to wear the Air Force NCO stripes instead of their hard-earned service stripes. How about O-6 Colonels/Captains who had to give up their hard-earned eagles for silver oak leaves?
<snip>

I know of a retired 2-star who wears the silver oak leaves on his CAP apparel.  Maj Gen (USAF, Ret) George Harrison (GAWG - active in glider program/Provost of NSC) when wearing the CAP Blazer Combo, is a Lt Col.  But when wearing his USAF Mess Dress - 2 stars.  But we still call him "General" even in his CAP uniform.  I have the highest respect and regard for him.

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/106832/major-general-george-b-harrison.aspx

I have heard of him by reputation only. But I am impressed.   

[kwe1009]

The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.  For those that do know of CAP even fewer know there are people that wear NCO rank.  I am a SMSgt with almost 29 years in and have been in CAP for just over 2 years.  I was familiar with CAP and even judged some drill competitions and taught drill to cadets over 20 years ago but the first time I heard of CAP NCOs was when I signed up for CAP in 2012.  I was asked if I wanted to keep my enlisted rank and I said, "what is the point?"  I didn't get a good answer from my fellow prior enlisted squadron commander so I took the 1st Lt bars.

I am extremely proud of being one of the few to make it to E-8 and I'm hoping for one more promotion before I retire but that is my Air Force life.  I still don't see the point of NCO ranks in CAP and I think it is a little confusing to the cadets.  I am in a cadet squadron and my first priority is being a mentor and roll model to them. No disrespect to my fellow NCOs who choose to continue to wear the stripes they earned but I look at this like the many military officers that have added to this thread in that this is a non-issue.

If a former Major General can "lower" himself to wear CAP Lt Col rank and be "outranked" by a wing or region commander who never served a single day in the military, then I can put on CAP officer rank (even LT  )

[Shuman 14]

It's the Air Force's call as per AFI 36-2701.

And I got that, but that's not answering the question I'm really asking.

Did the USAF create/design the CAP NCO chevrons...

or
... did CAP submit a design and the USAF approved it.

I'm trying to figure out if the insertion of the letters "CAP" was CAP's idea that the USAF just approved or something that USAF dictated from the start. 

Personally I kinda like the Tri-Prop replacing the Star, I still think it would look better if the prop was red and the circle white, but overall not a bad design.

Adding the "CAP" makes it look Mickey Mouse.

They should ditch that and just return to the silver disced "CAP" on the lapels of the uniform coat and call it a day.

Same with the Officers ditch the "US" and go back to a "CAP" on the lapels.

BTW, got a link to AFI 36-2701?

I went to the USAF e-Publishing website, http://www.e-publishing.af.mil , and there is no AFI 36-2701 listed.

No pubs between AFI 36-2650 and AFI 36-2706.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.

And who owns the problem with that?  I stand on my contention that it is not ours.  The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are.  Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.

I know others have said it's our job to "sell ourselves" to the Air Force.  That would only be apropos if we were a new organisation looking to affiliate with the AF.  We are not.  Hier stehe ich.

In my experience, I have got more recognition (as in "knowing who you are") from the Army, especially the National Guard.  Sometimes a salute, sometimes a "hey, how ya doin, Captain," sometimes just a friendly handshake.  All have equal status with me.  Most Airmen barely acknowledge my presence.

It wasn't always that way.  When I first joined in '93, I was coming out of a MCSS and met an Air Force Reserve Major or Lt Col.  I saluted and greeted him.  He returned my salute, stopped, shook my hand and said "thanks for all you do to support the Air Force's mission."

I wish I could have recorded that moment.

I still get treated well (as in acknowledged) by AF officers and NCO's.  As to anyone below E-6...again, rarely an acknowledgement of my presence.

[Storm Chaser]

As I have said, the "low-light/at-a-distance" is illlogically unenforceable, because it is so widely variable depending on one's eyesight and/or familiarity with CAP and/or Air Force insignia.

Fortunately for you and me, this is not for us to interpret, but for some Air Force colonel (or general for that matter) to determine.

Oh come on, you and I both  know it's not some Colonel who makes these decisions. It's the Captain or Major stuck doing their Headquarters tour who put the package together who made these decisions. The Colonel may sign off on the package but that's about it.

Maybe so, but my point still stands. The average CAP member doesn't need to be concerned with what constitutes "sufficiently different" or "at a distance and in low-light conditions" (AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.4), as this is something the Air Force has to determine, not us.

OK, got it, but does the Air Force solicite any input from the CAP?

Meaning if a wild-eyed Captain in the USAF puts the package together and decides to 2LT, 1LT and CPT to 1, 2, and 3 Blue Triangles; and MAJ, LTC and COL to 1, 2 and 3 Red Triangles; and BG and MG to 1 and 2 yellow Triangles CAP would just have to live with it? 

The point being, I think/believe most CAP members have no issue with the Tri-Prop replacing the Star on the chevrons (in fact that change makes sense to me), but the addition of the letters "CAP" just seems goofy and redundant.

Much the same as adding "CAP" to the already different Grey epaulette slides.

The question is... was that a CAP input or something the USAF decided on without or against CAP's input?

I suggest you submit these questions through your chain of command. While I would venture to say that CAP-USAF gets feedback from the CAP/CC and others at the appropriate level, all we can provide here are assumptions and conjectures. If it's that important to you, then get an official answer through official channels.

[Storm Chaser]

The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.

And who owns the problem with that?  I stand on my contention that it is not ours.  The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are.  Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.

As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.

[Shuman 14]

The general population of the Air Force (and any other military branch has little or no knowledge of CAP's existence.

And who owns the problem with that?  I stand on my contention that it is not ours.  The Air Force has virtually NO education of its members as to who we are.  Even the barest education would help avoid numerous understandings.

As someone who has served in both, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. While it would be nice for every Airman in the Air Force to know about CAP, it's not the Air Force's job to educate each and everyone of their members, but ours to let them know we're here, available and ready to help. We're the Auxiliary, not the other way around.

But the USAF should provide CAP the opportunity to present that training/education to the force at large.

I'm pretty sure CAP already has a stock 30 minute presentation on the "mission, purpose and history of the Civil Air Patrol"; so would it be asking too much for the Air Force to block 30-45 minutes in every Basic Military Training class for a CAP Officer/NCO to come in and present this brief orientation?