New NCO Promotion Regulations

[Panache]

As much as I am against the implementation of the NCO program in CAP, I do believe completely that it should in no way affect a persons decision to join, quite or not join at all. 

Roles will all overlap regardless of ranks worn.  A Lt Col at a mission base will still make coffee runs for the SSGT working in the Comm shop.  A SSgt will still call his buddy who is a Major "Fred" and in the end, Captain Smith will still empty the trash as MSgt Jones holds the lid of the dumpster open for him.  And when we all meet at Burger King for the after party, none of it matters anyway.

You're absolutely right, which is why I don't understand why I got flamed for suggesting that CAP convert everyone to Warrant Officers and only have temporary commissioned rank for those currently holding command positions.

Education level plus time in CAP Service equals to WO1 - CW5. You show progression via your permanent Warrant Grade and the ones actually in charge hold rank so you don't have the visual confusion (to the public at large) of a CPT directing a flock of LTCs.

Well, considering that the Air Force and CAP have not had Warrant Officers since the 1980's, it might be a tough sell to get the Air Forces approval on this.

That would certainly help with our "distinctiveness", would it?

[PHall]

As much as I am against the implementation of the NCO program in CAP, I do believe completely that it should in no way affect a persons decision to join, quite or not join at all. 

Roles will all overlap regardless of ranks worn.  A Lt Col at a mission base will still make coffee runs for the SSGT working in the Comm shop.  A SSgt will still call his buddy who is a Major "Fred" and in the end, Captain Smith will still empty the trash as MSgt Jones holds the lid of the dumpster open for him.  And when we all meet at Burger King for the after party, none of it matters anyway.

You're absolutely right, which is why I don't understand why I got flamed for suggesting that CAP convert everyone to Warrant Officers and only have temporary commissioned rank for those currently holding command positions.

Education level plus time in CAP Service equals to WO1 - CW5. You show progression via your permanent Warrant Grade and the ones actually in charge hold rank so you don't have the visual confusion (to the public at large) of a CPT directing a flock of LTCs.

Well, considering that the Air Force and CAP have not had Warrant Officers since the 1980's, it might be a tough sell to get the Air Forces approval on this.

That would certainly help with our "distinctiveness", would it?

Sure, just get Air Force approval for us to use them. I'll wait...

[Bobble]

While I'm still a member of Post 16, I had to let the SAA position go, no time and haven't attended a meeting in many moons for the same reason.

As a courtesy you might want to let them know, since they have you listed as the SAA for 2014/2015 on their webpage.

Most on my online posts are made while working non-patrol duties (i.e. sitting in a Gate House or operating dispatch) where I can multi-task when things are slow.

Here's hoping your Supervisor(s) doesn't/don't find this thread and speed things up for you at work.  Multi-tasking while clocked in on the job typically means that those multiple tasks are work-related, at least in my experience.

Best of luck.

[Shuman 14]

While I'm still a member of Post 16, I had to let the SAA position go, no time and haven't attended a meeting in many moons for the same reason.

As a courtesy you might want to let them know, since they have you listed as the SAA for 2014/2015 on their webpage.

I'll shoot the webmaster an e-mail and tell him to update the webpage.

Most on my online posts are made while working non-patrol duties (i.e. sitting in a Gate House or operating dispatch) where I can multi-task when things are slow.

Here's hoping your Supervisor(s) doesn't/don't find this thread and speed things up for you at work.  Multi-tasking while clocked in on the job typically means that those multiple tasks are work-related, at least in my experience.

You mean the supervisor that sits and watches Youtube movies when he's doing the same non-patrol duties... that supervisor? 

Best of luck.

[PHall]

While I'm still a member of Post 16, I had to let the SAA position go, no time and haven't attended a meeting in many moons for the same reason.

As a courtesy you might want to let them know, since they have you listed as the SAA for 2014/2015 on their webpage.

I'll shoot the webmaster an e-mail and tell him to update the webpage.

Most on my online posts are made while working non-patrol duties (i.e. sitting in a Gate House or operating dispatch) where I can multi-task when things are slow.

Here's hoping your Supervisor(s) doesn't/don't find this thread and speed things up for you at work.  Multi-tasking while clocked in on the job typically means that those multiple tasks are work-related, at least in my experience.

You mean the supervisor that sits and watches Youtube movies when he's doing the same non-patrol duties... that supervisor? 

Best of luck.

Just remember, he's the Supervisor, you're not.

[Shuman 14]

While I'm still a member of Post 16, I had to let the SAA position go, no time and haven't attended a meeting in many moons for the same reason.

As a courtesy you might want to let them know, since they have you listed as the SAA for 2014/2015 on their webpage.

I'll shoot the webmaster an e-mail and tell him to update the webpage.

Most on my online posts are made while working non-patrol duties (i.e. sitting in a Gate House or operating dispatch) where I can multi-task when things are slow.

Here's hoping your Supervisor(s) doesn't/don't find this thread and speed things up for you at work.  Multi-tasking while clocked in on the job typically means that those multiple tasks are work-related, at least in my experience.

You mean the supervisor that sits and watches Youtube movies when he's doing the same non-patrol duties... that supervisor? 

Best of luck.

Just remember, he's the Supervisor, you're not.

very good point. 

[Private Investigator]

My first child was born on the 12th of last month so ..

Congratulations. In Chinese astrology she is a horse. That is a good thing.  :clap:

As a fellow Horse (1990), I agree!

What's the cut off date? I'm on the 9th and I was told I was a Dog.

It depends on what year your were born. Google Chinese astrology and usually one website has a program where you put in your DOB and it tells you. 

[Panache]

Year of the Pig.  Oink, oink.

[Flying Pig]

Year of the Pig.  Oink, oink.

I knew my time would come!! All hail the PIG!

[Has been]

Sir

There is a lot of confusion about DOD NCOs comming in to CAP and keeping their grade. According to the NCO Committee training slides shown  in Dec 2014 you can have as many  DOD MSgt, SMSgt and CMSge as you can recruit into a unit, just like DOD LTCs. But you can have only one  in the "promotable duty assignment" at a time (working on Time in Grade, Training Requirments and duty assignment/service requirement). When they get promoted to CMSgt, you take them out of the slot and move in another MSgt or SMSgt. Over time a unit could end up with several CMSgts in a unit.

As for the NCO promotion boards, you have a separate one because the NCOs developing the program wanted it that way. They also feel they know best what qualifications and qualities an NCO of a particular grade should have. By the way the regulations also say that units should have a promotion board for officers too. I can recommend that. The easy part of the promotion board is the time in grade and PD requirements. The hard part is judging the qualities and experence they should have for each promotion. I have an opinion on that but that is a separate thread.

Reguarding the 6 months for promotion, all senior members, new members, former military, etc have to wait 6 months for thier first promotion. 

The two tierd system was developed by the former DOD NCOs developing the program. Two things to think about: 1, this is a new program that will develop and evolve over time. 2, Think about the logisitcs of the promotion board as written. Will it be able to sustain itself or will it be too hard to make work?

As noted elsewhere it is a long term project. Shortly their will be briefings at wing/region conferences on NCO programs/promotions. I would go and become the knowlegeable one in your area.

[Eclipse]

Reguarding the 6 months for promotion, all senior members, new members, former military, etc have to wait 6 months for thier first promotion.

35-5 Disagrees with you.

[Simplex]

(Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.)




Back in the day the only way to make Corporal was to get busted down from SGT E-5!

[flyboy53]

(Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.)

Back in the day the only way to make Corporal was to get busted down from SGT E-5!

Really? I'm pretty sure that it has more to do with a unit's T/O. But what happens in the Army doesn't mean that it will be accepted by the Air Force where the idea of an E-4 is not really to be an NCO.

The Air Force did away with warrant officers decades ago because it wanted a three tier NCO program of airmen/trainees, NCO supervisors, and Top Three managers. In the Air Force an E-4 is pretty much considered a technician with limited leadership responsibilities. Traditional E-5 to E-6 NCOs are the supervisors and the E-7 to E-9 Top Three Tier are supposed to be managers. It was the implementation of The Senior and Chief Master Sergeant ranks that ended the need for warrant officers because the Top 3 ranks were expected to be able to do the same duties.

Remember that the CAP NCO program -- whether you like it or not -- is basically a test project. I'm a little out of touch with the PME and promotion requirements of AF NCOs, but during my tour in the Air Force, I saw/witnessed/participated in many of the changes that ultimately evolved the Air Force NCO program into what it is today and if done right; meaning keep the CAP to the standard I had to meet in the Air Force, it will certainly be a challenge.

In 1979, I had been promoted to senior airman below the zone -- with only 23 months in service and starting as a E-1 slick sleeve. When I was appointed a sergeant, I had completed what was then called PME Zero or the NCO orientation course in residence and the NCO supervisors course through correspondence and had to be formally recommended for NCO status. There were some other promotion requirements just to put on the "hard stripe" but I don't really remember everything -- just the very formal appointment ceremony where I was administered an oath for my new rank and given my stripes by the wing commander.

It would be exciting to see if CAP could expand the NCO program into the airman structure. It could revolutionize the entire senior member training program but I believe it would be too complex to implement. Also, I personally don't believe that we need warrant officers or flight officers. The people that fall into that category should really be some sort of officer trainees and exposed to their own sort of ramped up program to prepare them for the leadership roles that are so desperately needed in our organization.

[lordmonar]

Flyboy....I'm working on that white paper right now. 

[Storm Chaser]

(Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.)

Back in the day the only way to make Corporal was to get busted down from SGT E-5!

In the Air Force an E-4 is pretty much considered a technician with limited leadership responsibilities.

Interesting. Until not long ago, Air Force Senior Airmen (E-4) could be Military Training Instructors, Technical School Instructors, Military Training Leaders, Recruiters and Supervisors (after attending Airman Leadership School), to name a few. I would argue that E-4s in the Air Force can hold greater responsibilities than in other services such as the Army.

[Storm Chaser]

Flyboy....I'm working on that white paper right now.

Do you see CAP evolving in a way where new members would normally join the organization as enlisted members? It would take decades for CAP to move from an officer-centric to an enlisted-centric membership.

[lordmonar]

Flyboy....I'm working on that white paper right now.

Do you see CAP evolving in a way where new members would normally join the organization as enlisted members? It would take decades for CAP to move from an officer-centric to an enlisted-centric membership.

No...it would take 10 minutes to shift the organisation.....it would take decades for all the old grandfathered members to retire/quite/die.  But yes.....this is a long life program I have in mind.   

[Private Investigator]

(Corporal - (Army and Marine Corps) - NCO.  However, I could not tell you the last time I actually saw an Army Corporal.)




Back in the day the only way to make Corporal was to get busted down from SGT E-5!

1982 and yes.   

[Garibaldi]

I envision a program where folks like me, in an operational field, trade in the bottlecaps for stripes. I'll be happy with SSGT stripes, where I left off in the cadet side.

[Eclipse]

And this changes or enhances your CAP experience, abilities, or value how, exactly?