Discrimination or Not? Excluded after asking for policy changes to be published

[PilotMan]

Hi all, 

Okay..... here's what happened.  In a meeting a time ago there was a subject that was brought to light that in my opinion involved the making of a new policy.  I very simply asked that that policy be written and posted so as to make sure that we follow the policy to the "T".  We don't want any misunderstandings and have anybody written up.

I showed up to a meeting to find out that there was an exercise that I was intentionally excluded from in reprisal to asking for written policy as mentioned.

I questioned the individual and was told that, "You were too busy to attend the exercise"  Which of course I was not too busy and was available.

In my opinion, this was VINDICTIVE, DISCRIMINATORY,  and in RETALIATION.


First Question:   Does non-documented policy stand up?

Second Questions:  Is instant policy making permitted by CAP?

Third Question:  Was this retaliatory discrimination?     



Almost 5 years of dedication and decoration and I find myself wanting to quit. 
   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

There are channels for reporting discrimination.

However - take it from me - it is hard as heck to prove.

Reprisal behaviour from a pissed-off CC may not necessarily be discrimination...it's a crock, but in many cases it falls under "commander's privilege."  BTDT.

[Eclipse]

I showed up to a meeting to find out that there was an exercise that I was intentionally excluded from in reprisal to asking for written policy as mentioned.

And you know this how, exactly?

First Question:   Does non-documented policy stand up?

Stand up to what?  If a Commander tells you to do something within his AOR, and that something doesn't violate
CAP regulations, you do it, or you vote with your feet.  Those are the only choices.

Second Questions:  Is instant policy making permitted by CAP?

If a Commander tells you to do something within his AOR, and that something doesn't violate
CAP regulations, you do it, or you vote with your feet.  Those are the only choices.

Third Question:  Was this retaliatory discrimination? 

As provided?   No.  Not even close.
Are you in a protected class and were excluded specifically because of something related to that class?

Not being told about an activity is not discrimination, whether you wanted to be there or not.

Based only on what is posted here, it sounds like you didn't get your way and were being a PITA,
if that's the case, what do you expect?   Do you think volunteers with a choice are going to be
overly receptive to people hassling them, likely about something trivial?

[Tim Medeiros]

If you truly and honestly feel that this is a valid complaint here are some things to read and a form to fill out.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_002_D2CD7C6F4C14A.pdf
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R123_002_3B7E17A8333CE.pdf
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/capf030_790694C9323B9.doc (word version)
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F030_ECFA02C6996C0.pdf (pdf version)

Q1: Depends, what is the policy?  Is the policy "uniforms are x on the first meeting and y on the others?" doesn't really need to be in writing, but it would be nice
Q2: Yes, I've done this a few times.  The second I learned of an issue I made a policy to mitigate the risks, made it verbal to everyone until it could be written down in either email or memo (went with both)
Q3: On what basis do you feel you were discriminated against?  Your options, as laid out in CAPR 36-1 (and its source documents) are race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin or disability.

In regards to reprisal, I'll defer to our resident IG in regards to the process for that.

[RiverAux]

I don't see where you have suffered any harm because of this incident. 

There is no requirement that every policy be in written format. 

[JeffDG]

People have completely stripped the word "discrimination" of it's proper meaning.  Discrimination is something we all do every day.  It's the act of choosing between alternatives.

If I choose to have a salad instead of a sandwich for lunch, I'm discriminating.  If I'm the Planning Section Chief and I choose to give Bob the coveted Resource Unit Lead job for a SAREX instead of Doug (because, face it, Bob's the smarter Hoser), I'm discriminating.

All of these things are proper and normal.

What people have come to the conclusion of is that discrimination is evil.  There are specific grounds of discrimination that we have, via the processes of regulation and the application of federal, state and local law, that have been declared off-limits.  If I choose Archie instead of Betty for the Situation Unit Lead job (also highly coveted by the way) because I don't think women can keep all the different aspects of the mission straight, then I'm discriminating based upon gender, and that's verboten.  If I make the same decision because Betty's writing on the status board is completely indecipherable, then I've discriminated based on a completely valid basis.

In context here, we're talking about potential retaliation.  First, I see no indication that a complaint was filed with the IG about the original issue of not putting the policy in writing.  Such a complaint would trigger whistle-blower protections.  If the commander simply thinks you're difficult to work with, he's encouraged, but not obligated, to try and deal with that.  It's not the basis of a complaint should he choose not to do so.

[a2capt]

Discrimination .. perhaps. As explained. Rule breaker? Most likely not even close.

Politics.. probably.

Just sit back .. and have a drink.. make a note of it..

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Example

Request / Order: CC "I'm leaving early to ... Last one out lock the front door to the squadron."

Policy: The front door of the squadron was left unlocked last week. Last Senior Member to leave is responsible to lock the doors.

The policy is a long term way of doing things. My recommendation would be to put it in writing as it applies to the members not at the meeting and new members in the future.

If the issue is serious then having it in writing makes more sense. I don't know how serious the policy from the OP was.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

One thing I have learnt from the military/CAP is that, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist, and for a commander to make a policy change without doing it in writing is just shooting themselves in the foot.

I have had a couple of commanders who put every policy directive in writing and some who didn't know the meaning of the word, let alone blue or black ink.  You can probably guess who the more effective commanders were.

About all I can see for the OP is to approach the CC, ask to see him/her in private and voice your concerns.

If s/he is any kind of commander, s/he will listen, though not maybe to your satisfaction.

If s/he doesn't listen and blows you off...I have known CC's who were out-and-out jerks, unfortunately.

(JeffDG: I'm sure I'm not the only one who caught your SCTV shtick reference).

[Flying Pig]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with what "discrimination" is.   Maybe they just don't like you.  A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

You asked to have a written policy and now you are kept from participating in activities?  There is either more to the story or you unit is weird.

[MSG Mac]

 How can you have a policy if, it's not available or known to the membership? Write it down and then disseminate to all within the command and if you have a bulletin board-post it. 

[lordmonar]

One thing I have learnt from the military/CAP is that, if it isn't in writing, it doesn't exist, and for a commander to make a policy change without doing it in writing is just shooting themselves in the foot.

Then you know nothing about either the military or CAP.

Unwritten policy happens all the time.  Not neccessarily good leadership....but it happens....and don't be that guy who fails to meet it and say "I did not know"....sure you aren't going to get an Article 15 over it....but as my TI at Basic Training said....."It will reflect".

[Brad]

Col. Medeiros beat me to it.

You don't know for a fact that you were blocked from the activity because you spoke about a policy position. Sure that's your opinion, but the IG programs deals in tangible facts and evidence to support allegations. If I were the the IG, I would likely dismiss it before it even began the process.

For what it's worth, the CAP definition of discrimination is:

2. Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap). It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no applicant meeting CAP's minimum age requirement will be denied membership in CAP on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap).

To me as an IO, having a difference of opinion does not fit this definition.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Then you know nothing about either the military or CAP.

Unwritten policy happens all the time.  Not neccessarily good leadership....but it happens....and don't be that guy who fails to meet it and say "I did not know"....sure you aren't going to get an Article 15 over it....but as my TI at Basic Training said....."It will reflect".

Thank you for the insult, Master Sergeant...granted, I did not have as long in the ANG as you did in the Air Force, but I have roughly 20 years in CAP, but that is no reason to say that I know nothing about either.

I am only saying what I have learnt in my experience.

Maybe they just don't like you. 

Which can happen; personally, I won't waste my time with any organisation where I know someone doesn't like me and are not professional enough to not let their personal feelings get in the way.  Doors swing both ways.

A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

Or someone not calling them on it when it does counter a CAP policy.  That happens too, often with commanders who have a "tyrannical" mentality.

I am reminded of Groucho Marx' dictum that "I wouldn't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member anyway."

[ZigZag911]

I agree this would almost certainly not result in an IG or discrimination investigation...however, 90% plus of complaints don't lead to an investigation. Nevertheless, a good IG will try to help you resolve the root issue.

You got some good advice -- have a talk with your commander.

If you are not satisfied that you got a fair hearing from the CC (which is not the same thing as getting your way!) then contact the IG or a chaplain, who will begin first of all by trying to help you and your unit CC/staff communicate better.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Unfortunately, it is not, in most cases, against the law and/or discriminatory to be a jerk.

[Al Sayre]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position... 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position...

If the squadron has a chaplain.  I have only been in one (my first) that had a chaplain (and he was a real go-getter; GT and Observer qualified in addition to his Skypilot credentials).  I have seen very, very few units that have been able to attract (and keep) chaplains.

[Brad]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position...

If the squadron has a chaplain.  I have only been in one (my first) that had a chaplain (and he was a real go-getter; GT and Observer qualified in addition to his Skypilot credentials).  I have seen very, very few units that have been able to attract (and keep) chaplains.

My local squadron has a good chaplain. He does local ministry and was previously the Health Services Officer since he's a Paramedic with the county EMS.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Talk to your Squadron Chaplain, he has a direct line to the Squadron CC and quite frequently can resolve these types of issues by discussing it with the Commander objectively as a neutral observer, since he doesn't have any emotional attachment to either position...

If the squadron has a chaplain.  I have only been in one (my first) that had a chaplain (and he was a real go-getter; GT and Observer qualified in addition to his Skypilot credentials).  I have seen very, very few units that have been able to attract (and keep) chaplains.

My local squadron has a good chaplain. He does local ministry and was previously the Health Services Officer since he's a Paramedic with the county EMS.

You're fortunate.

[ZigZag911]

If your squadron has no chaplain, try group or wing HQ.

[PilotMan]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with what "discrimination" is.   Maybe they just don't like you.  A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

You asked to have a written policy and now you are kept from participating in activities?  There is either more to the story or you unit is weird.

New Squadron Commander...... Need I say too much more? 

[Eclipse]

New Squadron Commander...... Need I say too much more?

Yes, you need, at least if you want informed opinion on the matter.

The above just makes it sound even more like typical "You can't, I won't, you can't make me..."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with what "discrimination" is.   Maybe they just don't like you.  A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

You asked to have a written policy and now you are kept from participating in activities?  There is either more to the story or you unit is weird.

New Squadron Commander...... Need I say too much more? 

A new Squadron Commander may or may not know the butt end of CAP regulations from a phone book; however, that does not make the action you describe discriminatory.

Believe me, I've been there.  I filed a complaint against a former employer through the Americans with Disabilities Act.  If what you have experienced indeed turns out to be discrimination, I'm sympathetic.

However, as it stands, I'm not seeing it.

[Flying Pig]

Reading through some of the posts... .I really don't see where bringing the unit chaplain in on this issue is proper.   This isn't a counseling issue.  This is a member who has an issue with a policy set forth by the commander.  Sitting down with the two players with the Chaplain in the middle moderating is not what the chaplain is there for.  I would be pretty disappointed with my chaplain if he/she allowed themselves to be used by the membership to attempt to manipulate my decisions.   If a Sq CC makes a policy you don't agree with, or implements it in a manner you don't agree with, run it up the chain of command.

[PilotMan]

Reading through some of the posts... .I really don't see where bringing the unit chaplain in on this issue is proper.   This isn't a counseling issue.  This is a member who has an issue with a policy set forth by the commander.  Sitting down with the two players with the Chaplain in the middle moderating is not what the chaplain is there for.  I would be pretty disappointed with my chaplain if he/she allowed themselves to be used by the membership to attempt to manipulate my decisions.   If a Sq CC makes a policy you don't agree with, or implements it in a manner you don't agree with, run it up the chain of command.

Some of the decisions are good and being a new commander, he wants to be extra careful.  Problem is one can not remember all the rule changes, policies, and procedures and they are not posted anywhere.

I was recently written up, or counseled as its called, for not following a verbal enacted procedure to use an equipment sign out sheet that was a blank piece of paper thrown in the locker.  I sent the projector out for repair and told the squadron commander about the repair.  And as mentioned.... was written up.   Now funny thing is the projector was not even in inventory and was hidden during SUI.  Ill tell you!!! :clap:

This is only a drop in the bucket of bazaar going on in this wing.     Im now going towards the "WHATEVER" feeling toward CAP.  Bunch a over zealous new blood running around honking their horns.   

[Flying Pig]

Yeah... my issue with the idea of suggesting we bring the chaplain in as the moderator on the matter.

[Eclipse]

I was recently written up, or counseled as its called, for not following a verbal enacted procedure to use an equipment sign out sheet that was a blank piece of paper thrown in the locker.  I sent the projector out for repair and told the squadron commander about the repair.  And as mentioned.... was written up.   Now funny thing is the projector was not even in inventory and was hidden during SUI.

We're shocked.

Have we ever seen a case like this where little "rubs" don't leak out the sides of a complaint?

The projector may not have needed to be in the "inventory", and if it should be, and you were aware of it, you were complicit,
either way, don't wave that around as a "gotcha".

If you have actionable items, complaints, or issues with regulations that were violated, stand up and file the complaints, or don't,
but don't be "that guy" that whines and complains in the back of the room and makes a "list" of grievances and slights for later use.

This is only a drop in the bucket of bazaar going on in this wing.     Im now going towards the "WHATEVER" feeling toward CAP.  Bunch a over zealous new blood running around honking their horns.   

If you wait long enough, generally the whole landscape comes out.

You were told to do something, you "forgot", and you want to turn it into a discrimination complaint because you were called out on it.

I guess "Sorry, Sir, I forgot." was out of the question.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I guess "Sorry, Sir, I forgot." was out of the question.

One thing I learnt from my first day of AF BMT was the phrase "No excuses, Sir."  It didn't mean I didn't get a posterior shredding from the MTI, but sometimes it mitigated it.

One thing I often tell subordinates and cadets: Anyone can make an error - it only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it.

[lordmonar]

I guess "Sorry, Sir, I forgot." was out of the question.

One thing I learnt from my first day of AF BMT was the phrase "No excuses, Sir."  It didn't mean I didn't get a posterior shredding from the MTI, but sometimes it mitigated it.

One thing I often tell subordinates and cadets: Anyone can make an error - it only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it.

I hate that line.   I thank the FSM that my TI did not make us say it.

It is stupid, idiotic and counter productive.

Of course there is an excuse...i.e. an explanation of why you failed to complete the task/mission.  Sometimes is was your fault, sometimes it was someone else's fault, sometime it was the equipment, sometimes the hand of God came down and ruined your day.

If the only acceptable answer is "No excuse Sir!"........Why do you ask questions like "why are you late?"   It is clear that you don't care about the "why" so why waste your and my time asking stupid questions?   

Sorry.......for the rant......"No Excuse Sir!" is just one of my pet peeves.

[SarDragon]

I differentiate between "excuse" and "reason".

A reason is a legitimate explanation for why something did or didn't happen.

an explanation of why you failed to complete the task/mission.  Sometimes is was your fault, sometimes it was someone else's fault, sometime it was the equipment, sometimes the hand of God came down and ruined your day.

OTOH, an excuse is usually a lame attempt to mitigate a really bad decision, or negligent behaviour, like, "My dog ate my homework." Everyone knows you didn't really do your homework, but the teacher might have a tiny bit of sympathy. Or not. Or just laugh as the zero goes in the grade book.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sorry.......for the rant......"No Excuse Sir!" is just one of my pet peeves.

Master Sergeant, no offence intended, but somehow I had an inkling if someone was going to shoot down what I say, even if I am endeavouring to be positive and helpful, you will take it upon yourself to do so.

[gshayd]

I work for in a military organization as a civilian plus I have over 28 years as an NCO. We have bulletin boards where the Commander posts his policies.  As the Commanders representative I put out polices and put them in writing. Have you ever done that exercise where you tell a person something and he tells the next person and 30 people down the line it sounds nothing like what was said originally?  If it is in writing that communication policy is not subject to communication problems such as this.  I would submit that if a policy is important to a Commander he should put it in writing and post it so there is no mis-communication about the Commanders intent and what he wants to be done. That way if his policy is not done the individual can be counseled and can't say that 2LT Snuffy told me the policy was X,Y,Z.  Proper communication will solve most of your problems and avoid incidents where a person feels they were wronged. Plus you have what you need to counsel the individual in order to apply corrective actions to remove the problem.   I deal with Soldiers ever day.  When they come in and start telling me that they are being wronged I can pull out the written policy and end any argument or disagreement on the spot. Plus while they are they I counsel them in writing to ensure that they know about the policy so it quashes any difference of opinion in the future and I can get on to solving the really important problems.

[ZigZag911]

Yeah... my issue with the idea of suggesting we bring the chaplain in as the moderator on the matter.

It is entirely appropriate, and in fact part of the chaplain's role, to assist in improving communications within the unit when there is a breakdown...not to take sides, and certainly not to "manipulate" the commander, but to serve as an objective 3rd party helping each person involved understand the other's position.

[Flying Pig]

Id disagree.  This is also a policy that could affect the Chaplain.  The chaplains job is not to mediate issues of policy of command decisions.  But OK, you can utilize your chaplain however you see fit. Since we follow a para-military model are chaplains brought in with 2Lt Jones doesn't agree with Col Rogers in the Air Force?   My LE agency has Chaplains.   There are plenty of things the Sheriff implements that people do not like.   Ive never seen the Dept Chaplain brought in to mediate those disagreements.    Now with CAP.  This is a command decision on how to deal with a particular issue.  There is a chain of command set in place to deal with disagreements or misunderstandings.   The Chaplain is not a part of it.  The  member needs to meet with the Deputy Commander for Seniors and explain his issues.  That person can then take it to the commander, if the unit is that formal.  If the member does not like the decision or how it was handled it goes up the chain.  Im not seeing, as it was described, that this is a matter of one-on-one mediation.  As a former CC, if my chaplain intervened like this, I would politely stop the conversation and bring in my Deputy Commander and we would discuss the situation.  Not have the Chaplain sit between us and say "OK commander, now its your turn to speak."   My father spent several years as a CAP chaplain.  I ran the scenario past him.  His response was "absolutely not something the chaplain gets involved in."  His personal opinion.   

The chaplains roll in a Squadron is not to insure the commander and his people understand his policies.  If there is an issue, he can definitely step in as a member.  But to suggest that its the chaplains roll to address a scenario like this it out of their scope of responsibility. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If nothing else, a Chaplain with good mediation skills (experience and training in such matters, which not all clergy have) can, if nothing else, help to lower the emotional temperature of the aggrieved parties and thus steer the discussion more toward rationality.

But not always.

[abdsp51]

Still not the Chaplain's place.  If the member has an issue he needs to take it up with the CC and/or higher if need be.  Hard to say in this case as the full story is not being told.

[Chappie]

Id disagree.  This is also a policy that could affect the Chaplain.  The chaplains job is not to mediate issues of policy of command decisions.  But OK, you can utilize your chaplain however you see fit. Since we follow a para-military model are chaplains brought in with 2Lt Jones doesn't agree with Col Rogers in the Air Force?   My LE agency has Chaplains.   There are plenty of things the Sheriff implements that people do not like.   Ive never seen the Dept Chaplain brought in to mediate those disagreements.    Now with CAP.  This is a command decision on how to deal with a particular issue.  There is a chain of command set in place to deal with disagreements or misunderstandings.   The Chaplain is not a part of it.  The  member needs to meet with the Deputy Commander for Seniors and explain his issues.  That person can then take it to the commander, if the unit is that formal.  If the member does not like the decision or how it was handled it goes up the chain.  Im not seeing, as it was described, that this is a matter of one-on-one mediation.  As a former CC, if my chaplain intervened like this, I would politely stop the conversation and bring in my Deputy Commander and we would discuss the situation.  Not have the Chaplain sit between us and say "OK commander, now its your turn to speak."   My father spent several years as a CAP chaplain.  I ran the scenario past him.  His response was "absolutely not something the chaplain gets involved in."  His personal opinion.   

The chaplains roll in a Squadron is not to insure the commander and his people understand his policies.  If there is an issue, he can definitely step in as a member.  But to suggest that its the chaplains roll to address a scenario like this it out of their scope of responsibility.

Spot on....if the Commander should ask for my counsel/opinion that is one thing.  But to take every member's concern/complaint to the commander is not the Chaplain's responsibility.    However, if I feel that there is a major ground swell of discontent that would have great impact on the mission of the squadron and the commander would suffer I would share with the commander of the impending storm.  One should never let the commander be "blindsided". 

[Chappie]

Reading through some of the posts... .I really don't see where bringing the unit chaplain in on this issue is proper.   This isn't a counseling issue.  This is a member who has an issue with a policy set forth by the commander.  Sitting down with the two players with the Chaplain in the middle moderating is not what the chaplain is there for.  I would be pretty disappointed with my chaplain if he/she allowed themselves to be used by the membership to attempt to manipulate my decisions.   If a Sq CC makes a policy you don't agree with, or implements it in a manner you don't agree with, run it up the chain of command.

Concur

[ZigZag911]

CAPR 20-1 Position Description:
"The chaplain is a member of the commander's staff at all echelons of command, and as such is the advisor to the commander and
his/her staff on matters of religion, morals, and the well being of personnel under his/her command". (emphasis mine)

One problem in CAP, as I see it (and I've been in continuous service since joining as a cadet in 1970 and have been a commander, deputy commander, chief of staff at various levels)) is people making mountains out of molehills...which is what leads to lack of comprehension, lack of motivation and lack of membership retention.

All of this has led to an absolutely ridiculous number of formal complaints about picayune matters, which wastes a lot of time of people who could be doing useful, positive things for CAP.

A mediator can help people at odds get what each other is saying.

This is a good thing.

Clarity (regarding the policy at the root of this issue) does not undermine command authority, it enhances it.

Talking a perceived problem through with a member who feels wronged does not make the commander seem weak, but rather as someone who is actually concerned about the members.

The CAP IG complaint process calls for resolving disputes at the lowest level possible...ideally, the original squadron or flight. Often this is an informal approach...and an objective third part with experience mediating between people (like a chaplain or legal officer) can help keep the conversation issue focused (rather than personality focused).

A commander should be primarily interested in accomplishing the mission and motivating members to contribute to this end.

We should use whatever resources are available -- and leave our egos outside the meeting place!

[Storm Chaser]

CAPR 20-1 Position Description:
"The chaplain is a member of the commander's staff at all echelons of command, and as such is the advisor to the commander and
his/her staff on matters of religion, morals, and the well being of personnel under his/her command". (emphasis mine)

One problem in CAP, as I see it (and I've been in continuous service since joining as a cadet in 1970 and have been a commander, deputy commander, chief of staff at various levels)) is people making mountains out of molehills...which is what leads to lack of comprehension, lack of motivation and lack of membership retention.

All of this has led to an absolutely ridiculous number of formal complaints about picayune matters, which wastes a lot of time of people who could be doing useful, positive things for CAP.

A mediator can help people at odds get what each other is saying.

This is a good thing.

Clarity (regarding the policy at the root of this issue) does not undermine command authority, it enhances it.

Talking a perceived problem through with a member who feels wronged does not make the commander seem weak, but rather as someone who is actually concerned about the members.

The CAP IG complaint process calls for resolving disputes at the lowest level possible...ideally, the original squadron or flight. Often this is an informal approach...and an objective third part with experience mediating between people (like a chaplain or legal officer) can help keep the conversation issue focused (rather than personality focused).

A commander should be primarily interested in accomplishing the mission and motivating members to contribute to this end.

We should use whatever resources are available -- and leave our egos outside the meeting place!

This is probably the best reply on this thread yet. Well said! I couldn't agree with you more.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I agree, ZigZag is talking sense based on experience, which to me is the best kind.

Another problem I see is people in leadership/command positions - at all levels - who have no business in a slot like that.  We can't all be Pattons, LeMays, Dowdings, Powells or Schwarzkopfs.  I served as a Deputy CC and learnt from that experience that I am no leader.  I say that without shame.  However, I am a reasonably good behind-the-scenes trainer.  It's too bad there isn't a speciality track for Testing Officers, because that's something I can do well.  It doesn't just involve grading tests, it also involves encouragement.  It's a shot in the arm to me when a young cadet is taking their first tests and get dejected because they didn't pass, even though they tried, and I mean really tried, when I advise/counsel them on how they can do better (positively)...and the next time, they get it.

That happens in the "real" world too, everywhere from managers at McD's or Taco Bell to Wall Street to the Presidency of the United States (not singling out any particular President, present or past).  It's called The Peter Principle.

Too many in CAP have command positions that they've been overeager to take or thrust upon them when no-one else will do it.  They're often overwhelmed by it, or they are not very ethical to begin with and use it to advance their own agendas and/or block others from advancing.  The ones who take on the job and, no matter how many mistakes they make, keep trying and listen to their people are the best commanders.  What really sucks in CAP is if you've got a good commander at one level (squadron, group, wing, region, national) but a jerk at any other level of the chain, you've got problems.

The relationship between Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev was successful largely because they were willing to listen to and talk to each other.  Much the same goes for FDR and Churchill.

Just being an empathetic ear, even if you can't "fix" the situation, can go a long way toward defusing a potential conflict.

[mynetdude]

This thread reminds me a lot of what just recently happened at my squadron.

I recently also tried to file an IG complaint on the basis of discrimination of a protected class; it is indeed difficult to prove; not only is it difficult to prove I had a lot of people telling me that I did not want to be the guy who successfully alleged the complaint against a commander because everyone would see me as the "tattle tale" AND that the ADA was for protecting your livelihood in the workplace when you are gainfully employed.

I truly believe I was discriminated but there were some complications preventing me from being able to have absolute concrete proof so I had to let it go; but there was a lot of knee jerk reaction from the commander because of how he communicates and runs the squadron.  We lost one member, another recently deployed; I've stepped out of the squadron, we have 2 other members considering quitting possibly.

Its sad that CAP commander at higher echelons allow this to continue when the problem has been going on for months (4 months to be exact); they HAVE the legal authority and it is within their AOR to remove a commander that is not providing for a functional squadron.  Working it out sometimes isn't always possible because you cannot change the person, you can only change the means IMO.

Being excluded CAN be discriminatory IF you can prove it AND you have a protected class and the exclusion is RELATED to that protected class; for example I was removed from logistics because the commander felt I could not see well enough although that is my opinion and can be seen as non discriminatory for what its worth it could also be a safety concern (yeah so perhaps, but if there is a safety problem that needs to be mitigated I can get help instead of injuring myself I am not that stupid).

All I can say is I hope that whoever is in command will realize that they need to try to understand & communicate and not try to be super militaristic not just in my squadron but in all squadrons.

[JeffDG]

Well, to start with a claim of discrimination for a protected class should not go to the IG.  If you submit same to the IG, their job is to forward it to CAPNHQ for review and processing.

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_002_D2CD7C6F4C14A.pdf

Complainants will forward complaints of discrimination to the EOO, or the Equal Opportunity Administrator at CAP National Headquarters, for handling. Any commander or inspector general receiving a complaint of discrimination shall also forward it to the EOO, or the Equal Opportunity Administrator at CAP National Headquarters, for handling.

[capchick121]

I had a similar thing happen to me. Only I was removed from positions from voicing a concern of safety. I went to the IG and they took things seriously. However, I had documented dates, times, etc. Report type write ups of things that were said. Direct quotes. I think that helped me a lot. Any time you feel something isn't right, document it. It'll help in the long run if you choose to take action.