Saluting and non-saluting

[JeffDG]

Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.

No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.

No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.

Correct.  That is what perplexed me - rendering officer courtesies to me when I had no grade at all.

[NC Hokie]

Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.

No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.

The salute is just one part of C&C.

[BHartman007]

Cadets are required to render C&C to all senior members, regardless of grade.

No, they're required to salute all senior member officers, not all senior members.

One of the training courses (I want to say Officer Basic?) said that for purposes of C&C SMWOG was treated as an officer.

[Storm Chaser]

This is what CAPP 151 says about cadets saluting senior members:

When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. (emphasis mine)

It's interesting that it says "CAP senior members" and not "CAP officers". That said, I agree that cadets should render CAP NCOs the customs and courtesies that are rendered to NCOs, which doesn't include saluting (unless reporting).

Traditionally, senior members that are yet to be promoted to 2d Lt (or FO for that matter), have been informally considered "officers in training" (no, that's not an official status, but somewhat implied). That may explain why cadets would treat them as officers. With the new NCO program, there is a possibility that a new senior member will now be considered "officer in training" or "NCO in training" before they're promoted to 2d Lt or SSgt, as appropriate. The differences in uniform were addressed in the yet to be official CAPM 39-1 draft.

But regardless of whether a senior member is an officer, NCO or has no grade, cadets still need to render appropriate customs and courtesies, as a new senior member (even without grade) is still superior in rank than a C/Col.

[lordmonar]

To say that CAP publications are inconsistant is an understatement.  Sort of that whole push to get all CAP Senior Member to be just called CAP Officers.    Sounds great....but you forgot about the 80 or so NCO's.   

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

[Al Sayre]

I assume it's kind of like boot camp, where we saluted NCO's  "just for practice"...

[AirAux]

IIRC, USAFA Cadets on summer activities are saluted by enlisted and they are not technically officers, however, I have heard them addressed occasionally as third lieutenants.

[Storm Chaser]

To say that CAP publications are inconsistant is an understatement.  Sort of that whole push to get all CAP Senior Member to be just called CAP Officers.    Sounds great....but you forgot about the 80 or so NCO's.   

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

I agree. I don't believe the issue is with NCOs, but with senior members without grades. What are they? They're not officers, but they're not enlisted either. Are they suppose to be saluted by cadets? According to CAPP 151, yes. But should they? Until we can differentiate between senior members in the officer track and those in the NCO track, that's going to cause confusion among cadets. And because we teach cadets that when in doubt salute, they'll continue to salute senior members even when they don't have a grade. But again, I agree with you; NCOs are normally not saluted.

[lordmonar]

IIRC, USAFA Cadets on summer activities are saluted by enlisted and they are not technically officers, however, I have heard them addressed occasionally as third lieutenants.

If they are saluted....it is by mistake.  Looks like an officer, talks like an officer.....salute it.   

[ColonelJack]

IIRC, USAFA Cadets on summer activities are saluted by enlisted and they are not technically officers, however, I have heard them addressed occasionally as third lieutenants.

Way, way back when, at a time I was considering applying for an appointment to the USAFA (like that was ever gonna happen), back in the days before time - when dirt was so new it still had the price tag on it - I recall reading in one of the Academy booklets they sent people who were interested that during the summer between one's junior and senior year, one goes out into the field in the status of a "third lieutenant."

Never did understand what that was all about at the time; now I understand that it puts a cadet into a job in the chain of command.

Heinlein did something very much like that with his "Starship Troopers."

Jack

[Fubar]

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

Is it a good idea to teach our cadets to ignore rules they don't agree with?

[Eclipse]

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

What if the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?

[lordmonar]

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

Is it a good idea to teach our cadets to ignore rules they don't agree with?

Yes.  In this case because the pamphlet is simply wrong.

[lordmonar]

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?

Stripes from another service?   Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs.  It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.

It is not rocket science.  You don't salute NCO's normally.

[PHall]

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?

Stripes from another service?   Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs.  It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.

It is not rocket science.  You don't salute NCO's normally.

NCO's are NOT commanders, ever!  They're either NCOIC's or a Superentendant.

[THRAWN]

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?

Stripes from another service?   Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs.  It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.

It is not rocket science.  You don't salute NCO's normally.

NCO's are NOT commanders, ever!  They're either NCOIC's or a Superentendant. You know that Pat.

Cite your source. Sorry Eclipse....

[lordmonar]

Same story for 151.....as a CAP NCO......I don't care what 151 says....I tell people not to salute me.   And I'm ready to fight anyone who says otherwise.  This is one of those cases where the publication is just wrong.

What id the member wearing the stripes from another service is the Unit Commander?

Stripes from another service?   Also....unless you are reporting to the commander or part of a formation.....you don't salute NCOs.  It does not matter if he is the unit commander or the national commander.

It is not rocket science.  You don't salute NCO's normally.

NCO's are NOT commanders, ever!  They're either NCOIC's or a Superentendant.

Currently there is one at least one CAP NCO who is a squadron commander.   As the NCO program advances that will not be allowed.   But I agree with you...if you want to command trade in your stripes.

[Eclipse]

NCO's are NOT commanders, ever! 

Which CAP are you in?

There are currently two members wearing stripes from another service who are posted as CC, down from about
10 the last time I looked about 6 months ago.

There are also 3 SMWOG.

Assuming CAP ever starts an NCO program, removing NCOs from the possibility (and frankly the responsibility) of being unit CCs will only further
reduce the already too small number of people dumb enough willing to do the job, and rob CAP of the potential
experience and leadership of people who would otherwise make excellent commanders.

More reason why a legit NCO caste-type system will never be workable in today's CAP.  We're somewhere
short of enough people to even consider the idea by about 1/2.

[PHall]

NCO's are NOT commanders, ever! 

Which CAP are you in?

There are currently two members wearing stripes from another service who are posted as CC, down from about
10 the last time I looked about 6 months ago.

There are also 3 SMWOG.

Assuming CAP ever starts an NCO program, removing NCOs from the possibility (and frankly the responsibility) of being unit CCs will only further
reduce the already too small number of people dumb enough willing to do the job, and rob CAP of the potential
experience and leadership of people who would otherwise make excellent commanders.

More reason why a legit NCO caste-type system will never be workable in today's CAP.  We're somewhere
short of enough people to even consider the idea by about 1/2.

Wasn't talking about CAP. I was responding to Lordmonar's post and I was referring to the Air Force.

CAP does what CAP does. And it doesn't always follow military tradition.

And yes, when I was an NCO in CAP I was told I could not be a Commander or even a Primary Tactical Officer at Encampment  because having an NCO in charge of officers is just not done.
Just one of the many reasons I reverted back to my CAP officer grade. Being an NCO causes too many problems if you're working in Cadet Programs.