Saluting and non-saluting

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I am not trying to open a can of worms viz. our relationship with the Armed Forces...but ever since I have been in CAP the topic of saluting has always confused me.

Military personnel are not required to salute us but are not prohibited from doing so if they wish.  My own experience with this has been generally:
1. Air Force - rarely; I consider myself very fortunate if an Airman even acknowledges me with a "hello."
2. Army - almost always, especially National Guard
3. Navy - usually
4. Marines - 50/50
5. Coast Guard - almost always

However, we are required to salute military officers senior in grade to us.  I do not have a problem with this and would do it even if not required.

I have never been able to understand this dichotomy.  We are civilians, not subject to the UCMJ, and yet we are required to salute military officers, who (as with all military forces) are subject to UCMJ regs on saluting.  Supposedly we can get in trouble if we don't, but how, since we are not subject to the UCMJ?  Do we get a 2B for an SMWOG failing to salute a second lieutenant?

I won't even get started too much on saluting within CAP.  I do it, as do most other oldsters like me  but I find it growing rarer, especially among those who wear the corporate uniforms.  About the only consistent saluting within CAP I notice is cadets to seniors.

Example: I would certainly salute our National CC, General Carr, but I personally know seniors who would be more likely to just say "hello (with even "sir" being optional)" to him.

[Eclipse]

I am not trying to open a can of worms

Good luck with that.

I have never been able to understand this dichotomy.  We are civilians, not subject to the UCMJ, and yet we are required to salute military officers, who (as with all military forces) are subject to UCMJ regs on saluting.  Supposedly we can get in trouble if we don't, but how, since we are not subject to the UCMJ?  Do we get a 2B for an SMWOG failing to salute a second lieutenant?

I won't even get started too much on saluting within CAP.  I do it, as do most other oldsters like me  but I find it growing rarer, especially among those who wear the corporate uniforms.  About the only consistent saluting within CAP I notice is cadets to seniors.

Example: I would certainly salute our National CC, General Carr, but I personally know seniors who would be more likely to just say "hello (with even "sir" being optional)" to him.

You certainly could, but likely as part of a larger problem.  It's one thing to "not know", it's another to "willfully disobey".
Insubordination is one of those "value add" regulations, used when necessary to make people go away who don't feel
they need to work and play well with others.

People being idiots, acting like they are "empowered" and generally ignoring the rules don't change the rules.

Bottom line, whether you are in the military or not, if you are thinking of a salute as anything more then a
respectful greeting among like-minded peers, you are overthinking it.

Other then it being expected, saluting isn't much different then the way motorcyclists give a quick wave or gesture at
other riders "we're all in this together", but of course, there's always "a few" who are "too good" for whatever reason to
bother, or have some weird mental hoops about why they won't.

Whatever.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.

Personally, I don't care about whether to render a salute or not, as I always do.  I learnt in the ANG that if it moves and has brass on the shoulder and/or rings on the cuff, you salute.  It is a mark of respect.  I get all that.  I don't think we are required to salute SDF officers (their commissions are State-only), NOAA Corps or USPHS Officers, but I always would.  I salute CG Auxiliarists, though I sometimes get an odd look in return, and I salute NSCC officers.

Even some CAP officers lately give me an odd look when I salute them, which to me is somewhat of a worrying trend.

I was also taught that everyone comes to attention when a senior officer enters the room, but I couldn't tell you when the last time was I saw that, though I have called the room to attention for that a few times.

[Flying Pig]

I think its more of a PR tool CAP uses.  We are civilian volunteers.  The military isn't going to do anything to you for not saluting.  But CAP policy can affect your membership. 

As  a CAP captain, I saluted a Marine 2Lt once and he just returned my salute with an odd look and continued on.  I don't know if he was intending to salute me or not.  On top of that.... I was only wearing my Marine Corps ribbons on my blues shirt with none of my CAP ribbons.  I have to imagine his head was spinning for hours after that little episode  

[Eclipse]

Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.

CAP is granted the privilege of the Military style uniforms, as part of that comes the responsibility to render proper customs and courtesies.
Internally our grade is as "real" as any other organization in a similar situation, certainly LEAs, FDs, etc., but externally it does not
hold the same weight of sovereign commission, so there you go.

It is in CAP's best interest to insure its members comport themselves properly, and CAP has no power over any other organization.

[Garibaldi]

I think its more of a PR tool CAP uses.  We are civilian volunteers.  The military isn't going to do anything to you for not saluting.  But CAP policy can affect your membership. 

As  a CAP captain, I saluted a Marine 2Lt once and he just returned my salute with an odd look and continued on.  I don't know if he was intending to salute me or not.  On top of that.... I was only wearing my Marine Corps ribbons on my blues shirt with none of my CAP ribbons.  I have to imagine his head was spinning for hours after that little episode

None of the Marines I have encountered have even deigned to acknowledge my existence, let alone my gold leaves.

[Flying Pig]

I know a lot of Marines who detest saluting officers from other branches..... not to mention someone in a uniform they don't recognize.    99% of people in the military are in-tune enough to be able to look at a CAP officer and know they arent Air Force or Coast Guard. 

[coudano]

It's CAP's rules (not the UCMJ) that say you salute military officer senior in rank to you.
CAP's rules can be enforced within CAP.
But seriously, who is going to exercise CAP administrative discipline on someone for not saluting?
And would something that pedantic stand up against the MARB(marp?)
As you noted, the UCMJ doesn't have anything to do with CAP whatsoever.

The UCMJ says nothing about saluting non military members.
Infact I don't imagine it says anything about saluting at all...
I don't really see someone getting Art 15'd over not saluting.
More like "hey... dude...  fix yourself"
Maybe if it was pattern or intentional (probably part of a larger issue)


An officer who notices someone who should salute, not saluting, rather than lighting up that poor person, should probably be taking a minute to evaluate the command environment.  Maybe a lack of leadership has allowed the situation to slip so that nobody feels the need, or cares, to be bothered.  Maybe morale is so low, that people don't see a reason to be polite, or cheerful (which is how salutes should be exchanged anyway).  Maybe the environment is so toxic because of outright negative leadership that people have an equally toxic or hostile attitude.

Maybe that dude has just come off a 14 hour shift and has a lot of trouble at home.  Do you really want to jump down his throat because he didn't have his situational awareness up in the parking lot on the way to his car?

Maybe he's a disrespectful punk who feels entitled to no obligation of respect, tradition, and politeness.  Is a UCMJ action, or a public nuking the right answer, even there?


The mission of the military, and of CAP is not to 'walk around in uniform saluting each other'.
That's not what we're here for.

[lordmonar]

Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.

It is simple.....we are CAP and CAP says who WE will salute........all the others are not CAP and their rules tell them who they have to salute.

[JeffDG]

Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.

It is simple.....we are CAP and CAP says who WE will salute........all the others are not CAP and their rules tell them who they have to salute.

CAP could make a regulation that we salute the little-old-lady-crossing-the-street, and we would be bound by regulations to do so.

[a2capt]

..and it would get shredded on this forum, but we'd be told "to follow orders", and the rebuttal would be "following orders does not say you can't complain about them".. wash, rinse, repeat.

[Luis R. Ramos]

And part of that rebuttal would be 1/4 members posting about what dress(es) should the little old lady have, and 1/2 would be members stating the little old lady should have / have not a hat on, and the other 1/4 would say not to bother with saluting her just help her cross...

[Garibaldi]

And part of that rebuttal would be 1/4 members posting about what dress(es) should the little old lady have, and 1/2 would be members stating the little old lady should have / have not a hat on, and the other 1/4 would say not to bother with saluting her just help her cross...

And 1/4 would find a way to turn it into a discussion on ABUs

[Luis R. Ramos]

...With half of those arguing the little lady should be wearing them, and the others the members...

[Eclipse]

The mission of the military, and of CAP is not to 'walk around in uniform saluting each other'.
That's not what we're here for.

No, but it's also not mutually exclusive of "real work".

it is a baseline expectation of membership, like or or not, and part of the whole.

We just need to train the membership better so they don't get so wrapped around the axle about it.

[RiverAux]

Your points are well taken, but I still do not understand the "imbalance," if you like, as to why we are required to salute military personnel, but the reverse is not true.

We are required to do a lot of things that the Air Force isn't, this just being a very minor one of them.  It has probably been 10 years since I've been in a CAP situation where a salute to a military officer would be required, so it isn't a big deal to me. 

[Mitchell 1969]

This whole thing is no big deal. In fact, it is among the smallest of deals.

For military people, if I see somebody who outranks me, I salute. If somebody salutes me, I return it. And my life continues.

With CAP cadets, that's different. They have to salute me. It's part of the culture under which I was reared and in which they live. Not optional, so they get chatted with if they fail to do it.

I'll say this - if a former cadet is in the service and doesn't salute CAP officers "because I don't have to," fine, but for forgetting their roots and the people who helped them along, I would consider that as being rude, low class and ungrateful.  Or, as the Russians put it - "некультурный" (uncultured).

[HGjunkie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRZRRlA4sw

Honestly, when it boils down to the core issue.

[antdetroitwallyball]

As far as CAP SMs saluting RealMilitary, the reason..................as I see it, is out of respect for their uniform. We claim to have the priviliage of wearing a [modified] AF uniform, and thus when we are in that uniform, we are expected to honor it by recognizing other persons also wearing that uniform. As I see it, saluting is done out of respect for the uniform, not so much for the person wearing that uniform.

With CAP cadets, that's different. They have to salute me. It's part of the culture under which I was reared and in which they live. Not optional, so they get chatted with if they fail to do it.

Correct. With cadets, the situation is different. Cadets are explicitly subordinate to senior members according to CAPs cadet program. They may have Cadet Captains and Majors, but they are still cadets first.

[coudano]

If a cadet doesn't salute me on the sidewalk on the way into the building, i'm more likely to bring it up to the cadet commander // cadet senior nco, and expect them to resolve the issue.