Flight Officers: What's the point?

[HGjunkie]

Both links have most of the same information. Actually, the wikipedia article is nearly copy-pasted from the Goarmy website. Granted, wikipedia isn't perfect but it's a valid resource for information.

[THRAWN]

I sketched this back in January....seems to keep coming back....

Just off the top of my head and with no real planning....

Now what could be done, is this: restructure the SM initial entry program so EVERY new SM serves time as a FO.
0-1 months –SMWOG (Level 1 and all the associated requirements)
1-3- months-FO (Work with mentor in squadron. Learn the tasks for the position the member will be in.)
3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)
7-12 months SFO (Work with mentor at higher level, group or wing and will be eligible to attend SLS PD only)
12 months+ Second Lieutenant or special circumstance promotion. After that, follow the normal progression in 35-5.

At the end of the 12 months, the new member will have a tech rating, have done some schooling in the CAP way of things, and see how things are done at the squadron and wing levels. Basic insignia on the corporate or AF uniforms. Would go pin on for the utilities, since sewing on the tabs every couple of months would just be a drag...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

The Army is the only service that allows someone off the street to earn officer rank without it, if they make it through Warrant Officer School at Fort Rucker (not as easy as it sounds; my ex-brother-in-law washed out in the '80s).  The Army and Marines still have W-1, but the Navy and Coast Guard don't...they put their Warrants directly into CWO (commissioned) status, and I understand one has, with few exceptions, to be at least an E-7 to be considered.

I have an A.A.S. (with honours) degree plus loads of extra credits making me very nearly eligible for a Bachelors.  When I joined the ANG, the recruiter told me that I could apply for a commission...but that part of my contract would entail completing the Bachelors at a state school (where they would foot at least part of the bill) within a (very short) given time.  At that time I was working full time and no way would I have been able to do it (this was long before the advent of Web-based "distance learning").

[lordmonar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

The Army is the only service that allows someone off the street to earn officer rank without it, if they make it through Warrant Officer School at Fort Rucker (not as easy as it sounds; my ex-brother-in-law washed out in the '80s).  The Army and Marines still have W-1, but the Navy and Coast Guard don't...they put their Warrants directly into CWO (commissioned) status, and I understand one has, with few exceptions, to be at least an E-7 to be considered.

A degree is not "required" as in by law....just by policy.   The advanced commissioning program assumes that you will continue with our education to complete your degree.

The NG also has a lot of lee way on who they commission.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

The Army is the only service that allows someone off the street to earn officer rank without it, if they make it through Warrant Officer School at Fort Rucker (not as easy as it sounds; my ex-brother-in-law washed out in the '80s).  The Army and Marines still have W-1, but the Navy and Coast Guard don't...they put their Warrants directly into CWO (commissioned) status, and I understand one has, with few exceptions, to be at least an E-7 to be considered.

A degree is not "required" as in by law....just by policy.   The advanced commissioning program assumes that you will continue with our education to complete your degree.

The NG also has a lot of lee way on who they commission.

Then it sounds a bit like what the ANG offered me...except the ECP referenced here gives the candidate more time than I was offered.

[antdetroitwallyball]

As it has already been pointed out, there are (generally) enourmous differences in maturity between even 18 and 19, and 19 and 20, and 20 and 21.

I would never support the idea of 18 year old SM who holds the duty position of leading cadets. 18 year olds should not be allowed to be "Adult Leaders" because they are simply not true adults. You can pass a law to make the age of majority 15 if you like, but it will have not effect on the science of human brain development.

I tell people this:

When you are 13, you are the smartest you'll ever be as a teenager. You know your place, for the most part. As you approach 16, 17, 18, you get dumber. The low point is 18. At that point, you have convinced yourself that you are somehow an adult. In fact, you are an experienced CHILD, nothing more. Maybe at 20 we can think of you as an inexperienced ADULT. But even that's a stretch. My squadron has several 17-20 year old cadets. For the most part, they do great as senior cadet leaders. But I don't think most of them really have the maturity to serve as "Adult Leaders."

I find it amusing to often witness a 17 or 18 year old cadet get all huffy and puffy and self-righteous about how some basic cadet 12 year old keeps asking the most inane and irrelavent questions. I think to myself quietly: "6 months ago, you yourself were not too far ahead of that little 12 year old in terms of maturity in behavour."

I don't even support sending 18 year olds to the military. I've seen too many 18 year olds be wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard. No branches are hurting for troops right now. Raise the limit to 21, and have a waiver process for the deserving exception. This, however, is a conversation for elsewhere.

[MSG Mac]

I sketched this back in January....seems to keep coming back....

Just off the top of my head and with no real planning....

Now what could be done, is this: restructure the SM initial entry program so EVERY new SM serves time as a FO.
0-1 months –SMWOG (Level 1 and all the associated requirements)
1-3- months-FO (Work with mentor in squadron. Learn the tasks for the position the member will be in.)
3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)
7-12 months SFO (Work with mentor at higher level, group or wing and will be eligible to attend SLS PD only)
12 months+ Second Lieutenant or special circumstance promotion. After that, follow the normal progression in 35-5.

At the end of the 12 months, the new member will have a tech rating, have done some schooling in the CAP way of things, and see how things are done at the squadron and wing levels. Basic insignia on the corporate or AF uniforms. Would go pin on for the utilities, since sewing on the tabs every couple of months would just be a drag...

Why not use the current FO program (except the age restrictions) until the individual is awarded his/her Davis Award when they would be eligible for 2Lt.

[Garibaldi]

I don't know if there will ever be an acceptable, across-the-board solution to our grade/PD/military experience/professional experience woes. Personally, I think the solution is part of the problem.

We have a mish-mosh of age, educational, professional, and military experience to contend with.

We don't have a very good comparison to deal with.

My own personal opinion is to do it just like the military: join at 18, start as an airman, and at 22 you can either "test out" to an officer role (college experience) or begin your career as a SSGT with proper progression. If you join at 21, if you have college, you can be a 2nd Lt. If not, you can be an NCO.  Start out at SSGT and make the progression in line with Ma Blue. Flight Officer grades would be for those in a specialty, such as comm or ground team leader or mission observer, as an example.

If you join at an advanced age, there can be allowances given for life experience, but not the "instant captain or lieutenant colonel" unless the member holds advanced medical or legal degrees, similar to the Medical Corps or the JAG/Adjutant General corps.

Squadron Commanders who do not hold a commensurate grade as their RM counterparts would take a temporary promotion, while being allowed to progress through their PD and levels. Once their term of service is over, they would be able to either revert to their previous grade or promote based on their progression during that time, if any. If a SMNCO takes the post, he would be given a temporary "commission" and when his/her term is up, same rule applies. Revert back to NCO and promote based on PD and TIG.

I know there is a lot to be fleshed out with this but it's just one option among many. The NCOs and FOs would be the ones doing the "grunt" work, while the pilots, lawyers and HSOs would be the officer types.

[LSThiker]

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

For the Army, it depends.  If you are commission through ROTC, a four-year degree is required.  If you are commissioning through OCS, then only 90-hours are required.  However, in order to be promoted to Captain, a bachelors degree is required.  If you are a direct commission (minus Medical which requires a four-year degree), then you have 30-days to complete a degree completion plan.

1–10. Educational requirements
a. An original appointment as a commissioned officer, other than a warrant officers (WOs), in the RA in the basic branches may be given only to a person who has a baccalaureate degree, except Officer Candidate School (OCS) graduates who have completed 90 semester hours of college study and who are able to complete a baccalaureate degree from an accredited educational institution prior to the consideration by the captain promotion board.
(1) OCS candidates who do not already have a degree must have an approved college degree completion plan in place prior to graduation and commissioning.
(2) OCS candidates will coordinate with their education support center for development of their plan prior to OCS attendance.
b. Direct appointees who do not already have a baccalaureate degree must have a degree completion plan within 30 days of appointment. Direct appointees will meet with their education support center for development of their plan within 30 days of appointment. College degree completion plans will include the type of degree, a timeline for completion, and an agreement from an accredited university.

[Panache]

3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)

Problem with that is different specialties have different time-in-service amounts.  Safety and Communications, for example, have six months.  ES and PAO has one year.

[Mitchell 1969]

Army still does commissions at 19 in certain cases.

Sure.  WO1s fresh outta WOCS

Except WO1s aren't commissioned, are they? (I thought that commissioning started at CW2).

At any rate, know at least 3 guys who were commissioned as 2LTs before age 21, through ROTC. One was 19, the others were 20. They did it via NMMI - New Mexico Military Institute, a "Junior Military College." They graduated with AA degrees and Reserve commissions.

The setup is like this: while they only complete the first two years of college, they actually complete the last two years of ROTC. They attended the ROTC summer camp right after high school, went to NMMI and did the last two years of ROTC.

It was a little known shortcut years ago. The trap, though, is that they have to complete the 4 year degree before going on active duty - but they get to do so as Reserve lieutenants. I can't remember which, but they either had to have the BS/BA before promoting to captain, or could go no higher than captain.

I think they have taken some AA grad NMMI commissioned 2LTs on active duty during Vietnam, but I'm not positive, just something that I remember from a long-ago conversation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

WO-1's are not commissioned; they are granted their rank by a "warrant" by the Secretary of the Army or Navy (for the Marine Corps).

The Navy and Coast Guard do not use WO-1's; they start their warrant grades directly at CWO-2, which is commissioned rank.

That said, I am sure that enlisted/NCO personnel will salute an Army/Marine WO-1.  I would have.

[NIN]

WO-1's are not commissioned; they are granted their rank by a "warrant" by the Secretary of the Army or Navy (for the Marine Corps).

That has changed.

Warrant officers now hold a commission.

Shawn Stanford (from CadetStuff) is now a CW2. When he was made a WO1, it was a big deal about how warrants are commissioned now.

BIMD, (mine was a Friday) the WITD was warrants couldn't "command" anything because they weren't commissioned.  Tell that to the CW2 or CW3 who was the commander of the transition point at Oakland Army Base.  LOL

[RogueLeader]

3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)

Problem with that is different specialties have different time-in-service amounts.  Safety and Communications, for example, have six months.  ES and PAO has one year.

Not to mention that in order to get your Davis, you need SLS.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

BIMD, (mine was a Friday) the WITD was warrants couldn't "command" anything because they weren't commissioned.  Tell that to the CW2 or CW3 who was the commander of the transition point at Oakland Army Base.  LOL

I thought the commissioning began at CW2.

As for commanding...back in the early '80s my ex-brother-in-law (the same one who washed out of Fort Rucker) worked on a surveillance site on the DMZ in Korea (which he called "the scariest thing I've ever done").  The commander of his "mountain peak" was a warrant officer.

My dad told me that back in the late '50s, when he was in the Army in (West) Germany, the commander of the base motor pool was a grizzled old CWO.  He told me the story of this brand-new Lt. Fuzz second lieutenant fresh out of West Point who almost nobody liked...apparently said butterbar went to the motor pool for something and the grizzled old CWO said, "Son, what the hell are you doing in my motor pool?"

[Mitchell 1969]

WO-1's are not commissioned; they are granted their rank by a "warrant" by the Secretary of the Army or Navy (for the Marine Corps).

That has changed.

Warrant officers now hold a commission.

Shawn Stanford (from CadetStuff) is now a CW2. When he was made a WO1, it was a big deal about how warrants are commissioned now.

BIMD, (mine was a Friday) the WITD was warrants couldn't "command" anything because they weren't commissioned.  Tell that to the CW2 or CW3 who was the commander of the transition point at Oakland Army Base.  LOL

Well..... if we can believe what it says at these sites, it didn't change:

http://www.defense.gov/about/insignias/officers.aspx

http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/become-an-officer/army-officer-jobs.html

(Both sites support the contention that WO1s are NOT commissioned, while CW2 through CW5 are commissioned).

[HGjunkie]

Candidates who successfully complete Warrant Officer Candidate School are appointed in the grade of Warrant Officer One. When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts. However, warrant officers remain single-specialty officers whose career track is oriented towards progressing within their career field rather than focusing on increased levels of command and staff duty positions

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/wocc/woprogram.asp#gradestructure

[Bobble]

As it has already been pointed out, there are (generally) enourmous differences in maturity between even 18 and 19, and 19 and 20, and 20 and 21.

I would never support the idea of 18 year old SM who holds the duty position of leading cadets. 18 year olds should not be allowed to be "Adult Leaders" because they are simply not true adults. You can pass a law to make the age of majority 15 if you like, but it will have not effect on the science of human brain development.

I tell people this:

When you are 13, you are the smartest you'll ever be as a teenager. You know your place, for the most part. As you approach 16, 17, 18, you get dumber. The low point is 18. At that point, you have convinced yourself that you are somehow an adult. In fact, you are an experienced CHILD, nothing more. Maybe at 20 we can think of you as an inexperienced ADULT. But even that's a stretch. My squadron has several 17-20 year old cadets. For the most part, they do great as senior cadet leaders. But I don't think most of them really have the maturity to serve as "Adult Leaders."

I find it amusing to often witness a 17 or 18 year old cadet get all huffy and puffy and self-righteous about how some basic cadet 12 year old keeps asking the most inane and irrelavent questions. I think to myself quietly: "6 months ago, you yourself were not too far ahead of that little 12 year old in terms of maturity in behavour."

I don't even support sending 18 year olds to the military. I've seen too many 18 year olds be wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard. No branches are hurting for troops right now. Raise the limit to 21, and have a waiver process for the deserving exception. This, however, is a conversation for elsewhere.

Interesting point of view.  I wonder if the "17 - 20 year old cadets" in your squadron that you interact with know that you feel this way.  Well, they probably know now, right?  People (yes, even those people with the "teenager" label affixed) often live up to the expectations placed on them.  If you aren't expecting much in the way of maturity from that age group, they'll probably be more than happy to oblige and (barely) meet whatever minimal expectations you might have.

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

As a former CGAuxie, living in a city with a cutter ported, a Small Boat Station, and an Air Station a few hours away...such a remark would NOT go down well here.

[AirDX]

Here's a Flight Officer that had a pretty good point:

Help us remember Paul V. Lammers today.
Flight Officer, U.S. Army Air Forces
Service # T-061811
349th Bomber Squadron, 100th Bomber Group, Heavy
Entered the Service from: California
Died: May 24, 1944
Buried: Plot B Row 13 Grave 21
Ardennes American Cemetery
Neupre, Belgium
Awards: Air Medal, Purple Heart

Statement in MACR by Fred Cebalo -made in 1945 - follows:
"Circumstances of loss of aircraft: On a raid to Berlin we were hit by fighters, ME 109s. They shot the left wing off. I was thrown back and trapped in the waist, fracturing my right leg. As I was trying to get out, the ship broke at the Ball Turret and tail section, I crawled to the door and jumped. I saw four other chutes as I was going down. I was caught immediately by civilians with a couple of soldiers upon landing. I was taken first to a barn, and then by a civilian to a doctor's house .There I saw the pilot and the tail gunner. When we got together later we came to the conclusion on how the other boys made out. The Navigator (Robison), Toggelier (Grabel) and Engineer (Eason) were killed by the fighters. The pilot (Roeder) and the Co-pilot (Lammers) were blown out of the cockpit. The pilot had a seat type chute but was shot up badly & later died. The co-pilot had no chute on.