Flight Officers: What's the point?

[Panache]

So we have this range of grades for Senior Members called "Flight Officers", a category for those Senior Members who are 18, 19, and 20 years old.

Why?

Why does it exist? 

There's nothing in the regs (unless I missed something) that a Flight Officer can't do that a "regular" CAP officer can, other than drink alcoholic beverage while "off the clock".  The reasoning "we do it because you can't become a 2nd Lieutenant in the RealMilitary™ until you're 21" is irrelevant to us, as we are neither RealMilitary™ nor does CAP officers hold a commission.  And I don't buy the "It's so they can learn leadership skills" reasoning either, as we're supposed to assume that there's some sort of intrinsic maturity difference between a fresh-off-the-street 18-year-old and a fresh-off-the-street 21-year-old.

[Eclipse]

...we're supposed to assume that there's some sort of intrinsic maturity difference between a fresh-off-the-street 18-year-old and a fresh-off-the-street 21-year-old.

Which is generally a fair assumption.  The amount of growth and change that happens yearly up a person's early 20's is somewhat remarkable.

The reality is it's another typical CAP compromise, and serves even less purpose then "normal" CAP grade, but provides for plenty of confusion.

If we accept 18-year olds as senior members, they should be eligible for the same grades as any other senior, regardless of grade.

Another reason everyone should start off "slick" with no special appointments or military equivalents and move up organically.

[arajca]

What I was told it was because the AF did not want under 21yo 2d Lts in CAP.

[lordmonar]

This is just speculation.....but it may just be that...the USAF does not want 18 year old 2d Lts (or higher) out there in CAP land.

That's the story I was told....even way back in '85 when I first joined CAP as a Flight Officer.

It is one of the things that I have problems with CAP's rank and promotion system.

You are right.....if we accept 18 year olds we should allow them the same ranks as everyone else.

I thing the solution though....is not to make them 2d Lts.....but make everyone start at FO's and move up from there. (assuming you don't want to competely revamp the rank system....which we could talk about if you'd like    )

[Panache]

What I was told it was because the AF did not want under 21yo 2d Lts in CAP.

But why?  A CAP Flight Officer, a CAP 2nd Lieutenant, and a CAP Colonel hold the same exact amount of command authority over those in the USAF, Guard, and Reserve:  None.  Zero.  Nada.

I thing the solution though....is not to make them 2d Lts.....but make everyone start at FO's and move up from there.

Personally, I think that's a great idea...

[Eclipse]

I thing the solution though....is not to make them 2d Lts.....but make everyone start at FO's and move up from there.

Personally, I think that's a great idea...

+1 - Where do I sign?

[Angus]

What I was told it was because the AF did not want under 21yo 2d Lts in CAP.

That's what I've heard myself.

[NIN]

It used to be in the military (and may still be, but I doubt it) that you were pretty much "not eligible for a commission" if you were 18 or 19-ish.

(I knew a kid commissioned a Marine 2d Lt at 19 in 2006 after rocking out a BS degree in 2 years. He also had 5500 skydives, AFF/Tandem Instructor  and was a Commercial Multi-engine pilot by then, too... Little bit of an overachiever. I jumped with him when he was 11. His level of "on the ball" at 11 made most 20 year old CAP cadets I know look like drooling morons)

CAP seniors in the 18-20 range were made Warrant Officers back then.  However, when the last USAF warrant retired, CAP got rid of the grade, too, and made them Flight Officers with different insignia (this is circa 1984-1985).  Kind of the same for cadets: A gold pip went from C/WO to C/FO overnight.

If I had to guess, the idea was that the USAF didn't want a zillion 18.5 year old 2Lts (or 19.5 year old 1Lts) running around. Bad enough that you might get a 21 year old Captain with a Spaatz .... (ETA: Back then, a less-than-22-year-old newly-commissioned USAF 2Lt was still pretty rare, too)

[lordmonar]

But why?  A CAP Flight Officer, a CAP 2nd Lieutenant, and a CAP Colonel hold the same exact amount of command authority over those in the USAF, Guard, and Reserve:  None.  Zero.  Nada.

Image.  Same reason why the Fat and Fuzzies can't wear USAF uniforms.   The USAF does not want to have to answer why some "kid" was "impersonating" an officer.

Again...this is speculation based on what I was told of why we have FO's and why we restrict USAF uniforms.

[MIKE]

Yet that same Flight Officer or former C/2d Lt-C/Col) gets an insta-advancement at 21.  So the USAF has a problem with 20 year old 2d Lts, but they don't seem to have an issue with 21 year old Captains who also get insta-Senior CP rated.

Former Insta-1st Lt.

[NIN]

Yet that same Flight Officer or former C/2d Lt-C/Col) gets an insta-advancement at 21.  So the USAF has a problem with 20 year old 2d Lts, but they don't seem to have an issue with 21 year old Captains who also get insta-Senior CP rated.

Former Insta-1st Lt.

I think those are definitely the exceptions. Not the rule.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Army still does commissions at 19 in certain cases.

[Private Investigator]

I am thinking the Army Air Corps / USAF POV re: grade has changed a lot between 1941 and 2014. 

[NIN]

Army still does commissions at 19 in certain cases.

Sure.  WO1s fresh outta WOCS

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Keep the grades but change it to a sort of "warrant" grade for those CAP members who do not want to go through the issues of "command, management," etc.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Keep the grades but change it to a sort of "warrant" grade for those CAP members who do not want to go through the issues of "command, management," etc.

Nah. We just make em NCOs.

[HGjunkie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

[PHall]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Yeah, you might want to read that little note on the first page.  Something about how the article fails to cite any references....

[HGjunkie]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Yeah, you might want to read that little note on the first page.  Something about how the article fails to cite any references....

http://www.goarmy.com/rotc/courses-and-colleges/military-colleges.html

[PHall]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Yeah, you might want to read that little note on the first page.  Something about how the article fails to cite any references....

http://www.goarmy.com/rotc/courses-and-colleges/military-colleges.html

But that's not the wikipedia link you referenced before.   
I'm not arguing the commissioning age question with you, I was just pointing out that the link you referenced was probably not the best one to use.
And since you've now are using a different reference you seem to have received the message.

[HGjunkie]

Both links have most of the same information. Actually, the wikipedia article is nearly copy-pasted from the Goarmy website. Granted, wikipedia isn't perfect but it's a valid resource for information.

[THRAWN]

I sketched this back in January....seems to keep coming back....

Just off the top of my head and with no real planning....

Now what could be done, is this: restructure the SM initial entry program so EVERY new SM serves time as a FO.
0-1 months –SMWOG (Level 1 and all the associated requirements)
1-3- months-FO (Work with mentor in squadron. Learn the tasks for the position the member will be in.)
3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)
7-12 months SFO (Work with mentor at higher level, group or wing and will be eligible to attend SLS PD only)
12 months+ Second Lieutenant or special circumstance promotion. After that, follow the normal progression in 35-5.

At the end of the 12 months, the new member will have a tech rating, have done some schooling in the CAP way of things, and see how things are done at the squadron and wing levels. Basic insignia on the corporate or AF uniforms. Would go pin on for the utilities, since sewing on the tabs every couple of months would just be a drag...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

The Army is the only service that allows someone off the street to earn officer rank without it, if they make it through Warrant Officer School at Fort Rucker (not as easy as it sounds; my ex-brother-in-law washed out in the '80s).  The Army and Marines still have W-1, but the Navy and Coast Guard don't...they put their Warrants directly into CWO (commissioned) status, and I understand one has, with few exceptions, to be at least an E-7 to be considered.

I have an A.A.S. (with honours) degree plus loads of extra credits making me very nearly eligible for a Bachelors.  When I joined the ANG, the recruiter told me that I could apply for a commission...but that part of my contract would entail completing the Bachelors at a state school (where they would foot at least part of the bill) within a (very short) given time.  At that time I was working full time and no way would I have been able to do it (this was long before the advent of Web-based "distance learning").

[lordmonar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

The Army is the only service that allows someone off the street to earn officer rank without it, if they make it through Warrant Officer School at Fort Rucker (not as easy as it sounds; my ex-brother-in-law washed out in the '80s).  The Army and Marines still have W-1, but the Navy and Coast Guard don't...they put their Warrants directly into CWO (commissioned) status, and I understand one has, with few exceptions, to be at least an E-7 to be considered.

A degree is not "required" as in by law....just by policy.   The advanced commissioning program assumes that you will continue with our education to complete your degree.

The NG also has a lot of lee way on who they commission.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Commissioning_Program

You can definitely commission before 21.

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

The Army is the only service that allows someone off the street to earn officer rank without it, if they make it through Warrant Officer School at Fort Rucker (not as easy as it sounds; my ex-brother-in-law washed out in the '80s).  The Army and Marines still have W-1, but the Navy and Coast Guard don't...they put their Warrants directly into CWO (commissioned) status, and I understand one has, with few exceptions, to be at least an E-7 to be considered.

A degree is not "required" as in by law....just by policy.   The advanced commissioning program assumes that you will continue with our education to complete your degree.

The NG also has a lot of lee way on who they commission.

Then it sounds a bit like what the ANG offered me...except the ECP referenced here gives the candidate more time than I was offered.

[antdetroitwallyball]

As it has already been pointed out, there are (generally) enourmous differences in maturity between even 18 and 19, and 19 and 20, and 20 and 21.

I would never support the idea of 18 year old SM who holds the duty position of leading cadets. 18 year olds should not be allowed to be "Adult Leaders" because they are simply not true adults. You can pass a law to make the age of majority 15 if you like, but it will have not effect on the science of human brain development.

I tell people this:

When you are 13, you are the smartest you'll ever be as a teenager. You know your place, for the most part. As you approach 16, 17, 18, you get dumber. The low point is 18. At that point, you have convinced yourself that you are somehow an adult. In fact, you are an experienced CHILD, nothing more. Maybe at 20 we can think of you as an inexperienced ADULT. But even that's a stretch. My squadron has several 17-20 year old cadets. For the most part, they do great as senior cadet leaders. But I don't think most of them really have the maturity to serve as "Adult Leaders."

I find it amusing to often witness a 17 or 18 year old cadet get all huffy and puffy and self-righteous about how some basic cadet 12 year old keeps asking the most inane and irrelavent questions. I think to myself quietly: "6 months ago, you yourself were not too far ahead of that little 12 year old in terms of maturity in behavour."

I don't even support sending 18 year olds to the military. I've seen too many 18 year olds be wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard. No branches are hurting for troops right now. Raise the limit to 21, and have a waiver process for the deserving exception. This, however, is a conversation for elsewhere.

[MSG Mac]

I sketched this back in January....seems to keep coming back....

Just off the top of my head and with no real planning....

Now what could be done, is this: restructure the SM initial entry program so EVERY new SM serves time as a FO.
0-1 months –SMWOG (Level 1 and all the associated requirements)
1-3- months-FO (Work with mentor in squadron. Learn the tasks for the position the member will be in.)
3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)
7-12 months SFO (Work with mentor at higher level, group or wing and will be eligible to attend SLS PD only)
12 months+ Second Lieutenant or special circumstance promotion. After that, follow the normal progression in 35-5.

At the end of the 12 months, the new member will have a tech rating, have done some schooling in the CAP way of things, and see how things are done at the squadron and wing levels. Basic insignia on the corporate or AF uniforms. Would go pin on for the utilities, since sewing on the tabs every couple of months would just be a drag...

Why not use the current FO program (except the age restrictions) until the individual is awarded his/her Davis Award when they would be eligible for 2Lt.

[Garibaldi]

I don't know if there will ever be an acceptable, across-the-board solution to our grade/PD/military experience/professional experience woes. Personally, I think the solution is part of the problem.

We have a mish-mosh of age, educational, professional, and military experience to contend with.

We don't have a very good comparison to deal with.

My own personal opinion is to do it just like the military: join at 18, start as an airman, and at 22 you can either "test out" to an officer role (college experience) or begin your career as a SSGT with proper progression. If you join at 21, if you have college, you can be a 2nd Lt. If not, you can be an NCO.  Start out at SSGT and make the progression in line with Ma Blue. Flight Officer grades would be for those in a specialty, such as comm or ground team leader or mission observer, as an example.

If you join at an advanced age, there can be allowances given for life experience, but not the "instant captain or lieutenant colonel" unless the member holds advanced medical or legal degrees, similar to the Medical Corps or the JAG/Adjutant General corps.

Squadron Commanders who do not hold a commensurate grade as their RM counterparts would take a temporary promotion, while being allowed to progress through their PD and levels. Once their term of service is over, they would be able to either revert to their previous grade or promote based on their progression during that time, if any. If a SMNCO takes the post, he would be given a temporary "commission" and when his/her term is up, same rule applies. Revert back to NCO and promote based on PD and TIG.

I know there is a lot to be fleshed out with this but it's just one option among many. The NCOs and FOs would be the ones doing the "grunt" work, while the pilots, lawyers and HSOs would be the officer types.

[LSThiker]

Without a four-year degree?  As I understand it, you cannot get commissioned in any service without that, except as a Navy LDO(?).

For the Army, it depends.  If you are commission through ROTC, a four-year degree is required.  If you are commissioning through OCS, then only 90-hours are required.  However, in order to be promoted to Captain, a bachelors degree is required.  If you are a direct commission (minus Medical which requires a four-year degree), then you have 30-days to complete a degree completion plan.

1–10. Educational requirements
a. An original appointment as a commissioned officer, other than a warrant officers (WOs), in the RA in the basic branches may be given only to a person who has a baccalaureate degree, except Officer Candidate School (OCS) graduates who have completed 90 semester hours of college study and who are able to complete a baccalaureate degree from an accredited educational institution prior to the consideration by the captain promotion board.
(1) OCS candidates who do not already have a degree must have an approved college degree completion plan in place prior to graduation and commissioning.
(2) OCS candidates will coordinate with their education support center for development of their plan prior to OCS attendance.
b. Direct appointees who do not already have a baccalaureate degree must have a degree completion plan within 30 days of appointment. Direct appointees will meet with their education support center for development of their plan within 30 days of appointment. College degree completion plans will include the type of degree, a timeline for completion, and an agreement from an accredited university.

[Panache]

3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)

Problem with that is different specialties have different time-in-service amounts.  Safety and Communications, for example, have six months.  ES and PAO has one year.

[Mitchell 1969]

Army still does commissions at 19 in certain cases.

Sure.  WO1s fresh outta WOCS

Except WO1s aren't commissioned, are they? (I thought that commissioning started at CW2).

At any rate, know at least 3 guys who were commissioned as 2LTs before age 21, through ROTC. One was 19, the others were 20. They did it via NMMI - New Mexico Military Institute, a "Junior Military College." They graduated with AA degrees and Reserve commissions.

The setup is like this: while they only complete the first two years of college, they actually complete the last two years of ROTC. They attended the ROTC summer camp right after high school, went to NMMI and did the last two years of ROTC.

It was a little known shortcut years ago. The trap, though, is that they have to complete the 4 year degree before going on active duty - but they get to do so as Reserve lieutenants. I can't remember which, but they either had to have the BS/BA before promoting to captain, or could go no higher than captain.

I think they have taken some AA grad NMMI commissioned 2LTs on active duty during Vietnam, but I'm not positive, just something that I remember from a long-ago conversation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

WO-1's are not commissioned; they are granted their rank by a "warrant" by the Secretary of the Army or Navy (for the Marine Corps).

The Navy and Coast Guard do not use WO-1's; they start their warrant grades directly at CWO-2, which is commissioned rank.

That said, I am sure that enlisted/NCO personnel will salute an Army/Marine WO-1.  I would have.

[NIN]

WO-1's are not commissioned; they are granted their rank by a "warrant" by the Secretary of the Army or Navy (for the Marine Corps).

That has changed.

Warrant officers now hold a commission.

Shawn Stanford (from CadetStuff) is now a CW2. When he was made a WO1, it was a big deal about how warrants are commissioned now.

BIMD, (mine was a Friday) the WITD was warrants couldn't "command" anything because they weren't commissioned.  Tell that to the CW2 or CW3 who was the commander of the transition point at Oakland Army Base.  LOL

[RogueLeader]

3-7 months TFO (obtain tech rating/Davis Award)

Problem with that is different specialties have different time-in-service amounts.  Safety and Communications, for example, have six months.  ES and PAO has one year.

Not to mention that in order to get your Davis, you need SLS.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

BIMD, (mine was a Friday) the WITD was warrants couldn't "command" anything because they weren't commissioned.  Tell that to the CW2 or CW3 who was the commander of the transition point at Oakland Army Base.  LOL

I thought the commissioning began at CW2.

As for commanding...back in the early '80s my ex-brother-in-law (the same one who washed out of Fort Rucker) worked on a surveillance site on the DMZ in Korea (which he called "the scariest thing I've ever done").  The commander of his "mountain peak" was a warrant officer.

My dad told me that back in the late '50s, when he was in the Army in (West) Germany, the commander of the base motor pool was a grizzled old CWO.  He told me the story of this brand-new Lt. Fuzz second lieutenant fresh out of West Point who almost nobody liked...apparently said butterbar went to the motor pool for something and the grizzled old CWO said, "Son, what the hell are you doing in my motor pool?"

[Mitchell 1969]

WO-1's are not commissioned; they are granted their rank by a "warrant" by the Secretary of the Army or Navy (for the Marine Corps).

That has changed.

Warrant officers now hold a commission.

Shawn Stanford (from CadetStuff) is now a CW2. When he was made a WO1, it was a big deal about how warrants are commissioned now.

BIMD, (mine was a Friday) the WITD was warrants couldn't "command" anything because they weren't commissioned.  Tell that to the CW2 or CW3 who was the commander of the transition point at Oakland Army Base.  LOL

Well..... if we can believe what it says at these sites, it didn't change:

http://www.defense.gov/about/insignias/officers.aspx

http://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/become-an-officer/army-officer-jobs.html

(Both sites support the contention that WO1s are NOT commissioned, while CW2 through CW5 are commissioned).

[HGjunkie]

Candidates who successfully complete Warrant Officer Candidate School are appointed in the grade of Warrant Officer One. When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts. However, warrant officers remain single-specialty officers whose career track is oriented towards progressing within their career field rather than focusing on increased levels of command and staff duty positions

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/wocc/woprogram.asp#gradestructure

[Bobble]

As it has already been pointed out, there are (generally) enourmous differences in maturity between even 18 and 19, and 19 and 20, and 20 and 21.

I would never support the idea of 18 year old SM who holds the duty position of leading cadets. 18 year olds should not be allowed to be "Adult Leaders" because they are simply not true adults. You can pass a law to make the age of majority 15 if you like, but it will have not effect on the science of human brain development.

I tell people this:

When you are 13, you are the smartest you'll ever be as a teenager. You know your place, for the most part. As you approach 16, 17, 18, you get dumber. The low point is 18. At that point, you have convinced yourself that you are somehow an adult. In fact, you are an experienced CHILD, nothing more. Maybe at 20 we can think of you as an inexperienced ADULT. But even that's a stretch. My squadron has several 17-20 year old cadets. For the most part, they do great as senior cadet leaders. But I don't think most of them really have the maturity to serve as "Adult Leaders."

I find it amusing to often witness a 17 or 18 year old cadet get all huffy and puffy and self-righteous about how some basic cadet 12 year old keeps asking the most inane and irrelavent questions. I think to myself quietly: "6 months ago, you yourself were not too far ahead of that little 12 year old in terms of maturity in behavour."

I don't even support sending 18 year olds to the military. I've seen too many 18 year olds be wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard. No branches are hurting for troops right now. Raise the limit to 21, and have a waiver process for the deserving exception. This, however, is a conversation for elsewhere.

Interesting point of view.  I wonder if the "17 - 20 year old cadets" in your squadron that you interact with know that you feel this way.  Well, they probably know now, right?  People (yes, even those people with the "teenager" label affixed) often live up to the expectations placed on them.  If you aren't expecting much in the way of maturity from that age group, they'll probably be more than happy to oblige and (barely) meet whatever minimal expectations you might have.

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

As a former CGAuxie, living in a city with a cutter ported, a Small Boat Station, and an Air Station a few hours away...such a remark would NOT go down well here.

[AirDX]

Here's a Flight Officer that had a pretty good point:

Help us remember Paul V. Lammers today.
Flight Officer, U.S. Army Air Forces
Service # T-061811
349th Bomber Squadron, 100th Bomber Group, Heavy
Entered the Service from: California
Died: May 24, 1944
Buried: Plot B Row 13 Grave 21
Ardennes American Cemetery
Neupre, Belgium
Awards: Air Medal, Purple Heart

Statement in MACR by Fred Cebalo -made in 1945 - follows:
"Circumstances of loss of aircraft: On a raid to Berlin we were hit by fighters, ME 109s. They shot the left wing off. I was thrown back and trapped in the waist, fracturing my right leg. As I was trying to get out, the ship broke at the Ball Turret and tail section, I crawled to the door and jumped. I saw four other chutes as I was going down. I was caught immediately by civilians with a couple of soldiers upon landing. I was taken first to a barn, and then by a civilian to a doctor's house .There I saw the pilot and the tail gunner. When we got together later we came to the conclusion on how the other boys made out. The Navigator (Robison), Toggelier (Grabel) and Engineer (Eason) were killed by the fighters. The pilot (Roeder) and the Co-pilot (Lammers) were blown out of the cockpit. The pilot had a seat type chute but was shot up badly & later died. The co-pilot had no chute on.

[DoubleSecret]

Candidates who successfully complete Warrant Officer Candidate School are appointed in the grade of Warrant Officer One. When promoted to Chief Warrant Officer Two, warrant officers are commissioned by the President and have the same legal status as their traditional commissioned officer counterparts. However, warrant officers remain single-specialty officers whose career track is oriented towards progressing within their career field rather than focusing on increased levels of command and staff duty positions

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/wocc/woprogram.asp#gradestructure

§571. Warrant officers: grades
(a) The regular warrant officer grades in the armed forces corresponding to the pay grades prescribed for warrant officers by section 201(b) of title 37 are as follows:

Warrant officer grade:
Chief warrant officer, W–5.
Chief warrant officer, W–4.
Chief warrant officer, W–3.
Chief warrant officer, W–2.
Warrant officer, W–1.

(b) Appointments in the grade of regular warrant officer, W–1, shall be made by warrant, except that with respect to an armed force under the jurisdiction of the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary concerned may provide by regulation that appointments in that grade in that armed force shall be made by commission. Appointments in regular chief warrant officer grades shall be made by commission by the President, and appointments (whether by warrant or commission) in the grade of regular warrant officer, W–1, shall be made by the President, except that appointments in that grade in the Coast Guard shall be made by the Secretary concerned.
(c) An appointment may not be made in any of the armed forces in the regular warrant officer grade of chief warrant officer, W–5, if the appointment would result in more than 5 percent of the warrant officers of that armed force on active duty being in the grade of chief warrant officer, W–5. In computing the limitation prescribed in the preceding sentence, there shall be excluded warrant officers described in section 582 of this title.
(Added Pub. L. 102–190, div. A, title XI, §1112(a), Dec. 5, 1991, 105 Stat. 1493; amended Pub. L. 102–484, div. A, title X, §1052(2), Oct. 23, 1992, 106 Stat. 2499; Pub. L. 103–337, div. A, title V, §541(a)(2), Oct. 5, 1994, 108 Stat. 2764; Pub. L. 111–383, div. A, title V, §502(a), Jan. 7, 2011, 124 Stat. 4207.)

It's possible to be a commissioned W-1.  Depends how each service secretary wants to do it.

[Brit_in_CAP]

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

As a former CGAuxie, living in a city with a cutter ported, a Small Boat Station, and an Air Station a few hours away...such a remark would NOT go down well here.

+1 for me.

Daughter serves in the USCG...the passage is downright insulting.
That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion...

[Garibaldi]

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

As a former CGAuxie, living in a city with a cutter ported, a Small Boat Station, and an Air Station a few hours away...such a remark would NOT go down well here.

+1 for me.

Daughter serves in the USCG...the passage is downright insulting.
That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing opinion among the military men and women I have worked with. I am not sure why Coasties are looked down upon by the other services, but they are.

There was a guy I worked with at AT&T a few years back who was alternately proud and disdainful of his CG time. He was in for I guess 4 years and was boasting about his "military service" around the four or five recently separated Soldiers who also happened to work with us. They, in no uncertain terms, told him that the Coast Guard was NOT a military organization, that the Treasury department was NOT connected to the DoD, and that the only connection to the military was the grade and ratings. Since I was not in CAP at the time, and do not recognize my own "time" (one month, 4 days) as having served in the Army, I kept my mouth shut. Any time this poor sap opened his mouth about "...when I was in the military" he was roundly shouted down.

I wonder why this is so. Unfortunately, the hierarchy among the "uniformed" services is such that the Coast Guard is ranked below the Boy Scouts in terms of respect by the military people I've met is sad.

[Brit_in_CAP]

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

As a former CGAuxie, living in a city with a cutter ported, a Small Boat Station, and an Air Station a few hours away...such a remark would NOT go down well here.

+1 for me.

Daughter serves in the USCG...the passage is downright insulting.
That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing opinion among the military men and women I have worked with. I am not sure why Coasties are looked down upon by the other services, but they are.

There was a guy I worked with at AT&T a few years back who was alternately proud and disdainful of his CG time. He was in for I guess 4 years and was boasting about his "military service" around the four or five recently separated Soldiers who also happened to work with us. They, in no uncertain terms, told him that the Coast Guard was NOT a military organization, that the Treasury department was NOT connected to the DoD, and that the only connection to the military was the grade and ratings. Since I was not in CAP at the time, and do not recognize my own "time" (one month, 4 days) as having served in the Army, I kept my mouth shut. Any time this poor sap opened his mouth about "...when I was in the military" he was roundly shouted down.

I wonder why this is so. Unfortunately, the hierarchy among the "uniformed" services is such that the Coast Guard is ranked below the Boy Scouts in terms of respect by the military people I've met is sad.

Interesting.

I've been around a large number of Marines - #1 son serves in the Corps - and I've found them to be very respectful and supportive of the CG (before they know that we have a Coastie in the family); I've met several who've changed service to the CG when they ran into an up or out wall or their spouse called 'time' on the endless deployments.

I've also encountered any number of people like the ones Garibaldi has met.

In the end, I think the CG being passed from department to department hasn't helped their cause.

Who knows, to be honest!

[PHall]

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

As a former CGAuxie, living in a city with a cutter ported, a Small Boat Station, and an Air Station a few hours away...such a remark would NOT go down well here.

+1 for me.

Daughter serves in the USCG...the passage is downright insulting.
That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing opinion among the military men and women I have worked with. I am not sure why Coasties are looked down upon by the other services, but they are.

There was a guy I worked with at AT&T a few years back who was alternately proud and disdainful of his CG time. He was in for I guess 4 years and was boasting about his "military service" around the four or five recently separated Soldiers who also happened to work with us. They, in no uncertain terms, told him that the Coast Guard was NOT a military organization, that the Treasury department was NOT connected to the DoD, and that the only connection to the military was the grade and ratings. Since I was not in CAP at the time, and do not recognize my own "time" (one month, 4 days) as having served in the Army, I kept my mouth shut. Any time this poor sap opened his mouth about "...when I was in the military" he was roundly shouted down.

I wonder why this is so. Unfortunately, the hierarchy among the "uniformed" services is such that the Coast Guard is ranked below the Boy Scouts in terms of respect by the military people I've met is sad.

Interesting.

I've been around a large number of Marines - #1 son serves in the Corps - and I've found them to be very respectful and supportive of the CG (before they know that we have a Coastie in the family); I've met several who've changed service to the CG when they ran into an up or out wall or their spouse called 'time' on the endless deployments.

I've also encountered any number of people like the ones Garibaldi has met.

In the end, I think the CG being passed from department to department hasn't helped their cause.

Who knows, to be honest!

But to the folks the Coast Guard rescues, there are no better people on the planet.
Go some place like Alaska and say something bad about the Coasties and you'll probably end up with a fat lip.

[Brit_in_CAP]

And that "...wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard." passage?  Ouch!

As a former CGAuxie, living in a city with a cutter ported, a Small Boat Station, and an Air Station a few hours away...such a remark would NOT go down well here.

+1 for me.

Daughter serves in the USCG...the passage is downright insulting.
That said, everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing opinion among the military men and women I have worked with. I am not sure why Coasties are looked down upon by the other services, but they are.

There was a guy I worked with at AT&T a few years back who was alternately proud and disdainful of his CG time. He was in for I guess 4 years and was boasting about his "military service" around the four or five recently separated Soldiers who also happened to work with us. They, in no uncertain terms, told him that the Coast Guard was NOT a military organization, that the Treasury department was NOT connected to the DoD, and that the only connection to the military was the grade and ratings. Since I was not in CAP at the time, and do not recognize my own "time" (one month, 4 days) as having served in the Army, I kept my mouth shut. Any time this poor sap opened his mouth about "...when I was in the military" he was roundly shouted down.

I wonder why this is so. Unfortunately, the hierarchy among the "uniformed" services is such that the Coast Guard is ranked below the Boy Scouts in terms of respect by the military people I've met is sad.

Interesting.

I've been around a large number of Marines - #1 son serves in the Corps - and I've found them to be very respectful and supportive of the CG (before they know that we have a Coastie in the family); I've met several who've changed service to the CG when they ran into an up or out wall or their spouse called 'time' on the endless deployments.

I've also encountered any number of people like the ones Garibaldi has met.

In the end, I think the CG being passed from department to department hasn't helped their cause.

Who knows, to be honest!

But to the folks the Coast Guard rescues, there are no better people on the planet.
Go some place like Alaska and say something bad about the Coasties and you'll probably end up with a fat lip.

:clap: :clap:

Couldn't put it better!!

[antdetroitwallyball]

As it has already been pointed out, there are (generally) enourmous differences in maturity between even 18 and 19, and 19 and 20, and 20 and 21.

I would never support the idea of 18 year old SM who holds the duty position of leading cadets. 18 year olds should not be allowed to be "Adult Leaders" because they are simply not true adults. You can pass a law to make the age of majority 15 if you like, but it will have not effect on the science of human brain development.

I tell people this:

When you are 13, you are the smartest you'll ever be as a teenager. You know your place, for the most part. As you approach 16, 17, 18, you get dumber. The low point is 18. At that point, you have convinced yourself that you are somehow an adult. In fact, you are an experienced CHILD, nothing more. Maybe at 20 we can think of you as an inexperienced ADULT. But even that's a stretch. My squadron has several 17-20 year old cadets. For the most part, they do great as senior cadet leaders. But I don't think most of them really have the maturity to serve as "Adult Leaders."

I find it amusing to often witness a 17 or 18 year old cadet get all huffy and puffy and self-righteous about how some basic cadet 12 year old keeps asking the most inane and irrelavent questions. I think to myself quietly: "6 months ago, you yourself were not too far ahead of that little 12 year old in terms of maturity in behavour."

I don't even support sending 18 year olds to the military. I've seen too many 18 year olds be wholly unready to even handle the Coast Guard. No branches are hurting for troops right now. Raise the limit to 21, and have a waiver process for the deserving exception. This, however, is a conversation for elsewhere.

Interesting point of view.  I wonder if the "17 - 20 year old cadets" in your squadron that you interact with know that you feel this way.  Well, they probably know now, right?  People (yes, even those people with the "teenager" label affixed) often live up to the expectations placed on them.  If you aren't expecting much in the way of maturity from that age group, they'll probably be more than happy to oblige and (barely) meet whatever minimal expectations you might have.

First, I don't name others and I don't identify myself. No one is being singled out here.

Second, I think it's important that cadets in leadership roles are regularily reminded about how their own personal growth occurred. The whole point of adult leadership in the cadet program is to keep the senior cadet leaders grounded. That's about it. Beyond that, they can pretty much run their own program. So, I'm not sure where your issue with me on all this is.

Daughter serves in the USCG

I appreciate the service of your daughter.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They, in no uncertain terms, told him that the Coast Guard was NOT a military organization, that the Treasury department was NOT connected to the DoD, and that the only connection to the military was the grade and ratings.

Then they, in no uncertain terms, were fools.

The Coast Guard is "at all times an armed service of the United States" and can be moved to the control of the Department of the Navy in time of war or as the President directs.  In terms of size, the USCG is by itself the world's 12th largest naval force.

All Coast Guard personnel are at all times subject to the UCMJ.

I would like someone from another service who disparages the USCG to try and get away with not saluting one of their commissioned/warrant officers.

The Marines really like them...because a lot of the LST's that deposited Marines on various Pacific islands were crewed by Coasties.  One of them, Signalman Douglas Munro, earned the USCG's only (to date) MoH.

One of these twits who say "the CG isn't military" should tell it to this person...

Just 8 Weeks: USCG Boot Camp - 2

[a2capt]

[Flying Pig]

They, in no uncertain terms, told him that the Coast Guard was NOT a military organization, that the Treasury department was NOT connected to the DoD, and that the only connection to the military was the grade and ratings.

Then they, in no uncertain terms, were fools.

The Coast Guard is "at all times an armed service of the United States" and can be moved to the control of the Department of the Navy in time of war or as the President directs.  In terms of size, the USCG is by itself the world's 12th largest naval force.

All Coast Guard personnel are at all times subject to the UCMJ.

I would like someone from another service who disparages the USCG to try and get away with not saluting one of their commissioned/warrant officers.

The Marines really like them...because a lot of the LST's that deposited Marines on various Pacific islands were crewed by Coasties.  One of them, Signalman Douglas Munro, earned the USCG's only (to date) MoH.

One of these twits who say "the CG isn't military" should tell it to this person...

Just 8 Weeks: USCG Boot Camp - 2

Looks like my police academy   You cant get all fired up over inter-service rivalry or other negative comments.  People bash the air force for being like a bunch of civilians, bash the Navy for all sorts of homosexual submarine jokes, Marines for not being able to read or write, Army for being all the left overs who couldn't get into any of the other services, CG for being non-mil....  none of it matters. 

When I was in the Marines the "joke" I always heard about the Coast Guard when we were all bored 19 year old infantryman sitting in the barracks was "Well, if you wanted to shoot people with your .50cal you should have joined the Coast Guard."   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Of course.  I've heard the comments about the "Chair Force," as I imagine most of us have, as well as the comments about the Navy being the Marines' "taxi service."

However, to say the CG is not an armed service is just incorrect.

And you could leave your police academy training (and I respect those...there was one not too far from me one place I lived where they trained State Troopers) just by saying "I quit" (correct me if I'm wrong, please).  You cannot do that at Cape May.

[Panache]

I've always seen it as good-natured rivalry and not actual disdain. 

"Why do you have to be at least six feet tall to join the Coast Guard?  So you can walk back to shore if your boat sinks."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Joke taken, although the Canadian CG is not military; they are part of the Crown Civil Service.

[Panache]

Joke taken, although the Canadian CG is not military; they are part of the Crown Civil Service.

I just thought it was a funny picture, the be honest.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The CCG would probably find it funny, too.

[Flying Pig]

Of course.  I've heard the comments about the "Chair Force," as I imagine most of us have, as well as the comments about the Navy being the Marines' "taxi service."

However, to say the CG is not an armed service is just incorrect.

And you could leave your police academy training (and I respect those...there was one not too far from me one place I lived where they trained State Troopers) just by saying "I quit" (correct me if I'm wrong, please).  You cannot do that at Cape May.

You don't even have to say "I quite". .  I rememeber many times being thrashed between classes, down in the push up position being told we would make terrible beat partners  blah blah blah... And people just standing up, wiping their hands off and walking to their cars and driving away.   Nobody ever said a word, never mentioned it, instructors never acknowledged it in front of us.  By the time we got back I to class all their books were gone, name placard was gone... Poooof.  Gone.

[JeffDG]

Joke taken, although the Canadian CG is not military; they are part of the Crown Civil Service.

Just like the USCG is part of the DHS, not the DoD.

[GroundHawg]

My last unit has a female cadet who graduated HS at 15, is now in her senior year of college at 18, has been enrolled in both AF ROTC and CAP the whole time and will be commissioning at the age of 18 this fall. Last I heard she was going as a ABM but was on a wait list for flight school.
You only have to be 14... yes 14 to take university level ROTC classes.

I have read more than once of young men and women graduating college and HS at the same time, and think I read of a girl in FL that graduated college BEFORE graduating HS this year. Age is just a number.

[arajca]

She is an exception, not the norm. Rules are made for the norm, not the exception.

In any case, AFAIK, the AF has decreed no CAP officers under 21. Therefore, we have Flight Officers.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Joke taken, although the Canadian CG is not military; they are part of the Crown Civil Service.

Just like the USCG is part of the DHS, not the DoD.

However, the USCG is under the UCMJ at all times.  As I understand it, the CCG does not come under Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Forces.

You don't even have to say "I quite". .  I rememeber many times being thrashed between classes, down in the push up position being told we would make terrible beat partners  blah blah blah... And people just standing up, wiping their hands off and walking to their cars and driving away.   Nobody ever said a word, never mentioned it, instructors never acknowledged it in front of us.  By the time we got back I to class all their books were gone, name placard was gone... Poooof.  Gone.

Well...for those who could not handle the strenuous training of being a law enforcement officer (and I have a good friend who is now going on 30 years in the field - he started as a jail officer, moved up to Patrolman, and is now a Detective)...I suppose that is the best way to handle those who leave/quit/are pushed.

[Flying Pig]

I would actually say most quit vs being dropped.  We started with 46 and graduated 22.  Funny thing is that I don't remember any of the people who dropped.  And some dropped months into training.  I know one was hired by the CHP and dropped to go attend their academy.  But most academies are affiliated with a college.  So in reality, all you are doing is attending a college class.  Im going on 16 years sworn, and now Im a civilian LE pilot.  Ill get back sworn probably this year, Ive just been pretty busy at work getting some people trained up so I cant take a month off to go to the transition academy for CA -> FL certs

[Майор Хаткевич]

Takes a month? Laws that different?

[a2capt]

Wow, really? I would have thought they'd have done that first. So you can land it, and do no more than anyone else, except you've got a radio ..

[Майор Хаткевич]

Maybe they didn't have the funds...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

FP: Do you fly helos, fixed-wing or both?

[Mitchell 1969]

Of course.  I've heard the comments about the "Chair Force," as I imagine most of us have, as well as the comments about the Navy being the Marines' "taxi service."

However, to say the CG is not an armed service is just incorrect.

And you could leave your police academy training (and I respect those...there was one not too far from me one place I lived where they trained State Troopers) just by saying "I quit" (correct me if I'm wrong, please).  You cannot do that at Cape May.

You don't even have to say "I quite". .  I rememeber many times being thrashed between classes, down in the push up position being told we would make terrible beat partners  blah blah blah... And people just standing up, wiping their hands off and walking to their cars and driving away.   Nobody ever said a word, never mentioned it, instructors never acknowledged it in front of us.  By the time we got back I to class all their books were gone, name placard was gone... Poooof.  Gone.

I've seen them walk away from the police academy during the first two hours of day one.

[Mitchell 1969]

Takes a month? Laws that different?

It's not just black letter laws that are different. Case law decisions vary from state to state and between federal circuits. Also, most rorqual courses contain training to pass the end of academy exam and pass seraphim less defense, cuffing, range qualification.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I thought, at least at the federal level, previous case law is used in rulings. Ned?

[Ned]

I thought, at least at the federal level, previous case law is used in rulings. Ned?

Over 98% of the criminal law enforcement (including statutes and case law) is a state and local matter.  For the average cop on the street, Federal law and decisions aren't really a factor.

For legal trivia guys like me, state laws can and do vary significantly over this magnificent country.  As just a couple of examples, in some states marijuana possession is still a felony and in others you can't even get arrested for it.  Similarly, things like firearm possession laws vary significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

But bottom line, criminal law is almost exclusively a state law concern.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

All right, Colonel, since you have offered your input...

I live not far from an international border.  Every now and then you'll hear about some numb-nut trying to smuggle various "substances" into the country, and almost inevitably CBP, with its detection devices, dogs and other gee-whiz James Bond things, makes their entry into the United States somewhat inconvenient.

Is that always a purely Federal matter, or do CBP, who are Federal officers, hand over to State authorities once the arrest has been made?

[Ned]

Is that always a purely Federal matter, or do CBP, who are Federal officers, hand over to State authorities once the arrest has been made?

Actual border violations are one of the few areas the Feds own fairly exclusively (along with immigration-related crimes and crimes committed on "federal enclave jurisdictions" like most AD military bases).  However, when it comes to routine drug stuff, it is common for the DEA and others to bring cases to local prosecutors.  As I understand it, the US Attorneys have guidelines that result in many cases investigated by Federal officers being referred to the locals.

A lot of serious law enforcement stuff is conducted by joint Federal / state / local "task forces" that include representatives from a wide variety of agencies, depending on their focus.  Sometimes the choice is as simple as the lead cop estimating whether a given case might receive a longer sentence in state or Federal courts.

As you can imagine, relationships between the Feds and the locals are vary significantly, which might also affect where a given case is filed.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Thanks.  I hear about this now and then and just wondered how it was handled.

Over in Her Majesty's Dominion of Canada, I think CBSA just hands them over to the RCMP.

[Mitchell 1969]

I thought, at least at the federal level, previous case law is used in rulings. Ned?

Over 98% of the criminal law enforcement (including statutes and case law) is a state and local matter.  For the average cop on the street, Federal law and decisions aren't really a factor.

For legal trivia guys like me, state laws can and do vary significantly over this magnificent country.  As just a couple of examples, in some states marijuana possession is still a felony and in others you can't even get arrested for it.  Similarly, things like firearm possession laws vary significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

But bottom line, criminal law is almost exclusively a state law concern.

There are a number of crimes that are both state and federal crimes, which can be prosecuted in either jurisdiction. In fact, they can be prosecuted in BOTH systems. (I know the first non-lawyer/non-cop reaction to that is typically "Nuh-uh, double jeopardy." Which, of course, it isn't - both sovereign powers can prosecute for the same act).

In fact, some actions can get a triple whammy. A great example is carrying firearms past the screening checkpoint at airports. You can get slammed in federal criminal court, state criminal court and a federal "administrative proceeding" which results in a fiscal penalty only.

Practically, though, unless it's a headline grabber or huge amount of seized money involved, the federal prosecutors "decline to prosecute at this time," leaving it to the DA or City attorney to bring it to state court. And a goodly number of those never get there, for various reasons. That leaves the federal administrative proceeding - and they almost always get their bucks.

[MHC5096]

CBP border seizures involving drugs initially get referred to ICE-HSI for federal prosecution. Unless the seizure is extremely large ICE-HSI typically declines prosecution. At that point, CBP will usually turn the case over to the state. Back when I was working the line, we usually ended turning the whole thing over to the New York State Police.

[Flying Pig]

FP: Do you fly helos, fixed-wing or both?

Wow.... sorry I didnt make it back for all of this   CyBorg, Im a dual rated CFI.  On the airplane side, mostly the C206 and the 182.  On the helicopter side, UH1H, Jet Ranger and the MD500.

As far as the academy, the cross over academy is about 3 weeks or so depending on what academy you choose, then I take the state test to get my FL LE Certification.  As far as laws being different, yes.... they can be quite different.  What may be a felony in CA could be completely legal in FL particularly with weapons laws. Crime fighting is crime fighting, but I cant be running around with my CA laws in my head chasing down people in FL.  Good way to get sued.  As far as me being a civilian pilot, I fly with a Deputy observer.

[SARDOC]

Of course.  I've heard the comments about the "Chair Force," as I imagine most of us have, as well as the comments about the Navy being the Marines' "taxi service."

However, to say the CG is not an armed service is just incorrect.

And you could leave your police academy training (and I respect those...there was one not too far from me one place I lived where they trained State Troopers) just by saying "I quit" (correct me if I'm wrong, please).  You cannot do that at Cape May.

You don't even have to say "I quite". .  I rememeber many times being thrashed between classes, down in the push up position being told we would make terrible beat partners  blah blah blah... And people just standing up, wiping their hands off and walking to their cars and driving away.   Nobody ever said a word, never mentioned it, instructors never acknowledged it in front of us.  By the time we got back I to class all their books were gone, name placard was gone... Poooof.  Gone.

I've seen them walk away from the police academy during the first two hours of day one.

The Police Academy in the city where I worked for the Fire Department was notorious for having multiple traffic cops on the main road that led into the Academy on Day one...they were making the point that they are subject to the same laws that they are being asked to enforce.   any police recruits that were stopped for Expired safety Inspection/registration, speeding>5mph over the limit were referred to the Academy Staff... There weren't many recruits who escaped some kind of criticism on that morning... a number of recruits didn't make it through those first few hours.

[gshayd]

In order to qualify for OCS in the Army you must be between the ages of 19 and 28 and a college graduate with a four year degree as an active duty member or a civilian.  I do not know of too many 19 year olds with a college degree.  I know that people have earned college degrees while not being at the age of majority.  If they are 19 and have a Bachelors degree then they may be an exceptional person who could be a good 2LT.  So if you have a person who has been through the cadet program and has x hours of College he might be ready to be a 2LT. A condition of his appointment as a 2LT is that he gets a degree or completes 60 hours of College.  I learned some basic skills in College and how to regurgitate answers but I also learned to ask questions and research problems for my Bachelors Degree. a 2LT is not a finished product but a work in progress who usually has a mentor(s). However, the regulation says you must be 21 to be a Officer in the Civil Air Patrol. I think that the FO status is kind ol Like a CAP OCS.

[GroundHawg]

In order to qualify for OCS in the Army you must be between the ages of 19 and 28 and a college graduate with a four year degree as an active duty member or a civilian.  I do not know of too many 19 year olds with a college degree.  I know that people have earned college degrees while not being at the age of majority.  If they are 19 and have a Bachelors degree then they may be an exceptional person who could be a good 2LT.  So if you have a person who has been through the cadet program and has x hours of College he might be ready to be a 2LT. A condition of his appointment as a 2LT is that he gets a degree or completes 60 hours of College.  I learned some basic skills in College and how to regurgitate answers but I also learned to ask questions and research problems for my Bachelors Degree. a 2LT is not a finished product but a work in progress who usually has a mentor(s). However, the regulation says you must be 21 to be a Officer in the Civil Air Patrol. I think that the FO status is kind ol Like a CAP OCS.

THIS is a great answer and a great concept for the FO program that I will be using from now on. Thanks for your input!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Kind of non-concur on the FO/OCS comparison.

If it were that way, ALL CAP officer candidates would be required to go through it...and I don't think that's a bad thing.