Change 2 to CAPR 39-2

[Storm Chaser]

Has anyone noticed Change 2 to CAPR 39-2, which NHQ published last week.

h.     Prospective cadets visiting a traditional unit must participate in a trial period by attending three weekly squadron meetings before requesting membership. Unit commanders will not approve membership applications (online or in paper form) until the prospective cadet has attended his or her third squadron meeting. Commanders of school-sponsored units possessing an 800-series charter number will set a trial period appropriate for that school unit's program environment, in coordination with the school principal. Prospective cadets may not explore CAP without joining for longer than 30 days. (emphasis mine)

The change goes on listing a series of activities (very inclusive, I may add) in which a cadet can participate during the trial period. It also lists those which are prohibited. Mostly common sense stuff.

[Eclipse]

Probably about time.  3 weeks of visits has been a "best practice" for a lot of units with the
flipside being (apparently) many not making common sense decisions about what prospective
cadets are allowed to do.

This might curtail a lot of the issue of empty shirts.

"(1) During the trial period, unit commanders will only permit prospective cadets to
participate in cadet activities that are not physically rigorous, including classroom activities, drill and
ceremonies, basic calisthenics and jogging, and low-impact field activities such as rocketry, simple
orienteering, volleyball, and similar endeavors, provided the young person reports to have no physical
limitations or injuries. 

(2) Prospective cadets are prohibited from participating in overnight activities, flying, riding
in CAP vehicles, participating in physically-rigorous field activities such as hiking and obstacle course,
and participating in any activity that would qualify as "high adventure" per CAPR 52-16, chapter 2. "

[Storm Chaser]

I agree that it's a "best practice", but I don't think it should be regulated. Some cadets may be ready to go "full throttle" after the first or second meeting. I personally know several who joined right away and have gone far in the program. Heck, I joined as a cadet after my meeting. Commanders should be allowed to make that determination.

[Eclipse]

Honestly, how many kids, or their parents, really know what CAP is all about on a first visit?

Just like the pipeline idea, if a kid won't come back for three meetings, how invested is he really in being a cadet?
It has to be some number, they picked three.  I like CC discretion, but don't really have a huge issue with three.

Should probably be three for seniors as well.

[JeffDG]

I agree that it's a "best practice", but I don't think it should be regulated. Some cadets may be ready to go "full throttle" after the first or second meeting. I personally know several who joined right away and have gone far in the program. Heck, I joined as a cadet after my meeting. Commanders should be allowed to make that determination.

That's cute....thinking that commanders can use discretion when someone at NHQ can write a rule making the decision for them.

[coudano]

anybody who is 'ready to go' after 2 meetings isn't going to be killed by waiting 7 more days.
or 14.

the application could sit on the commander's approval queue that long, even after the third meeting...

in light of some of the other changes on the table, this aint no big deal.



I'm not quite clear on how this plays against pipelining recruiting strategy though...
To squadrons that pipeline, do you just make cadets who haven't met the pipeline cutoff date visit at least 3 times sometime before the pipeline start?  If you only pipeline 2 windows a year, do you really have people 'visiting' for 4 or 5 months?  Do they do their 3 visits, sign up, and then just disappear for weeks until the start of pipeline?

Is the 3 visits built into the pipeline?
Like you sign up to pipeline, and the first three weeks you aren't really a member...
And on that fourth week /flip switch, now you are?

[Storm Chaser]

My issue is not so much with the three-meeting requirement, but with the fact that NHQ is removing the commander's discretion on the matter.

[MIKE]

I can think of a few reasons why NHQ doesn't want non-members hanging around past the trial period. 

[NC Hokie]

Probably about time.  3 weeks of visits has been a "best practice" for a lot of units with the
flipside being (apparently) many not making common sense decisions about what prospective
cadets are allowed to do.

This might curtail a lot of the issue of empty shirts.

"(1) During the trial period, unit commanders will only permit prospective cadets to
participate in cadet activities that are not physically rigorous, including classroom activities, drill and
ceremonies, basic calisthenics and jogging, and low-impact field activities such as rocketry, simple
orienteering, volleyball, and similar endeavors, provided the young person reports to have no physical
limitations or injuries. 

(2) Prospective cadets are prohibited from participating in overnight activities, flying, riding
in CAP vehicles, participating in physically-rigorous field activities such as hiking and obstacle course,
and participating in any activity that would qualify as "high adventure" per CAPR 52-16, chapter 2. "

I guess it would have been too easy to specifically allow or disallow the CPFT by name.

[NIN]

Think "insurance coverage" here, gang.

A prospective member injures him or herself at a CAP meeting while not having executed a CAPF 12 or 15?

I don't think I'm the only commander to ever sit up in bed at night going "Crap, I hope Timmy the Clumsy Prospective Cadet doesn't take a header until mom signs his form.."

[a2capt]

30 days.. quite a bit shorter than the recent thread with the  2 year "cadet"? .. maybe that woke someone up into making that change..

[lordmonar]

I agree that it's a "best practice", but I don't think it should be regulated. Some cadets may be ready to go "full throttle" after the first or second meeting. I personally know several who joined right away and have gone far in the program. Heck, I joined as a cadet after my meeting. Commanders should be allowed to make that determination.

Is there anyway to track and verify?
If so.....who cares.

The intent of the regulation is to make sure the cadet really, really wants to join before his parents shell out big cash.....and get the Free Uniform....and then think...."What I got to cut my hair!"

[lordmonar]

Probably about time.  3 weeks of visits has been a "best practice" for a lot of units with the
flipside being (apparently) many not making common sense decisions about what prospective
cadets are allowed to do.

This might curtail a lot of the issue of empty shirts.

"(1) During the trial period, unit commanders will only permit prospective cadets to
participate in cadet activities that are not physically rigorous, including classroom activities, drill and
ceremonies, basic calisthenics and jogging, and low-impact field activities such as rocketry, simple
orienteering, volleyball, and similar endeavors, provided the young person reports to have no physical
limitations or injuries. 

(2) Prospective cadets are prohibited from participating in overnight activities, flying, riding
in CAP vehicles, participating in physically-rigorous field activities such as hiking and obstacle course,
and participating in any activity that would qualify as "high adventure" per CAPR 52-16, chapter 2. "

I guess it would have been too easy to specifically allow or disallow the CPFT by name.

How can they take a test if they are not members?   They certainly can participate in the PT.

[a2capt]

I don't see testing listed there anywhere.

[SarDragon]

I don't see testing listed there anywhere.

Isn't CPFT a test? As in Cadet Physical Fitness Test?

Or am I missing something here?

[a2capt]

In the regulation cite, I don't see testing specifically called out. However, putting a date in that is earlier than the membership join date is probably borderline kooky anyway. OTOH, "calisthenics and jogging".. sounds so 1980s.

[SarDragon]

In the regulation cite, I don't see testing specifically called out. However, putting a date in that is earlier than the membership join date is probably borderline kooky anyway. OTOH, "calisthenics and jogging".. sounds so 1980s.

OK, I re-reread it, and see what you're saying. The CPFT wasn't part of the reg quote.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Honestly, how many kids, or their parents, really know what CAP is all about on a first visit?

Just like the pipeline idea, if a kid won't come back for three meetings, how invested is he really in being a cadet?
It has to be some number, they picked three.  I like CC discretion, but don't really have a huge issue with three.

Should probably be three for seniors as well.

Check, check and double check!

[The14th]

I'd hope potential Senior Members would do a little of their own research before deciding if they want to join or not. 

[00]

Probably about time.  3 weeks of visits has been a "best practice" for a lot of units with the
flipside being (apparently) many not making common sense decisions about what prospective
cadets are allowed to do.

This might curtail a lot of the issue of empty shirts.

"(1) During the trial period, unit commanders will only permit prospective cadets to
participate in cadet activities that are not physically rigorous, including classroom activities, drill and
ceremonies, basic calisthenics and jogging, and low-impact field activities such as rocketry, simple
orienteering, volleyball, and similar endeavors, provided the young person reports to have no physical
limitations or injuries. 

(2) Prospective cadets are prohibited from participating in overnight activities, flying, riding
in CAP vehicles, participating in physically-rigorous field activities such as hiking and obstacle course,
and participating in any activity that would qualify as "high adventure" per CAPR 52-16, chapter 2. "

I guess it would have been too easy to specifically allow or disallow the CPFT by name.

How can they take a test if they are not members?   They certainly can participate in the PT.

It is only a pamphlet, but it does let those who have sent in an application test.
CAP Pamphlet 52-9
Test Eligibility.
Ordinarily, an individual's membership must be current on E-Services if they wish to test. New cadets participating in Great Start may take their Achievement 1 tests before their name appears in e-Services, provided that their application form has been completed and is en route to CAP National Headquarters.

[a2capt]

Yup, and generally it works out that I don't have to resort to that, because applications tend to get processed pretty quick. As in we send them in on Wed. and by the next Tuesday they've shown on our list. 

[lordmonar]

It is only a pamphlet, but it does let those who have sent in an application test.
CAP Pamphlet 52-9
Test Eligibility.
Ordinarily, an individual's membership must be current on E-Services if they wish to test. New cadets participating in Great Start may take their Achievement 1 tests before their name appears in e-Services, provided that their application form has been completed and is en route to CAP National Headquarters.

But I stand by my original statement.

during your three visits you can participate in the PT but not take the CPFT.....on your next visit you drop off your application and now you can.

[00]

Lordmonar -

I wasn't questioning your original statement and I agree completely with the statement you made in your last post. I was just musing an answer to the question you posed. Of course, even the pamphlet I quoted is somewhat ambiguous, because it could be interpreted that a person becomes a member upon turning in an application. It certainly implies a difference in status. Although I've never had a cadet rejected, I have had some applications take longer than others. I assume it is within National's rights to reject an application.

My squadron has followed the three-visit rule for at least two years. We still get cadets who quickly disappear. I've had two cadets who did their three meetings, did the application and check, and have not returned. In inquiring after he had missed several meetings, one stated that he only joined because he thought it would look good on a college application. I have had potential cadets within the three meetings realize that the program wasn't for them, because of the physical fitness test or the fact that they really would have to get their hair cut.

Respectfully,
Capt. Sullivan

[NIN]

I'm not quite clear on how this plays against pipelining recruiting strategy though...
To squadrons that pipeline, do you just make cadets who haven't met the pipeline cutoff date visit at least 3 times sometime before the pipeline start?  If you only pipeline 2 windows a year, do you really have people 'visiting' for 4 or 5 months?  Do they do their 3 visits, sign up, and then just disappear for weeks until the start of pipeline?

Negative.

If you pipeline (like we do), we don't have people "visiting" for 4 months.

If the last inprocessing night was 16 April, thus "closing" the pipeline for the spring, you show up on the 23rd going "hey, yeah, I'm interested in CAP," we talk to you about CAP, show you around, give you the mini-dog & pony show, and say  "All these cadets here are in our basic cadet training that started three weeks ago.  They're already on their way to becoming cadets. If you're interested in joining, our next Open House is in September. Heres a flyer for the Fall recruiting night. Can I get your email and phone number and we'll follow up with you about 3 weeks before the next one?"

BTW, I get that a lot of CAP people  freak out when I say that we tell people "Come back in the fall.." or whatever.

a) the number of people this applies to is small (like maybe 2 or 3 a year? Maybe 5? Probably less);
b) most folks don't show up a week after in-processing and go "I wanna join NOOOOOOOWWWWW!"  They usually show up someplace *after* that, like closer to the next event. A more manageable and realistic time closer to the next event;
c) To us (most CAP folks), thats a "OMG! YOU DON'T LET THEM JOIN AT THAT INSTANT?" crazy idea.  To a prospective member, thats "just the way it is."  They don't know that its unusual or out of the ordinary;
d) Most of the folks I hear from who say "OMG! You tell people to come back? Are you crazy?" are from units that have major recruiting and retention issues already.. Major.  Like "They'll pounce on any warm-body that walks in the door like a monkey on a cupcake"  Turning a solitary soul interested in CAP away is like pouring out your water in the desert to them.

Is the 3 visits built into the pipeline?
Like you sign up to pipeline, and the first three weeks you aren't really a member...
And on that fourth week /flip switch, now you are?

Yep

Open House (week 1)
Training Week Zero (forming week) (week 2)
Inprocessing Night (week 3)
*poof* /flip switch

[Storm Chaser]

I agree that it's a "best practice", but I don't think it should be regulated. Some cadets may be ready to go "full throttle" after the first or second meeting. I personally know several who joined right away and have gone far in the program. Heck, I joined as a cadet after my meeting. Commanders should be allowed to make that determination.

Is there anyway to track and verify?
If so.....who cares.

Sergeant Harris, you wouldn't be suggesting that we ignore the regulation if there's no way to "track and verify" that these cadets actually attended three meetings, right?

[Alaric]

I agree that it's a "best practice", but I don't think it should be regulated. Some cadets may be ready to go "full throttle" after the first or second meeting. I personally know several who joined right away and have gone far in the program. Heck, I joined as a cadet after my meeting. Commanders should be allowed to make that determination.

Is there anyway to track and verify?
If so.....who cares.

Sergeant Harris, you wouldn't be suggesting that we ignore the regulation if there's no way to "track and verify" that these cadets actually attended three meetings, right?

Can't speak for other units but guests sign in to our meetings and therefore that is how you would track and verify

[lordmonar]

I agree that it's a "best practice", but I don't think it should be regulated. Some cadets may be ready to go "full throttle" after the first or second meeting. I personally know several who joined right away and have gone far in the program. Heck, I joined as a cadet after my meeting. Commanders should be allowed to make that determination.

Is there anyway to track and verify?
If so.....who cares.

Sergeant Harris, you wouldn't be suggesting that we ignore the regulation if there's no way to "track and verify" that these cadets actually attended three meetings, right?

I'm saying that the three meeting rule is a good rule.....but there is no way for anyone,with out actually seeing it happen, to know one way or the other  if a local commander made an exception based on the situation at hand.

That being good leadership.