Level 4 Leadership requirement question

[lordmonar]

Starting to think I should record my week of TAC officer time as that was sure over 12 hours on a staff.

Just for clarification sake, it's not 12 hours of staff time, it's any staff position of an activity with 12+ contact hours.

As written, you could show up and teach an AE class (something sorely needed in the new curriculum going into effect 1 June, just sayin')
have lunch with the troops and go home, and that would count.

If your interpretation is correct (which would make mine incorrect), then the 12-hour contact time in CAPR 50-17 doesn't make any sense. Based on that, the new versions of SLS and CLC in FLWG (and other wings), which only have 6 hours of contact time, don't count for credit even if the staff member spends all 6 hours with the students. So, what's the purpose of the 12 hours then? What was the intent of the regulation?

In my reading of the reg and looking at the time lines.....it does count.   The 12-hour contact time for course length was the bar set by the PD guys before we started offering SLS and CLC with a mixed on-line/in-residence stand point.

So the CLC and SLS are still 12 hour courses.......they just only have 6 hours of face-time......consequently where before you could get upto 12 members credit for staffing a course.....now you can only legitimately do 6.   

But as pointed out before.....there was no minimum participation threshold set in the regulations......it is up to your PD officer if it counts or not.

This is one of those things where the we really really really need to know what the true intent is.......and to get some guidance on how engaged a member is supposed to be to get credit for staffing an SLS type course.

[tonyairplane]

It does not count.  12 hours of contact time means face to face time.  As I posted earlier, in my graduate classes, contact time is class time, homework, studying, etc. do not count.

[Eclipse]

It does not count.  12 hours of contact time means face to face time.  As I posted earlier, in my graduate classes, contact time is class time, homework, studying, etc. do not count.

Your graduate classes have zero relevance to CAP or this discussion.

[Storm Chaser]

While CAPR 50-17 only mentions the minimum length of the course (although it does say the activity "must have 12 hours of contact time"), one could interpret that to mean that serving on a "director or staff member capacity" would require that minimum amount of contact time (although not necessarily teaching). After all, a course "director" would coordinate the entire course, not just a class or two. Why would a "staff member" not assist with the entire course as well, even if only teaching one class? In my opinion, thinking that an instructor who teaches an hour class meets the requirement is as much interpretation as saying that the "staff member" should be there for then entire course. Unfortunately, CAPR 50-17 does not cover this requirement in much detail, leaving the requirement open to interpretation. At the end, it's going to be up to the corresponding wing to determine whether the requirement was met.

[Eclipse]

A course director could coordinate the entire day and not even be there, or open the doors in the morning,
being in lunch, and show up on Day 2 to sign the certs, or anything in-between.

As to staff, a given individual may have expertise in a specific area, and be brought in to teach facilitate
only one or two of the classes, may only be available for one day, or anything in between.

As you, in the end it's the subjective decision of the approve, but considering the vector (from director of only SLS/CLC to
staff of just about anything of consequence) I'd say it would be hard to justify a mandate of being there the entire time.

I can tell you that's never been the case (since the change) in my wing, or, AFAIK, my Region.

[Storm Chaser]

And I'm not arguing that. I'm merely saying that NHQ could have been more clear on the intent by specifying the criteria to receive credit, as "staff member" is too broad. If the regulation was more specific, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Eclipse]

^ Honestly, I think that is by design to facilitate people getting promoted, which in turn facilitates retention.

I didn't like or agree with it when they made the change, and viewed it as one more dilution of the program,
but didn't care enough to give it anther thought.

I agree that it would be nice if someone with the actual authority would be specific in cases like these.

In my opinion, anytime a question is asked twice, it's time to publish the answer.

[tonyairplane]

It does not count.  12 hours of contact time means face to face time.  As I posted earlier, in my graduate classes, contact time is class time, homework, studying, etc. do not count.

Your graduate classes have zero relevance to CAP or this discussion.

The definition of contact time is the pertinent point.  But as usual you are too busy poking holes in everything that anyone else on here posts to realize that.

[Eclipse]

The definition of contact time is the pertinent point. 

Fair enough.  Which CAPR contains that?

[THRAWN]

It does not count.  12 hours of contact time means face to face time.  As I posted earlier, in my graduate classes, contact time is class time, homework, studying, etc. do not count.

Your graduate classes have zero relevance to CAP or this discussion.

The definition of contact time is the pertinent point.  But as usual you are too busy poking holes in everything that anyone else on here posts to realize that.

Poking holes in arguements and points that don't hold water is pretty important to validating, or in this case, invalidating, your point.

[tonyairplane]

What was invalid? Contact time is face to face time with instructors.  Online training time doesn't count.

An online class, even if it is 20 hours, and a six hour in-person capstone session is six hours of contact time.

One just can't get twelve hours out of a six hour class.

What isn't clear?

[THRAWN]

Injecting your graduate classes into the mix. It's got no bearing on the discussion. More like comparing hand grenades and snow tires. Sure, they're both round....

[Eclipse]

What was invalid? Contact time is face to face time with instructors.  Online training time doesn't count.

Really?  And your source for that would be?

[tonyairplane]

Are you saying that the online portion of a hybrid class should count toward contact time?

If yes, that would be great.  But we'll need you to cite that for us.

Thank you.

[EMT-83]

And once again, the regulations are out of date with current technolgy. Honestly, I don't have any heartburn either way, but it would be nice to have clarification from above.

[tonyairplane]

Injecting your graduate classes into the mix. It's got no bearing on the discussion. More like comparing hand grenades and snow tires. Sure, they're both round....

That is a little fresh and not called for.  I was trying to illustrate what the definition of contact time is at a real school.

[Eclipse]

Are you saying that the online portion of a hybrid class should count toward contact time?

I'm not even having that conversation.

[sogden]

As a Director of PD in one of the Mega Wings and one of the individuals that has created a hybrid SLS (which is the model for most of them now), my model had to be approved by NHQ and fulfill the required "Contact" time of a minimum of 12 hours. They reviewed and dissected it prior to giving us approval to use it. If you take one of the online courses, or my hybrid course, you will find it is actually more time consuming and harder than sitting through the face-to-face course. Anyone can be a wallflower and get credit. In the online, you cannot. (Col Skrabut, nor myself would ever let them complete the course if that were the case)

I have the ability to see how often the students are accessing their material and how long they are spending on it. I require them to not only post an answer to every single discussion question, but they also must reply to a set amount of other classmates. That, along with the course material, (which is the same taught in the face-to-face) does more than fulfill 8 hours of online course work. We complete the final 4 in person. Trust me when I say that not only have my in residence facilitators earned their credit for instructing, so have my online facilitators. It may sound like a serious cop out, but it is far from it.

To answer the question at hand, it doesn't specify in regulations exactly how much contact time constitutes the requirement for fulfilling the role of staff at the listed courses. It simply states how long the courses are required to be to meet the requirement of being on the approved list. It is the same for showing proof of Wing Conference attendance, or mentorship. There isn't anything in writing that specifies exactly how it is to be proven. That is at the discretion of the approving commander. Our Wing is working on providing further clarification so we are all on the same page.

I'm happy to answer any question on the courses so that a truly educated understanding can be reached. And, anyone that wants to facilitate my next round, let me know. I'm happy to have you come instruct in my online course and meet for our half day face-to-face.

[disamuel]

I took the online CLC through WYWG with Col. Skrabut in 2010. It was a rigorous eight week course. It's difficult for me to take off an entire weekend to devote to CAP, and I felt that the few weekends that I had available I preferred to devote to ES activities.

[a2capt]

..which brings up something I've heard from a few people after participating in an online SLS, is it true that everyone can see all the replies to the questions as it's progressing?

Because I've heard the complaint more than once, that answers tend to be very similar, to someones blatant copy and paste, and that they generally start appearing soon after the first one is posted.

The basic premise being that two or three feel like they're doing all the work, and being copied off by the rest.

No system is perfect. I get that. But face to face in one weekend sure has it's benefits.