Can a person with an Other Than Honarble discharge join CAP?

[JAH1967]

Hello,

I am new to the forum and thank you for accepting me. I have a sincere desire to join CAP and would like to apply my skills in management, finance and life wherever applicable. However, I have an OTH discharge from the US Navy in 1987 for a mistake I made at the age of 19 and have regreted for the rest of my life. I have been married for 28 years to the same woman, raised 2 successful daughters and have had a successful corporate career in finance, I am a Vice President in my company of 11 years. I have never been arrested since being dishcarged, no DUI's, no sexual offenses, child abuse or spousal battery etc. I've lead a clean and productive life.

So my question is, will having this OTH dicharge hinder my oportunity to join CAP? Is a waiver needed and what will I need to do to obtain said waiver? Will it hinder my oportunity in the future in CAP to assume roles of leadership?

[arajca]

Per CAPR 39-2, Membership, A waiver would be required from the Chief Operating Officer and/or National Commander.

d. Suitability. Subject to being waived by the Chief Operating Officer and/or National Commander, as noted below, any one of the following may be the basis for rejection of membership.
(1) Conviction of a felony by any court of record whether federal, state or military. (Requires both Chief Operating Officer and National Commander concurrence to accept as member.)
(2) A pattern of arrests and/or convictions including but not limited to sex offenses, child abuse, DUIs, dishonesty and violence.
(3) Discharge from the armed services under other than honorable conditions.
<snip>

[a2capt]

Declare it, provide information, submit the application. Move on. It will work through the system. It just may take a bit longer than a typical application.

[JAH1967]

Thank you both gentlemen for your response. a2capt I will follow your advice and proceed from there.

[Garibaldi]

Better to be up front than having someone find out the hard way. I have an ELS DD-214 and am very upfront about my lack of military service. It could be classed as Other Than Honorable even thought I didn't have enough service.

[MSG Mac]

ELS?

[LSThiker]

ELS?

Entry Level Separation.  It is for people with less than 180 days of military service.  Basically, it is the commander stating that I did not have enough time to adequately evaluate this person as good, bad, or otherwise.  It is the commander separating someone and remaining neutral. 

ELSs are not classified as honorable, general, or other than honorable.  It is its own classification. 

[jimmydeanno]

What usually happens in these types of cases, where a "waiver" of some sort is needed is that you end up submitted an explanation of the circumstances behind your OTH/Arrest/Conviction and then get your future commander to write something that attests to his recommendation for your membership despite having something in your history that might be looked at unfavorably.  Send all that stuff with the application, fingerprint card, and [most importantly] your check.  From there it is a waiting game. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

ELS?

Entry Level Separation.  It is for people with less than 180 days of military service.  Basically, it is the commander stating that I did not have enough time to adequately evaluate this person as good, bad, or otherwise.  It is the commander separating someone and remaining neutral. 

ELSs are not classified as honorable, general, or other than honorable.  It is its own classification.

It's like a "neutral" classification.  It happens a lot to people who couldn't make it through their service's basic training for whatever reasons not disciplinary-related.

[MSG Mac]

If it's been over 25 years with no record afterwards you should be good. I would also include character reference from a community leader in the package.

[JAH1967]

Again, thank you all for sahring your views and suggestions.

To MSG Mac, you mention to get a character reference from a community leader, wuld that need to be a government official? I was a community leader in 2012 whne I sered as Worshipful Master of my Freemason Lodge in Florida. We did some fundraisers and voluteered at the local food bank etc. I was also made a Kentucky Colonel as a result of al those effort as a sign of recognition.

I also have a a fellow Freemason who is a Captain in the CAP who is writing me a letter of refference for the Squadron Commander. Would that be of any help?

[Angus]

Again, thank you all for sahring your views and suggestions.

To MSG Mac, you mention to get a character reference from a community leader, wuld that need to be a government official? I was a community leader in 2012 whne I sered as Worshipful Master of my Freemason Lodge in Florida. We did some fundraisers and voluteered at the local food bank etc. I was also made a Kentucky Colonel as a result of al those effort as a sign of recognition.

I also have a a fellow Freemason who is a Captain in the CAP who is writing me a letter of refference for the Squadron Commander. Would that be of any help?

That letter should cover it, since he's a member of both it does show good faith in you.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I also have a a fellow Freemason who is a Captain in the CAP who is writing me a letter of refference for the Squadron Commander. Would that be of any help?

My father-in-law was a (I think) 32nd Degree Mason.  Most communities look on involvement in charitable organisations like Masons, Shriners, Moose (my dad was a 50+ year Moose), Elks, etc. kindly, and with your Masonic friend/CAP Captain being willing to write you a letter of reference...it certainly wouldn't hurt!

[Private Investigator]

I have a sincere desire to join CAP and would like to apply my skills in management, finance and life wherever applicable. ...

Do you know how to fly a plane? Mentor the youth? Aerospace Education guru? I can guess whatever Squadron you want to join will need either a Public Affairs Officer and/or a Supply Officer. So what do you see yourself doing?

Anyways it is a lot of fun for some and for others it does not live up to the hype or some people's expectations. So have fun .. 

[SARDOC]

Better to be up front than having someone find out the hard way. I have an ELS DD-214 and am very upfront about my lack of military service. It could be classed as Other Than Honorable even thought I didn't have enough service.

The Entry Level Separation is not an "other than honorable" discharge.  It should be made out as "uncharacterized"  This is usually done within the first six months for discharges done at the Convenience of the Government.

[ColonelJack]

Better to be up front than having someone find out the hard way. I have an ELS DD-214 and am very upfront about my lack of military service. It could be classed as Other Than Honorable even thought I didn't have enough service.

The Entry Level Separation is not an "other than honorable" discharge.  It should be made out as "uncharacterized"  This is usually done within the first six months for discharges done at the Convenience of the Government.

My, how times have changed.  When I was separated from the AF in 1975, I had seven weeks of service ... far short of the 180-day threshold ... yet I have an Honorable Discharge. 

Jack

[FlyTiger77]

Better to be up front than having someone find out the hard way. I have an ELS DD-214 and am very upfront about my lack of military service. It could be classed as Other Than Honorable even thought I didn't have enough service.

The Entry Level Separation is not an "other than honorable" discharge.  It should be made out as "uncharacterized"  This is usually done within the first six months for discharges done at the Convenience of the Government.

My, how times have changed.  When I was separated from the AF in 1975, I had seven weeks of service ... far short of the 180-day threshold ... yet I have an Honorable Discharge. 

Jack

A DD93 is issued for an active duty period of 90 days or greater. A DD220 is used to report periods less than 90 days. An ELS is a neutral way of discharging individuals early in their period of service. If they have served greater than 90 days at the time of discharge, they will be issued a DD93.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In the case of Guard personnel, they can get a DD214 with an ELS (example: not making it through basic training), but since their state is the final discharging authority, they can get an NGB22 with an "Honorable Conditions" discharge.  I've seen them.

Which begs the question I've heard more than once:

In the Air Force, you have to complete BMT to earn the AF Training Ribbon, and depending on your dates of service, you also get the NDSM.

However, completing BMT is not a requirement for the NDSM...so do those who get an ELS/NGB22 Honorable Conditions qualify for the NDSM?

[SarDragon]

From Wikipedia:

There is no time requirement for the medal's issuance, meaning that someone who joins the military for simply a few days, and then receives an entry level discharge, would technically be entitled to the NDSM; in practice, however, military clerks will not add the NDSM on a DD Form 214 if the service member performed duty for less than 90 days from the completion of their initial entry training. This accounts for the medal's omission from a large number of "uncharacterized" and "entry level" separation documents. Veterans who have this medal so omitted may apply to the military service departments to have the NDSM added to records via a DD Form 215.

SECNAVINST 1650.1H, Army Regulation 600–8–22 and NDSM AFPC Fact Sheet show no minimum time requirements.

[The14th]

If you get an ELS, who cares if you got a NDSM?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If you get an ELS, who cares if you got a NDSM?

It's not really "caring," more like "what does this mean?"

For a Guard member the DD214 ELS is not "the last word" - it is the State Military Department which determines the nature of a discharge.

[The14th]

Okay, but what does the NDSM have to do with discharge classification?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Okay, but what does the NDSM have to do with discharge classification?

Simply that I find it somewhat odd that someone with an ELS can get a service medal; I understand that with the Guard it can happen because they are the final discharging authority.

When I was at Lackland back when F-80's were still active (kidding, of course), I had to make a run to what was then called Med Hold (Med Hell).  I remember walking past a roomful of ex-recruits being sent home, being lectured by a civilian who, at that precise moment, was talking about this very topic.  My memory has grown fuzzy with age, but I think this gentleman said anyone not getting sent home for Fraudulent Enlistment would get the NDSM.  Of course, I did not have time to linger unless I wanted to risk the wrath of a TSgt I was supposed to connect with!

[The14th]

Okay, but what does the NDSM have to do with discharge classification?

Simply that I find it somewhat odd that someone with an ELS can get a service medal; I understand that with the Guard it can happen because they are the final discharging authority.

Oh, well that I agree with for sure. And I have to wonder about someone with an ELS trying to get their NDSM after the fact, that seems like way more of a hassle than it's worth of an award that they just give you for showing up. Not much of a purpose.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Okay, but what does the NDSM have to do with discharge classification?

Simply that I find it somewhat odd that someone with an ELS can get a service medal; I understand that with the Guard it can happen because they are the final discharging authority.

Oh, well that I agree with for sure. And I have to wonder about someone with an ELS trying to get their NDSM after the fact, that seems like way more of a hassle than it's worth of an award that they just give you for showing up. Not much of a purpose.

I dunno...to put in a shadowbox or something?  To show off to people?  To wear on civilian clothing for veterans' celebrations?

Note: All of the above come rather close to "poseur-ism" for me.

I do remember one CAP officer, fairly high-ranking, who wore that as his single military ribbon on his otherwise all-CAP ribbon rack.

[The14th]

I would love to see the shadow box of a guy who flunked out of Basic after 2 weeks and got an ELS.

And yes, I believe posing would be the main reason. Or stack stacking.

[lordmonar]

Whether someone would go out of their way to get it on the DD214 or not is not the point.

The point is wear criteria is serve on active duty.   They second you say "So help me god" you get your first ribbon.

Cyborg....it is is all "poseur-ism".   Nothing wrong with that.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I would love to see the shadow box of a guy who flunked out of Basic after 2 weeks and got an ELS.

And yes, I believe posing would be the main reason. Or stack stacking.

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Certificates--m-1054

[The14th]

I would love to see the shadow box of a guy who flunked out of Basic after 2 weeks and got an ELS.

And yes, I believe posing would be the main reason. Or stack stacking.

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Certificates--m-1054

Can I get a Civil War Victory Medal on there?

[Private Investigator]

I would love to see the shadow box of a guy who flunked out of Basic after 2 weeks and got an ELS.

And yes, I believe posing would be the main reason. Or stack stacking.

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Certificates--m-1054

Can I get a Civil War Victory Medal on there?

Was you on the winning side? 

[The14th]

I would love to see the shadow box of a guy who flunked out of Basic after 2 weeks and got an ELS.

And yes, I believe posing would be the main reason. Or stack stacking.

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Certificates--m-1054

Can I get a Civil War Victory Medal on there?

Was you on the winning side? 

In all seriousness, I had a lot of family fight on both sides, but the majority were Confederates.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I was going to ask you about which side's medal you wanted!

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States most of my ancestors were probably making wine along the Rhine or being some of the last of Ireland's nobility (a direct ancestor of mine was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland) so it's likely none of them fought in that war.

I don't know what to think of these commemorative medals, though...you can't wear them on any military uniform (including CAP/CGAUX), and they're expensive trinkets to just display...just wondering.

[The14th]

Seems like the sort of thing Stolen Valor posers buy to impress civilians who don't know any better.

[Mitchell 1969]

Seems like the sort of thing Stolen Valor posers buy to impress civilians who don't know any better.

Stolen valor guys usually buy actual ribbons/medals/badges. In for a penny, in for a pound.

The commemoratives do seem to have a legitimate market for older vets. Especially when it comes to commemorating important events for which there were no dedicated medals.

For example, I wouldn't begrudge a guy who landed at Omaha Beach wanting to wear a "D-Day Medal." Or a guy who wanted to have a unit citation medal instead of a ribbon in a shadow box. Or the family wanting to honor dear departed Uncle Willie.

In the UK, the commemoratives are popular with vets. But they can't be worn with real medals, even by civilians. They are usually worn on the right side, real ones on the left.

Interestingly, it's also not uncommon in the UK to wear medals of departed ancestors. But, on the right side, to show that the wearer is doing it in tribute and not trying to claim personal honors.

[The14th]

Wearing medals on the right wouldn't work here, because us Army folk already wear actual awards on that side too.

[Flying Pig]

When I was a Sgt in the Marines one of my PFCs did that.  Wore his grandfathers WWII medals on his marine dress blues at some veterans event where his deceased grandfather was being honored.  He openly showed me pictures of the event and told me his grandmother wanted him to wear them.   We had a long discussion about the issue and that was the end of it.  His grandfather had quite a stack to include the silver star. Bronze star and Purple Heart.  No posing, just a new kid who didn't have any ill intent.

[Panache]

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States

The War of Northern Aggression.   

[lordmonar]

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States

The War of Northern Aggression.   

Strange......as I was taught in history class.....some Southerners started taking pot shots at a federal fort.........who was the aggressor? 

[Panache]

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States

The War of Northern Aggression.   

Strange......as I was taught in history class.....some Southerners started taking pot shots at a federal fort.........who was the aggressor? 

Strictly self-defense, sir!  That fort was coming right at us!   

[Mitchell 1969]

Wearing medals on the right wouldn't work here, because us Army folk already wear actual awards on that side too.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

The family and/or commemorative medals on the right arrangement is for civilian clothing. They are not allowed on uniforms.

[Mitchell 1969]

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States

The War of Northern Aggression.   

Strange......as I was taught in history class.....some Southerners started taking pot shots at a federal fort.........who was the aggressor? 

You mean, some soldiers of a state that had left the Union were trying to evict occupiers of a foreign power.

[lordmonar]

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States

The War of Northern Aggression.   

Strange......as I was taught in history class.....some Southerners started taking pot shots at a federal fort.........who was the aggressor? 

You mean, some soldiers of a state that had left the Union were trying to evict occupiers of a foreign power.

LOL..... 

[Devil Doc]

Well, I wont Spoil what the "Emancipation Proclomation" Actually Meant. But I digress....

On my Dads Side I had family fight for the Union, There was 5 brothers all in the ARMY.

1 was in Company A, 139th PA Volunteers, Died in the Battle of Wilderness
2 was in Comapny G, 10th PA Reserve/ 39th Regiment Died in NY after participating in Shermans March/ Other injured at Gaines Mill.
2 was in Company G, 100th PA Regment, Cant find much about them.

[The14th]

Two of my relatives fought for the South during Wilderness. One was wounded, but the other made it through. (My dad is big in to genealogy, which is cool, since I've gotten to learn a lot about my ancestors.)

[Devil Doc]

My GF Family had Family fight in the Wilderness Also, Her Family was Confederate, lol.

[Shuman 14]

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States

The War of Northern Aggression.   

The War for Southern Independance. 

[Shuman 14]

I would love to see the shadow box of a guy who flunked out of Basic after 2 weeks and got an ELS.

And yes, I believe posing would be the main reason. Or stack stacking.

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Medals--m-599

http://www.medalsofamerica.com/ItemList--Commemorative-Certificates--m-1054

Can I get a Civil War Victory Medal on there?

Was you on the winning side? 

In all seriousness, I had a lot of family fight on both sides, but the majority were Confederates.

Southern Cross of Honor

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^I think that would fall more along the lines of an organisational decoration.

[Garibaldi]

At the time of the Civil War/War Between The States

The War of Northern Aggression.   

The War for Southern Independance. 

Otherwise known as the Grits Insurrection.

[The14th]

^I think that would fall more along the lines of an organisational decoration.

Yeah, awarded after the fact.

[Private Investigator]

^I think that would fall more along the lines of an organisational decoration.

Yeah, awarded after the fact.

According to Wiki, designed in 1898 and first presented at a reunion in 1900.

I am thinking it is similar to the "cold war" medals I see in some Veteran's shadow boxes. 

[LSThiker]

Saw this article posted on Yahoo! and it reminded me of this conversation:

http://news.yahoo.com/confederate-heroes-own-medal-honor-160033142.html

[Private Investigator]

From the article; The Congressional Medal of Honor Society, representing U.S. medal winners, brushed off questions about Confederate medals.

"We don't really know about this program," said Carol Cepregi, deputy director of operations. "They're certainly free to do whatever their little hearts desire, as long as they're calling it the Confederate Medal of Honor and not our Medal of Honor."

I concur.   

[Mitchell 1969]

From the article; The Congressional Medal of Honor Society, representing U.S. medal winners, brushed off questions about Confederate medals.

"We don't really know about this program," said Carol Cepregi, deputy director of operations. "They're certainly free to do whatever their little hearts desire, as long as they're calling it the Confederate Medal of Honor and not our Medal of Honor."

I concur.   

As do I, with the concept. But the "...whatever their little hearts desire..." was snotty and unnecessary.

[Luis R. Ramos]

That snotty comment was her way of showing contempt for them. She could not say in a public forum she felt it was not a good idea, so she hid her feelings maybe not too well.

[JeffDG]

That snotty comment was her way of showing contempt for them. She could not say in a public forum she felt it was not a good idea, so she hid her feelings maybe not too well.

I find that type of concentration interesting, considering that there's no such thing as a Congressional Medal of Honor.

[The14th]

That comment was rather daft.

[LSThiker]

That snotty comment was her way of showing contempt for them. She could not say in a public forum she felt it was not a good idea, so she hid her feelings maybe not too well.

I find that type of concentration interesting, considering that there's no such thing as a Congressional Medal of Honor.

No where in the article was the medal referred to as the Congressional Medal of Honor.  The society's name is Congressional Medal of Honor Society as dictated by the US Congress under 36 U.S.C., Chapter 33, which was signed into law by President Eisenhower on 05 August 1958.  So really kind of a mutt moot point.

And a fun fact, despite the movie Courage Under Fire claim that no woman has received the MOH, there has been 1 woman to receive the MOH.  This was at Bull Run in 1861.  Also, prior to 1863, only enlisted were allowed to receive the MOH.  Finally, the USAF did not adopt a MOH design until 1963. 

[Panache]

So really kind of a mutt point.

[LSThiker]

I hate autocorrect.  Nice find on the picture.

[Devil Doc]

I dont see why people dont want to learn Confederate History also. It is ignorant. History is History, rather bad or good.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Learning is one thing. Giving rebels honor medals is another.

[The14th]

Learning is one thing. Giving rebels honor medals is another.

I'm pretty sure there are still units active today that's lineage is partially tied to units that fought for the Confederates. They continue on their history, regardless of which side they fought on. They were Americans and a huge portion of country has family members who fought for the South, whether you agree with their cause or not. It's a whole different scenario than say giving Medals of Honor to Nazis.

[MSG Mac]

That snotty comment was her way of showing contempt for them. She could not say in a public forum she felt it was not a good idea, so she hid her feelings maybe not too well.

I find that type of concentration interesting, considering that there's no such thing as a Congressional Medal of Honor.

No where in the article was the medal referred to as the Congressional Medal of Honor.  The society's name is Congressional Medal of Honor Society as dictated by the US Congress under 36 U.S.C., Chapter 33, which was signed into law by President Eisenhower on 05 August 1958.  So really kind of a mutt moot point.

And a fun fact, despite the movie Courage Under Fire claim that no woman has received the MOH, there has been 1 woman to receive the MOH.  This was at Bull Run in 1861.  Also, prior to 1863, only enlisted were allowed to receive the MOH.  Finally, the USAF did not adopt a MOH design until 1963.

In fact it wasn't  until 1914 that Officers of the Navy and Marine Corps were authorized to be awarded the Medal of Honor.

[FlyTiger77]

Learning is one thing. Giving rebels honor medals is another.

I wonder what George Washington was thinking when he directed creation of the Purple Heart?

Two thoughts: One man's rebel may be another man's hero. History is typically written by the winners.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Two thoughts: One man's rebel may be another man's hero. History is typically written by the winners.

Perspective adds a lot as well.

If one reads about the American Revolution in a British or Canadian school textbook, the perspective is quite different!  Example: Benedict Arnold is regarded as one of those "cranky Yanks" who had the good sense (if belated) to return to Mother Britain.  Drive the "Loyalist Parkway" east of Toronto (make sure to stop by RCAF Trenton to see the RCAF Museum!) and you'll see no shortage of crowns, and Union Jacks almost outnumber Canadian flags.

Japan is currently in the mindset of rethinking its role in WWII - some might say "rewriting history."  I do not know enough about the specific situation to say whether they are or not.

Even though they enjoy the benefits of being part of one of the world's freest and most respected nations, there are some hardcore separatists in Quebec who still regard themselves as a "conquered people"...even after 300 years of being part of first a British colony, then united British colonies, to independent Commonwealth Dominion.

Some Texans regard themselves as a "nation," which of course they once were.

[Private Investigator]

Southern Cross of Honor

So that is for a second place finish? In 2014 we call that the "consolation prize". Finishing last or being the loser is not politically correct.    

[Brit_in_CAP]

Two thoughts: One man's rebel may be another man's hero. History is typically written by the winners.

Perspective adds a lot as well.

If one reads about the American Revolution in a British or Canadian school textbook, the perspective is quite different!  Example: Benedict Arnold is regarded as one of those "cranky Yanks" who had the good sense (if belated) to return to Mother Britain.  Drive the "Loyalist Parkway" east of Toronto (make sure to stop by RCAF Trenton to see the RCAF Museum!) and you'll see no shortage of crowns, and Union Jacks almost outnumber Canadian flags.

Japan is currently in the mindset of rethinking its role in WWII - some might say "rewriting history."  I do not know enough about the specific situation to say whether they are or not.

Even though they enjoy the benefits of being part of one of the world's freest and most respected nations, there are some hardcore separatists in Quebec who still regard themselves as a "conquered people"...even after 300 years of being part of first a British colony, then united British colonies, to independent Commonwealth Dominion.

Some Texans regard themselves as a "nation," which of course they once were.

Intended comment re British history withdrawn - joke not as funny as I thought!

[lordmonar]

Two thoughts: One man's rebel may be another man's hero. History is typically written by the winners.

Perspective adds a lot as well.

If one reads about the American Revolution in a British or Canadian school textbook, the perspective is quite different!  Example: Benedict Arnold is regarded as one of those "cranky Yanks" who had the good sense (if belated) to return to Mother Britain.  Drive the "Loyalist Parkway" east of Toronto (make sure to stop by RCAF Trenton to see the RCAF Museum!) and you'll see no shortage of crowns, and Union Jacks almost outnumber Canadian flags.

Japan is currently in the mindset of rethinking its role in WWII - some might say "rewriting history."  I do not know enough about the specific situation to say whether they are or not.

Even though they enjoy the benefits of being part of one of the world's freest and most respected nations, there are some hardcore separatists in Quebec who still regard themselves as a "conquered people"...even after 300 years of being part of first a British colony, then united British colonies, to independent Commonwealth Dominion.

Some Texans regard themselves as a "nation," which of course they once were.

Intended comment re British history withdrawn - joke not as funny as I thought!

When I was deployed to Bosnia in '98 we invited the UK contingent over to our compound for our 4th of July Independence Day celebration.   The UK Royal Engineer said it best.  "To the 4th of July....the day the British Empire decided to cut their losses and get rid of their marginal business ventures"   

[Mitchell 1969]

Learning is one thing. Giving rebels honor medals is another.

The only people "...giving rebels honor medals..." are people presenting them to their own ancestors. They're entitled to do that, I think.

[Panache]

Finishing last or being the loser is not politically correct.   

Oh, I disagree.  There's quite a flourishing and vibrant "victimhood" culture in the United States nowadays.  In some circles, being successful is definitely not politically correct.

[The14th]

This thread took an odd direction.

[Garibaldi]

This thread took an odd direction.

Yeah, it went south in a hurry.

[Panache]

This thread took an odd direction.

Yeah, it went south in a hurry.

[SarDragon]

This thread's got more twists and turns than Lombard Street.