Senior Member D&C and Customs/Courtesies.

[Archer]

California Wing, Civil Air Patrol

Presents
Senior Drill & Ceremonies School
11-13 April 2014
Los Alamitos Joint Forces Training Base, CA
Going to Encampment this year? Want to be more useful during drill times? Not sure what is the difference between a left flank, a column left, a column of twos?
Maybe, it has simply been a while.
Come learn. Challenge yourself.
Students:  Student Application deadline is received by 29 March 2014.   
Cost is $40, including billeting, meals, & T-Shirt.

Classes to Expect:
· Drill Terms
· Common Drill Errors
· Flight Drill
· Inspecting the Flight
· Observe Flight Drill
· Drill Competition Overview & Administration
· Squadron Formation & Squadron Drill
· Leading the Flight: Practical Experience
· Salutes & Customs and Courtesies
· And much more!
Refund Policy:  No refund will be issued for Cancellations within one week of the activity, unless for verified emergency.
Mail all applications (CAPF 31 & CAPF 160 with ALL signatures), with $40 check, to     LtCol Grace Edinboro, 4601 Ventura West Ct, Elk Grove, CA 95758
Senior DCS:  For seniors without experience in the military or as a cadet – learn the ropes so you can have a positive impact on the Cadet Program!  Open to all Senior Members, experienced or not!  (guaranteed fun will be had by all!!)

Commandant:
Major Martin P. Sanford
Mobile Phone:  (530) 417-4108
Email:  martinpsanford@gmail.com
Project Officer:
LtCol Grace E. Edinboro
Mobile Phone:  (916) 501-0262
Email:  grace.e.edinboro.mil@mail.mil

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And this is the third time in two years that this school is happening.

Then God bless 'em, I say.

[SarDragon]

[redacted}

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating abbreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

And I suggest that you get your own house in order before trying to clean others'. This is one of those unintended consequences - the more important "getting it right" is in a post, the greater the likelihood of making a misteak mistake.

[a2capt]

That. Ouch.

[Patterson]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Your attention to detail and lack of commonsense is embarrassing. The abbreviation "LtCol" is how the Marine Corps abbreviates Lieutenant Colonel and the abbreviation "Lt Col" (notice the single space) is how the Air Force abbreviates Lieutenant Colonel.  Furthermore, had your attention to detail been spot on, you would have noticed the LtCol's email address is a military email address.  Thus common sense kicks in and you have to ask, "could he be a Marine Officer". If he is, I give more applause to the individual that correctly abbreviated his grade, most simply would use the Air Force abbreviation because that's what they are accustomed to.

[Ned]

As much as I hate to allow truth to interfere with a classic CT furball,

Lt Col Grace Edinboro, CAP,  is also COL Grace Edinboro, an Army officer with a couple of Iraq tours behind her and a Combat Action Badge.  (Plus a former Air Force NCO before she commissioned in the green.)

She is also a former Earhart cadet and pegs the Coolness Meter at max.

And BTW, she didn't write the email, it was done by staff.

You can now go back to arguing about Important CAP Matters like abbreviations and uniforms.

Ned Lee

[antdetroitwallyball]

SM's use rank address in the room when cadets are present. Much less so, though occasionally, when SMs only are present. When a cadet encounters one of us outdoors salutes are returned.  Very rare to render between SMs except during formation.  We fly our cadets, and some other sqdns, as well. SMs do not march.YMMV and good on ya, if you like it. Live and let live. Not according to Big CAP, I know, but this is our small corner of CAP reality.

This is exactly how my composite squadron is too.

On a personal note, the formation for SMs seems kinda quaint; no real harm done, but not much value, either.

True, I agree for the most part........but again, if the cadets are watching, there could be some harm done. I'm 26 years old. Unlike 95% of the rest of the 30 SM in my squadron (all of whom are 30+ years) old, I can relate to the cadets on a "youngish person level." I listen to the same music they listen to (mostly), I watch much of the same TV shows, and the highschool I went through was pretty much the same as they are going through. In terms of maturity and basic life knowledge, I'm obviously lightyears ahead, so I'm in no way a peer to them.......but you get my drift. Point being, I feel I have a slightly heavier responsibility to play the part of "squared-away," since they don't look at me like I'm "old enough to be a cadet's father."

I remember when I was on a highschool NRA pistol team as a teenager. Our team had 5 coaches, all of whom were 50+ years old, except for one of the coaches who was in his 20's. He was the coolest guy around. My teamates and I just tended to gravitate towards him because although he was our coach, he wasn't old enough to be anyone's father. Same concept here.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Being young and a "Senior Member" is certainly interesting. Having been a former cadet, even more so. Apparently those that didn't know, assumed I was in my late 20s or so and were shocked to find out at the time that I was a mere 23. But outside of that? It's not a big enough leap to realize that in any given CAP environment, chances are I'm 10-15 years junior of any other adult in the room.

[Private Investigator]

As much as I hate to allow truth to interfere with a classic CT furball,

Lt Col Grace Edinboro, CAP,  is also COL Grace Edinboro, an Army officer with a couple of Iraq tours behind her and a Combat Action Badge.  (Plus a former Air Force NCO before she commissioned in the green.)

She is also a former Earhart cadet and pegs the Coolness Meter at max.

And BTW, she didn't write the email, it was done by staff.

You can now go back to arguing about Important CAP Matters like abbreviations and uniforms.

Ned Lee

Ned, thanks for the heads up.

[Garibaldi]

As much as I hate to allow truth to interfere with a classic CT furball,

Lt Col Grace Edinboro, CAP,  is also COL Grace Edinboro, an Army officer with a couple of Iraq tours behind her and a Combat Action Badge.  (Plus a former Air Force NCO before she commissioned in the green.)

She is also a former Earhart cadet and pegs the Coolness Meter at max.

And BTW, she didn't write the email, it was done by staff.

You can now go back to arguing about Important CAP Matters like abbreviations and uniforms.

Ned Lee

Lawyered.

[arBar]

Since we are in the auxiliary of a military branch, and our regulations do call us to practice C&C, I think we should practice those things and demonstrate them at all appropriate times.  At this point I've been in 3.5 years and have yet to experience any kind of formal training in C&C or D&C within CAP.  Its always been a "watch and learn" thing.  Whatever form that formal training takes, though,  I'd love to see it.  Personally I think one solution would be to have that formal training prior to completion of Level I.  Maybe even do Officer Basic Course before getting 2d Lt as well. 

[fokkerfrenzy]

While you do have to read through the C&C section for Level 1, once you're through it and signed off it does seem to be a 'do what everyone else does in your squadron' kind of a thing in a lot of places I've seen/ heard about.

Thankfully, our composite squadron isn't divisive between the sections.  And since our emphasis is CP, but with a fair bit of professional development of SMs, SM work with the cadets every meeting to some extent, and we join opening/closing and awards formations so there is still a rudimentary understanding of formation mechanics necessary.

[Storm Chaser]

While I agree that it may be useful to learn drill and ceremonies before completing Level 1 and receiving a CAP promotion to 2d Lt, I don't see how drill and ceremony is needed within the senior program after that, unless (maybe) directly working with cadets. Even in the Air Force, drill and ceremonies is not practice much after BMT/Tech School for enlisted and USAFA/ROTC/OTS for officers, other than the occasional formation for a change of command or similar activity.

Customs and courtesies should always be observed when in uniform regardless of grade and membership type (cadet or senior member). That said, there's nothing wrong with CAP officers being a bit less formal when not in the presence of cadets. In fact, Air Force officers within the same or lower grade often refer to each other by their first names. When in the presence of junior officers, NCOs or airmen, a more formal approach is expected.

Finally, while CAP members don't always seem to follow regulations when it comes to customs and courtesies, uniforms and the like, it seems that many members here tend to get too wrapped up around the axle about these things. Don't get me wrong; it's not that they're not important. It's just that there are other more important things that affect CAP than this.

[THRAWN]

I ran a few Level 1 classes and always made sure that C&C/D&C was covered thoroughly. I would have some of the Base Honor Guard, or if they weren't available, some sharp cadets come in and show the students how it's done. When I was a squadron commander, that was part of our meeting.

[Mitchell 1969]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Did you perhaps mean "wary?"  If so, don't be. It could end up being one of the best bargains you ever got in CAP.

In addition to what Ned mentioned about Lt Col Grace Edinboro, the other party named in the announcement has impressive credentials.

Major Martin P. Sanford is a former Earhart cadet, former member of the USMC Silent Drill Team, former U.S. Army Drill Sergeant, retired Army First Sergeant and former CAP Senior Master Sergeant. He has served as a judge at countless drill competitions. Unlike some who are passionate about showing off their D&C prowess, he is passionate about passing on D&C knowledge to others.

[Garibaldi]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Did you perhaps mean "wary?"  If so, don't be. It could end up being one of the best bargains you ever got in CAP.

In addition to what Ned mentioned about Lt Col Grace Edinboro, the other party named in the announcement has impressive credentials.

Major Martin P. Sanford is a former Earhart cadet, former member of the USMC Silent Drill Team, former U.S. Army Drill Sergeant, retired Army First Sergeant and former CAP Senior Master Sergeant. He has served as a judge at countless drill competitions. Unlike some who are passionate about showing off their D&C prowess, he is passionate about passing on D&C knowledge to others.

Then there are SMs like me, who grew up as a cadet in an era when D&C was really enforced, and had it reinforced during basic and ROTC. I couldn't escape it, so I went with it. Sometimes I feel funny doing it, but I'm doing it right, and not looking nearly as funny as some seniors I will keep nameless. And I am happy to pass along what I know, to both cadets and seniors.

[EMT-83]

I have to chuckle at the "I wish this was included in Level 1" comments. This material is included in Level 1. The problem is units playing lip service to Level 1 or treating as an on-line course.

[Brit_in_CAP]

If I'm paying to be taught something that requires simple precision such as drill, I would expect you to be able to exhibit precision in something equally as simple such as properly abreviating your grade. A minor error, but enough to make me weary of giving someone my money to teach precision with attention to detail.

Did you perhaps mean "wary?"  If so, don't be. It could end up being one of the best bargains you ever got in CAP.

In addition to what Ned mentioned about Lt Col Grace Edinboro, the other party named in the announcement has impressive credentials.

Major Martin P. Sanford is a former Earhart cadet, former member of the USMC Silent Drill Team, former U.S. Army Drill Sergeant, retired Army First Sergeant and former CAP Senior Master Sergeant. He has served as a judge at countless drill competitions. Unlike some who are passionate about showing off their D&C prowess, he is passionate about passing on D&C knowledge to others.

Then there are SMs like me, who grew up as a cadet in an era when D&C was really enforced, and had it reinforced during basic and ROTC. I couldn't escape it, so I went with it. Sometimes I feel funny doing it, but I'm doing it right, and not looking nearly as funny as some seniors I will keep nameless. And I am happy to pass along what I know, to both cadets and seniors.

I'm like you - drill was required but, in my case, I assume I know nothing as the two styles of drill are *very* different!  My cadets have been teaching me - kindly - how to do USAF drill but I brought the whole thing to a grinding stop one night when I had a flashback to 20 years previous - the cadet gave an order and I executed British style!  They're still laughing about that one..

Around the same time, I also introduced myself to a visiting cadet from NCWG using my former RAF rank...   I have never seen anyone look quite so confused   I'm hoping it isn't 'an age thing' but....!

Getting to the thread, I have one simple view of D&C: do it right.  Nothing looks so wrong as someone attempting D&C and failing to execute correctly.  If all you know how to do is to report correctly and salute, do it with style and be proud of it.

If you're around the cadet program there's is no real excuse; you really should be able to critique the cadets and not always rely on the 'knowledgeable cadet' - they often learn by osmosis and we (my squadron) demonstrated recently that it isn't always good knowledge they're absorbing.  If you're not around the CP, you should still be able to do the basics.  Cadets salute officers and smartly and properly returning that salute is very important.

[JeffDG]

Around the same time, I also introduced myself to a visiting cadet from NCWG using my former RAF rank...   I have never seen anyone look quite so confused   I'm hoping it isn't 'an age thing' but....!

The puzzled looks I get when introducing Lts and Lt Cols have mostly died out for me.  When I made Capt it was nice, because I usually got a puzzled look when introducing myself before that.

[Walkman]

I have to chuckle at the "I wish this was included in Level 1" comments. This material is included in Level 1. The problem is units playing lip service to Level 1 or treating as an on-line course.

Now that L1 is going back to an in-person class, the opportunity opens up for some better instruction. I did the home study version of L1. I keep working on my basic drill movements here and there. Eventually I'll get 'em right.