PD Progression, Grade Structure & Professionalism

[ZigZag911]

Hey, I'm all for WO grade restoration...I was one in CAP (both cadet and senior)...my impression was USAF looked down on it (mainly the super-grade thing with NCOs), but it's interesting to hear there is at least some sentiment for bring it back in the Air Force.

As you say, we have FO structure and insignia, distinct from RM...might be simpler to go with that (which connects, BTW, to Army Air Corps rank structure from World War II)

[Private Investigator]

If they expand the FO grades, what do you do with them when billeted on a Base for activities and conferences etc.?  I'm sure they have instructions for WO's from other services, but the FO grades only exist in CAP...

Simply rename the grades as Warrant Officer, and redesign the insignia accordingly.

Exactly, on "Star Trek" was 'Scotty' a Chief Warrant Officer? 

Holly Cow Batman, we've gone full circle like we were in the 50's.  I personally like the WO rank better than the FO grades anyway.

[Eclipse]

No.

During the Original series he was a Lt Commander.  By the movies he had been promoted to Commander
and by Star Trek III had been promoted to Captain.

Enlisted grades (and anything else other then officer grades) were not seen in Star Trek until Next Gen,
and not used very much, really, until DS9.

Miles O'Brien was probably the most prominent enlisted person in most of the TV shows, and his
grade changed a lot in his early appearances.

[Private Investigator]

Roger that, thank you sir   :clap:

[Eclipse]

I live to serve.

Sadly, possessing "useful" information like this is likely the reason that, to this day, I
am unable to comprehend carburetor adjustments or IP Addressing, despite having read
a significant amount on both of those subjects.

[SarDragon]

I live to serve.

Sadly, possessing "useful" information like this is likely the reason that, to this day, I
am unable to comprehend carburetor adjustments or IP Addressing, despite having read
a significant amount on both of those subjects.

Carburetor - French for don't mess with it.

[a2capt]

carburetor adjustments = turn set screws all the way closed. Turn back 2 turns. Leave it alone.

[Shuman 14]

Silly question, but is there a way to refuse a promotion in CAP.

In an example cited above the USMC Officer who joined to spend more time with his son, could he refuse any promotion and just be a SMWOG so he can participate but not be "in charge" of anything?

And if that ever happens, make sure a photographer is there. Because you'll need photographs to help the sculptor chisel out the statue of the first USMC captain to say "Nah, I'm fine wearing cutouts and saluting Second Lieutenants who've only been in CAP 6 months."

And if he's not fine with it, he shouldn't be in CAP to begin with.

I was kinda thinking the same thing. In the the USCGAux, I'm just a member, I hold no appointed or elected office so I have no "rank" other than a member device/boards.

I have no problem saluting any Warrant or Commissioned Officer that I pass in that uniform, even when I outrank them in my actual grade.

It's professionalism and respect for the uniform you're currently wearing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

carburetor adjustments = turn set screws all the way closed. Turn back 2 turns. Leave it alone.

My father actually patented a carburettor cleaning device back in the '60s.  Unfortunately  it would be largely obsolete today since almost everything is fuel-injected.

I was kinda thinking the same thing. In the the USCGAux, I'm just a member, I hold no appointed or elected office so I have no "rank" other than a member device/boards.

I have no problem saluting any Warrant or Commissioned Officer that I pass in that uniform, even when I outrank them in my actual grade.

It's professionalism and respect for the uniform you're currently wearing.

I didn't either, when I was an Auxiliarist.  However, the Aux has very little in the way of PD, and I never did master the alphabet-soup of office abbreviations.

[DoubleSecret]

Simply rename the grades as Warrant Officer, and redesign the insignia accordingly.

CAP appropriately avoids referring to its officers (2d Lt and higher) as "commissioned officers," as they lack commissions.
That being said, I doubt we'd ever get approval to create warrant officers who lack warrants as well as commissions.

If logic were mandatory in such matters, however, we wouldn't have flight officers who don't, well ... fly.

Given the lack of a CAP commissioned officer corps, I'm not quite sure how we manage to have SSgt-CMSgt personnel referred to as a CAP noncommissioned officer corps.  "Noncommissioned" distinguishes that category from "commissioned," which we lack.  History and bureaucratic inertia, no doubt.

Sincerely,
An uncommissioned officer

[Storm Chaser]

Using that logic, Chief Warrant Officers 2-5 wouldn't hold a commission either, but in the U.S. they do. In addition, not every Airman in the Air Force is, well... an airman (in the strictest sense of the word).

[ColonelJack]

Simply rename the grades as Warrant Officer, and redesign the insignia accordingly.

CAP appropriately avoids referring to its officers (2d Lt and higher) as "commissioned officers," as they lack commissions.
That being said, I doubt we'd ever get approval to create warrant officers who lack warrants as well as commissions.

If logic were mandatory in such matters, however, we wouldn't have flight officers who don't, well ... fly.

Given the lack of a CAP commissioned officer corps, I'm not quite sure how we manage to have SSgt-CMSgt personnel referred to as a CAP noncommissioned officer corps.  "Noncommissioned" distinguishes that category from "commissioned," which we lack.  History and bureaucratic inertia, no doubt.

Sincerely,
An uncommissioned officer

Well, you see, there's the difference, right there in your signature to the post.

CAP NCOs are "non-commissioned."

CAP officers are "uncommissioned."

(Bows)  Thank you!  Tip your servers ... I'll be here all week.

Jack

[Mitchell 1969]

Simply rename the grades as Warrant Officer, and redesign the insignia accordingly.

CAP appropriately avoids referring to its officers (2d Lt and higher) as "commissioned officers," as they lack commissions.
That being said, I doubt we'd ever get approval to create warrant officers who lack warrants as well as commissions.

If logic were mandatory in such matters, however, we wouldn't have flight officers who don't, well ... fly.

Given the lack of a CAP commissioned officer corps, I'm not quite sure how we manage to have SSgt-CMSgt personnel referred to as a CAP noncommissioned officer corps.  "Noncommissioned" distinguishes that category from "commissioned," which we lack.  History and bureaucratic inertia, no doubt.

Sincerely,
An uncommissioned officer

Well, you see, there's the difference, right there in your signature to the post.

CAP NCOs are "non-commissioned."

CAP officers are "uncommissioned."

(Bows)  Thank you!  Tip your servers ... I'll be here all week.

Jack

So......CAP has.....

NCOs and......UCOs.

A maybe interesting side note - the Indian Army, when India belonged to the "Empreror of India" or "Empress of India," was not part of the British Army, even though it had British Officers holding royal commissions in the Indian Army. The Indian Army also had Indians serving as officers - known as "VCOs," or "Viceroy Commissioned Officers." They were exactly the same will also being totally different, as only the British could accomplish.

[Eclipse]

Every adult member above the grade of "Senior Member" is a "Non-Commissioned Officer", since
even those wearing insignia which emulates military grade, do not hold a commission or warrant.
Those who actually >are< in the military notwithstanding, since it's irrelevant in this context. 

So, for starters, the term "NCO", is meaningless in a CAP context.

We use the term "appointed" as a generic term to replace "commissioned" in a CAP context,
however that is also incorrect, since the majority of CAP members were not "appointments"
but "promotions".

CAPR 35-5, Page 3:
"1-2. Appointment and Promotion Systems. Senior members may qualify for appointment or
promotion to CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grades under the following provisions:"

Per 35-5, most members are simply "promoted" to their next grade.

In the context of the actual regulations, I have no idea what you'd refer to the
"Members who don't want to be officers" category.

They are not "enlisted".

They are not "Non-Commissioned".

They >are< "promoted".

Not only is the Military NCO-Officer paradigm unworkable from a practical perspective in a volunteer organization.
There isn't even terminology that fits the idea in a logical way within our regulations.

[RiverAux]

I really don't see why this whole "commissioned" thing keeps coming up.  It is entirely meaningless.   Especially since "commissioned" does not necessarily imply either someone in the military or a commission from the President.   I can "commission" all sorts of stuff. 

[Storm Chaser]

Most of the terms we use in CAP don't have the same meaning as they do in the military and are only used because of tradition and/or to give CAP its paramilitary nature as the Air Force Auxiliary. Take for example the title "commander". Commanders in CAP don't really command in the strict sense of the word. They lead and manage. They don't have real command authority, yet we use the title.

I wouldn't put too much thought into this whole "commissioned" vs. "non-commissioned" officer. As I said before, even in the military, chief warrant officers don't have warrants, but commissions, yet they're still called warrant officers. I guess we could just call CAP NCOs "sergeants" instead of NCOs; it would be a more accurate term. But everyone's familiar with the term "NCO" and I don't think anyone would be confused into thinking that our officers are "commissioned" just because we also have "non-commissioned" officers.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Commanders command. Can't be any other way. Lead and manage? Definitely, but sometimes command decisions need to be made, and that's what commanders are for. Can they back up their command of it is disobayed? Perhaps. But typically those members choose to disassociate themselves well before any command action takes place.

[Eclipse]

Most of the terms we use in CAP don't have the same meaning as they do in the military and are only used because of tradition and/or to give CAP its paramilitary nature as the Air Force Auxiliary. Take for example the title "commander". Commanders in CAP don't really command in the strict sense of the word. They lead and manage. They don't have real command authority, yet we use the title.

I'd buy that.  Day to day, it's functionally the same thing, but at the road level it's not the
same as the "do it or die" authority of an actual "commander'.

No one below the BoG is an "Officer" either.

An "officer", by definition,  is someone with authority within an organization.

Up until the reorg, Wing CC's were considered corporate officers as they sat on the National Board.
Now they simply have delegated authorization for expenditures and management of their particular state.

[Storm Chaser]

Commanders command. Can't be any other way. Lead and manage? Definitely, but sometimes command decisions need to be made, and that's what commanders are for. Can they back up their command of it is disobayed? Perhaps. But typically those members choose to disassociate themselves well before any command action takes place.

In the U.S. military, a commander derives his/her authority from the commission they hold (given by the president) and by law through the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). CAP commanders don't have that type of command authority, as they are civilians in a volunteer, non-profit organization. They have authority given by the organization; no doubt about that. But is it really command authority in the strictest sense of the word? I would have to say "no".

[Eclipse]

But is it really command authority in the strictest sense of the word? I would have to say "no".

I agree, it is delegated management authority at best.

The officers (BoG), appoint people to manage their organization, but the only command authority in the sense people understand from the movies,
stops at the national level.