PD Progression, Grade Structure & Professionalism

[DrKem]

I just spent the last 30 minutes looking for the CSAG minutes on the CAP page.  No joy.  Can someone please post the link?  Thanks!

E-services/CAP National Agenda and Meeting notes/ CSAG Nov 2013

Thanks!

[RiverAux]

Folks, I just don't see temporary promotions of former military officers to equivalent CAP rank as something that would fly and would probably be worse than not giving them the promotion to begin with.  They are not going to like that it looks like they've been massively demoted and while a few may be inspired to get caught up on CAP PD in order to avoid that perceived embarrassment, I think most would just say, "to heck with this" and leave rather than be demoted. 

Now, some might say that those folks probably shouldn't be in CAP anyway if they are that sensitive, but I think that if we told them right up front -- everyone is treated the same no matter what their past history, that they're going to be much more likely to accept it and get with the program. 

And frankly, its not likely that most of the field grade officers are going to have the time or money to get caught up on PD in a relatively short period of time, especially under the new proposed program that basically makes you do stuff a grade earlier than now.  Unless, that is they've already got the military school training that can substitute for some of the CAP program ready to go (which may not always be the case depending on that individual's service history). 

And the biggest problem with the temporary promotions is that it actually doesn't solve the issue of having brand new members that know nothing about CAP representing us for several years without really knowing what CAP is about. 

[Storm Chaser]

^ You make some valid points. However, I believe that lack of knowledge, which can be acquire over time, is not as big of a problem as lack of responsibilities and contributions within the organization. I don't need or want a Lt Col that doesn't perform. There are reasonable expectations that come with grade.

Besides, an Air Force Lt Col is already going to have many PD requirements such as ECI 13 (equivalent), SOS, ACSC, RSC (equivalent) and NSC (equivalent). The timeframe to complete the rest doesn't have to be short, but the member must demonstrate progression. Either way, the weight should be placed on the member's contribution and responsibilities in CAP.

I'm open to other solutions, for example, removing or reducing the time in grade requirement; all other PD requirements must still be accomplished. I'm not sure that would fly with some, as it would delay promotion further. Regardless of what we do, I want to make sure that when a new member is promoted to Maj or Lt Col, that he/she has a level of responsibility commensurable with that grade. Otherwise, we should welcome them to CAP as Lts.

[JeffDG]

OK, so I hear some heartburn about people pinning on rank without responsibility...so why not fix that? 

What I would propose would be that each echelon have Command grade (CG), then various roles within that echelon be based off of that.  So, Vice Commanders, Deputy Commanders, Chief of Staff would be CG-1.  Senior staff officers (and I define that as those who at Wing would be "Director of...") would be CG-2.  Junior staff members (those not covered by senior staff) would be CG-3.  Assistants to would be one less than the primary officer.  Members who are multi-hatted could wear their highest-grade of their positions.



You could combine this with the PD program, and say that a member would need to achieve a level in the PD program to wear a particular grade.  Grades would be temporary, and made permanent after serving in a position for a time based upon grade.  This way, you would know that the Lt Col you're looking at holds, or at least has successfully held, a position of some authority and should know what he's talking about.

[Eclipse]

Sounds good for the first few years, but as long as you have a permanent route, and no "up or out" you still
wind up in the same place eventually.

Grade only has meaning when there is the weight of responsibility and authority behind it, in THAT order, and ramifications
for poor performance or abuse.

[Storm Chaser]

Sounds good for the first few years, but as long as you have a permanent route, and no "up or out" you still
wind up in the same place eventually.

Grade only has meaning when there is the weight of responsibility and authority behind it, in THAT order, and ramifications
for poor performance or abuse.

Agree. In the military, there's an expectation that with increased grade comes increased responsibility and authority. Not so much in CAP, were a member can opt for the position as "Snack Officer", while holding the grade of Lt Col.

[JeffDG]

Sounds good for the first few years, but as long as you have a permanent route, and no "up or out" you still
wind up in the same place eventually.

Grade only has meaning when there is the weight of responsibility and authority behind it, in THAT order, and ramifications
for poor performance or abuse.

Not necessarily.

If you want to progress in grade, you'll have to move "up".  If you're happy as a career 1st Lt, then that's fine too.  What I'm proposing is exactly that...you get grade when you take on responsibility.  If you stay as a unit staff officer, you'll top out as a 1st Lt.  Take on more responsibility and become a Group staffer, and you can move up to Captain.  Become a squadron commander and you can become a Major.

In addition, I'd make the grades temporary, essentially in line with the current TIG requirements to achieve the grade.  So, if you serve as a senior unit staff officer for 18 months, your 1st Lt bars become permanent.  Group Commander for a full term (4 years), you get to keep your Lt Col rank.

It may not denote current responsibility, but at least you can look at a Lt Col and know that's he's been there, done that, assumed considerable responsibility (Group Command, Wing Vice Commander/CS, Region Senior Staff or National Junior Staff), and done so successfully.

[Eclipse]

OK, I see.  Would go a long way towards fixing things.

Might be fun to normalize everyone, too!  Lt Col Neverwhere?  You're now 1st Lt Neverwhere.  Congratulations!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I will not re-hash my promotion problems, other than to say that there is still so much arbitrariness, especially with who is deemed worthy of going from company grade to field grade.  Personalities often (and are in my case) play heavily into it.

I am not advocating a "just check the boxes" approach, as some here have accused me of, nor do I think a cookie-cutter approach is good.

The upshot of it is, for me anyway, that I will probably never progress beyond Captain, while I have seen many, many people get gold and silver bottlecaps for knowing the "right" people at Group, Wing or Region, or by being sycophants, neither of which I am skilled at, and in the latter case will never do.

I am almost eligible for the Paul E. Garber award, but not for promotion.

JeffDG's recommendations sound sensible to me but will never happen.

That is all I will say because I do not want to start another firestorm.

[RiverAux]

The proposed system looks like it actually addresses the responsibility problem.  I'm a little concerned about how it would play out in practice, but it does make it much more clearer to those making the promotion decisions that it isn't just a reward for past actions. 

[Shuman 14]

Silly question, but is there a way to refuse a promotion in CAP.

In an example cited above the USMC Officer who joined to spend more time with his son, could he refuse any promotion and just be a SMWOG so he can participate but not be "in charge" of anything?

[Eclipse]

Just tell your CC you're not interested in promoting, and/or only wear uniforms that don't display your grade.

And your CAP grade, and whether you're "in charge of anything" are not, in any way, connected.

[Shuman 14]

So in my case, if I was to switch from patron to actual member, I could come in as a SMWOG, not as a Major, and do all the PD courses and training to qualify for the various CAP badges and wings and never have to put a gold oakleaf on my uniform i f I wanted to?

[lordmonar]

Silly question, but is there a way to refuse a promotion in CAP.

In an example cited above the USMC Officer who joined to spend more time with his son, could he refuse any promotion and just be a SMWOG so he can participate but not be "in charge" of anything?

Sure.....no one "has to" get promoted.

[lordmonar]

So in my case, if I was to switch from patron to actual member, I could come in as a SMWOG, not as a Major, and do all the PD courses and training to qualify for the various CAP badges and wings and never have to put a gold oakleaf on my uniform i f I wanted to?

No....in your case.....you ARE a major....even if you are a patron.  All your old statuses are still there.

If you wanted to become a SMWOG you would have to do a CAPF2 "demoting" you to SMWOG and send the soft copy to NHQ so they could change it in E-Services.

[Eclipse]

So in my case, if I was to switch from patron to actual member, I could come in as a SMWOG, not as a Major, and do all the PD courses and training to qualify for the various CAP badges and wings and never have to put a gold oakleaf on my uniform i f I wanted to?

You would transfer over without grade, regardless, and if you don't say anything about advanced grade, no one will care, either.
No one is going to submit you for military equivalence if you don't ask for it, since for starters they won't have your records.

However I wouldn't go around wearing your "no grade" as some kind of badge of honor, either.

Lord - to my understanding he joined as a patron direct into 996, he's got no grade at all on file.

[Shuman 14]

Lordmonar, I'm not sure I am listed as a Major in E Services, my patron member ID says SMWOG. 

[Eclipse]

Actually it says "SM", the without grade isn't actually a "thing".

Patron members are not eligible for promotions while in that status, and your military equivalence would
have had to be specifically requested and approved.

[Shuman 14]

Lord - to my understanding he joined as a patron, he's got no grade at all on file.

Correct.

[Shuman 14]

I guess what I'm saying is, if I was to to switch over, I wouldn't want to be a Major. I know a little bit about CAP but not enough to be the subject matter expert that wearing that rank would say that I am... or at least should be.