Seeking opinions of the almighty CAP ES Gods and Goddesses

[pascocap2002]

Qualified and current are separate.

Qualified means that you have completed the requirements to hold the position. Current means that you your proficiency is meets or exceeds an established minimum.

For example, a pilots certificate never expires, but his currency does. If he doesn't fly for a number of months/years, all he needs is to pass a medical and demonstrate proficiency in order to fly again. The same system mostly works for ES ratings. In our ES world, if you've lapsed long enough, you get purged from the system, and have to start over.

This would make some sense to me because I remember in 2003 through 2007, I earned a lot and it was in the system but then I went inactive in the CAP ES world for a few years and I see I am expired in everything and I no longer see where I am allowed to wear the ES awards I earned in the past.

Even though I show expired for the awards, that must have meant that I earned them in the past but yet I was informed by a ES guru in my wing (2 years ago) that I cannot wear the awards (reason was "not enough documentation"). I am confused as to what more needs to be documented. If it shows up in E-Services as have held the achievement in the past and now its expired, then why would it be denied for approval to wear the badge? Sometimes I just don't get it.

[SarDragon]

In our ES world, if you've lapsed long enough, you get purged from the system, and have to start over.

You don't get purged, you drop to trainee status.

I had a couple of long-expired ratings, and, while they may have been deleted at the Wing level, they disappeared from my 101 card. They are not totally gone out of eServices, because they show up as expired in my Skills Evaluator listing. The olde task sign-offs still appear on the SQTRs, too.

YMMV.

[SarDragon]

 

Qualified and current are separate.

Qualified means that you have completed the requirements to hold the position. Current means that you your proficiency is meets or exceeds an established minimum.

For example, a pilots certificate never expires, but his currency does. If he doesn't fly for a number of months/years, all he needs is to pass a medical and demonstrate proficiency in order to fly again. The same system mostly works for ES ratings. In our ES world, if you've lapsed long enough, you get purged from the system, and have to start over.

This would make some sense to me because I remember in 2003 through 2007, I earned a lot and it was in the system but then I went inactive in the CAP ES world for a few years and I see I am expired in everything and I no longer see where I am allowed to wear the ES awards I earned in the past.

Even though I show expired for the awards, that must have meant that I earned them in the past but yet I was informed by a ES guru in my wing (2 years ago) that I cannot wear the awards (reason was "not enough documentation"). I am confused as to what more needs to be documented. If it shows up in E-Services as have held the achievement in the past and now its expired, then why would it be denied for approval to wear the badge? Sometimes I just don't get it.

The awards may never have been formalized (F 2a, or eServices entry). Being qualified, and having the rating awarded are two different things.

The following awards, once awarded, never expire:

CAP Basic Emergency Services Qualification Badge
CAP Senior Emergency Services Qualification Badge
CAP Master Emergency Services Qualification Badge
CAP Basic Ground Team Badge
CAP Senior Ground Team Badge
CAP Master Ground Team Badge
CAP Emergency Services Patch

Also these:

Cadet Pre-Solo Pilot Rating
Solo Pilot Rating
Pilot Rating
Senior Pilot Rating
Command Pilot Rating
Glider Pilot Rating
Balloon Pilot Rating
CAP Observer Rating
CAP Senior Observer Rating
CAP Master Observer Rating

Once awarded, you can wear them forever, unless revoked for cause.

Here are mine, copied directly from eServices:

Qualification	Expiration
CAP Emergency Services Patch	Does not expire
GES - General Emergency Services	Does not expire
IS100 - IS-100	Does not expire
IS700 - IS-700	Does not expire
MO - Mission Observer	30 Nov 2014
MRO - Mission Radio Operator	31 Jul 2016
MS - Mission Scanner	31 May 2016
SET - Skills Evaluator Training	Does not expire
UDF - Urban Direction Finding Team	28 Feb 2014
CAP Observer Rating	Does not expire

[pascocap2002]

[/quote]

I had a couple of long-expired ratings, and, while they may have been deleted at the Wing level, they disappeared from my 101 card. They are not totally gone out of eServices, because they show up as expired in my Skills Evaluator listing. The olde task sign-offs still appear on the SQTRs, too.

YMMV.
[/quote]

Thats exactly what I see in my E-Services as well. In my Skills Evaluator listing, I see what I used to have for ratings.

[Eclipse]

Nothing gets deleted "at the wing level", you're either expired or you aren't.

(Yes, quals can be removed, but that can be done by anyone with the appropriate rights and isn't tied to the wing.)

[pascocap2002]

For clarity, I open my SQTR and see:

MO - Mission Observer
Status EXPIRED
Completed 16 Jul 2006
Expiration  16 Jul 2009

Does that mean I never earned the right to wear the wings?

[JeffDG]

For clarity, I open my SQTR and see:

MO - Mission Observer
Status EXPIRED
Completed 16 Jul 2006
Expiration  16 Jul 2009

Does that mean I never earned the right to wear the wings?

Did you submit for your Mission Observer rating?  It's separate from the qualification.  You need the qualification to submit for it, but it is a separate process.

It's not done via SQTR, but via the ES Awards option in OpsQuals:


Oops...wrong one...gimme a sec to get the right screen-grab...

OK, here's the right one, it's under CAP Ratings:

[pascocap2002]

I did, and it was rejected saying "lack of documentation" (that was back in 2012). So I am not sure what more documentation do they need if it is all on record with NHQ? Upon asking, I was not answered back.

[JeffDG]

I did, and it was rejected saying "lack of documentation" (that was back in 2012). So I am not sure what more documentation do they need if it is all on record with NHQ? Upon asking, I was not answered back.

Did you ever submit for the Observer Rating while you were a qualified observer?

If yes, it doesn't expire, and will continue to show in your CAP Ratings section, and you can continue to wear.

If not, then you probably cannot be awarded it until you renew.  The award criteria indicates that you need to "Be qualified as a CAP mission observer in accordance with the CAP 60-series regulations", which if you're currently expired, you're not "qualified" as an observer right now.

The Observer Rating and wings are not automatic upon becoming an MO.  It should be routine to add the rating once you are qualified, but it is a separate request.

[pascocap2002]

That clarifies things, I will guess I will hop in the airplane and do missions.

Its always good to train and since its a goal to be more active.. I will go ahead and get on that to get current.

Thanks for the information.

[JeffDG]

That clarifies things, I will guess I will hop in the airplane and do missions.

Its always good to train and since its a goal to be more active.. I will go ahead and get on that to get current.

Thanks for the information.

No problem.

Once you renew, go to the CAP ratings and hit the checkbox beside the Observer Rating and submit it...if you're current, it should be nearly automatic approval (at least when I see them from qualified observers, I approve them immediately in my Group)

[pascocap2002]

I will do that. Thanks.

Since I just got back to the states, its my intent to regain my old qualifications be active again. CAP has really done a lot for me and without my beginnings in CAP operations, I would not have the interest in ES that I have so its time I give back and to do so, I must re-qualify.

[Garibaldi]

Qualified and current are separate.

Qualified means that you have completed the requirements to hold the position. Current means that you your proficiency is meets or exceeds an established minimum.

For example, a pilots certificate never expires, but his currency does. If he doesn't fly for a number of months/years, all he needs is to pass a medical and demonstrate proficiency in order to fly again. The same system mostly works for ES ratings. In our ES world, if you've lapsed long enough, you get purged from the system, and have to start over.

This would make some sense to me because I remember in 2003 through 2007, I earned a lot and it was in the system but then I went inactive in the CAP ES world for a few years and I see I am expired in everything and I no longer see where I am allowed to wear the ES awards I earned in the past.

Even though I show expired for the awards, that must have meant that I earned them in the past but yet I was informed by a ES guru in my wing (2 years ago) that I cannot wear the awards (reason was "not enough documentation"). I am confused as to what more needs to be documented. If it shows up in E-Services as have held the achievement in the past and now its expired, then why would it be denied for approval to wear the badge? Sometimes I just don't get it.

The awards may never have been formalized (F 2a, or eServices entry). Being qualified, and having the rating awarded are two different things.

The following awards, once awarded, never expire:

CAP Basic Emergency Services Qualification Badge
CAP Senior Emergency Services Qualification Badge
CAP Master Emergency Services Qualification Badge
CAP Basic Ground Team Badge
CAP Senior Ground Team Badge
CAP Master Ground Team Badge
CAP Emergency Services Patch

Also these:

Cadet Pre-Solo Pilot Rating
Solo Pilot Rating
Pilot Rating
Senior Pilot Rating
Command Pilot Rating
Glider Pilot Rating
Balloon Pilot Rating
CAP Observer Rating
CAP Senior Observer Rating
CAP Master Observer Rating

Once awarded, you can wear them forever, unless revoked for cause.

Here are mine, copied directly from eServices:

Qualification	Expiration
CAP Emergency Services Patch	Does not expire
GES - General Emergency Services	Does not expire
IS100 - IS-100	Does not expire
IS700 - IS-700	Does not expire
MO - Mission Observer	30 Nov 2014
MRO - Mission Radio Operator	31 Jul 2016
MS - Mission Scanner	31 May 2016
SET - Skills Evaluator Training	Does not expire
UDF - Urban Direction Finding Team	28 Feb 2014
CAP Observer Rating	Does not expire

This is why I still wear my observer wings. I spent too much time in a plane to earn them and I was so relieved to hear I didn't have to take them off, even though I can't fly anymore.

[pascocap2002]

So, here is the update:

I attended a SAREX and things went very well. I flew a few missions and got up to date on my Observer and Scanner. It took a few weeks for things to go up the chain of command but I got current as an Observer and Scanner and submitted it. I then applied for my CAP drivers license and submitted that. About 2 weeks later, Scanner, Observer, and Drivers License were approved:

CAP Emergency Services Patch   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
CUL - Communications Unit Leader   31 Aug 2009   EXPIRED   Remove
CUL - Communications Unit Leader   31 Mar 2016   TRAINING   Remove
FLM - Flight Line Marshaller   31 Aug 2009   EXPIRED   Remove
FLM - Flight Line Marshaller   31 Mar 2016   TRAINING   Remove
FLS - Flight Line Supervisor   31 Aug 2009   EXPIRED   Remove
FLS - Flight Line Supervisor   31 Mar 2016   TRAINING   Remove
GES - General Emergency Services   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
GTL - Ground Team Leader   31 Mar 2010   EXPIRED   Remove
GTL - Ground Team Leader   31 Mar 2016   TRAINING   Remove
GTM1 - Ground Team Member Level 1   31 Aug 2009   EXPIRED   Remove
GTM1 - Ground Team Member Level 1   31 Mar 2016   TRAINING   Remove
GTM2 - Ground Team Member Level 2   31 Mar 2014   TRAINING   Remove
GTM3 - Ground Team Member Level 3   31 Mar 2014   TRAINING   Remove
ICS300 - ICS-300   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
ICS400 - ICS-400   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
IS100 - IS-100   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
IS200 - IS-200   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
IS700 - IS-700   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
IS800 - IS-800   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
MO - Mission Observer   31 Mar 2017   ACTIVE   Remove
MRO - Mission Radio Operator   31 Aug 2009   EXPIRED   Remove
MRO - Mission Radio Operator   31 Mar 2016   TRAINING   Remove
MS - Mission Scanner   31 Mar 2017   ACTIVE   Remove
MSO - Mission Safety Officer   31 Aug 2009   EXPIRED   Remove
MSO - Mission Safety Officer   31 Mar 2016   TRAINING   Remove
SET - Skills Evaluator Training   Does not expire   ACTIVE   Remove
UDF - Urban Direction Finding Team   31 Mar 2015   Expired but then resubmitted and not approved (same issue I had originally with Observer, I earned it but its expired.

Drv's Lic (S,7,8,9,12,15,PT,SPV,TT<2000,TT>2000)12/14/17


I have a lot more to go to get back the qualifications I am expired in but its a good start and a great learning experience. I cannot say anything negative because things worked out very well and I learned a lot. It was great to get back into a CAP aircraft, it was great to start helping CAP again, and it was a fantastic experience to reconnect with people I have not seen in years.

Thank you JeffDG, Eclipse, and SarDragon for helping me understand some things. I sincerely appreciate it and may call upon your help in clarifications in the future.

I am looking at my expired qualifications and I do not see anything entered in the SQTR's so I am puzzled how I could have earned something, then 3 years later expire in that something, and then never see any SQTR's for the original tasks that I performed. Its odd and its the reason for original denial of my UDF and Observer recertification. Now that I have re-flown everything for Scanner and Observer and have both paper and digital SQTR's and are awarded the rating (the wings), the patch, and the Observer and Scanner on my 101 card, I will work on UDF and others to get them up to date. Then I will go for learning new things and progressing within CAP ES.

Its been a long road and I am just getting started again so thanks for the help and understanding.

-J

[Eclipse]

^ Likely a symptom of the OPS Quals upgrades and whether your wing used the WMU past the directives to get off of it.

We've seen a lot of "old" stuff not come over from the WMU or be retained past 3 years during the OPS Quals conversions.

[a2capt]

Yes, the WMU stuff was not consistent in transfer. As eServices progressed from a glorified pilot log book, to  'MIMS' and finally to something useful, I'd made it a point to make stuff match.

[SunDog]

I have not been active in CAP and CAP operations as I have spend a vast amount of time out of the country from 2006 until now. I have kept my CAP membership and attended meetings while in the states but I really have not been active in CAP.

I am expired:

CUL
FLM
FLS
GTL
GTM-1
GTM-2
GTM-3
MO
MRO
MS
MSO
UDF

Even thought my Eservices says I am expired, can I still wear the badges?

Shoot, wear 'em. You earned them. . .if it turns out you shouldn't, you'll be forgiven. 

[pascocap2002]

Sundog, I have had the privilege to work with an amazing squadron commander for the past year and I have to be honest and say that he has dealt with things like this for a while. Its an issue with the "old system" and the "new system" Since I earned things prior to online documentation, its hard since things show up online as expired but then there are no original SQTR's in the system. This means that if I submit for the right to wear a badge, it will be denied and the reason will be "lack of documentation".

This means that I will just need to attend a SAREX or training and get the renewal SQTR done and make that item active and then apply for the right to wear the badge. Sadly, thats one heck of a process but it is what it is. I have been up and down wing to get answers and that seems to be the only way possible to get approval to wear the badges. I have to agree with the approving authority telling me this because if I were in their shoes, I would have a hard time approving something like the wear of a badge (ie. Master Ground Team) without any SQTR's for anything ground team related.

My moral side says that it should be approved because its expired, that means you must have earned it in the past in order for it to be expired. There really are two sides to this and I see both. Either way, I don't mind retraining and going back to the basics in CAP ES. The more we train, the better we get and the more effective we can be.

[Eclipse]

Anything "expired" need only the requal tasks and one mission to requalify.

The individual tasks may not show, but "expired" means you had it at one time or another.

If the system is blocking proper requal, the Helpdesk can fix it with an email.

[SunDog]

Sundog, I have had the privilege to work with an amazing squadron commander for the past year and I have to be honest and say that he has dealt with things like this for a while. Its an issue with the "old system" and the "new system" Since I earned things prior to online documentation, its hard since things show up online as expired but then there are no original SQTR's in the system. This means that if I submit for the right to wear a badge, it will be denied and the reason will be "lack of documentation".

This means that I will just need to attend a SAREX or training and get the renewal SQTR done and make that item active and then apply for the right to wear the badge. Sadly, thats one heck of a process but it is what it is. I have been up and down wing to get answers and that seems to be the only way possible to get approval to wear the badges. I have to agree with the approving authority telling me this because if I were in their shoes, I would have a hard time approving something like the wear of a badge (ie. Master Ground Team) without any SQTR's for anything ground team related.

My moral side says that it should be approved because its expired, that means you must have earned it in the past in order for it to be expired. There really are two sides to this and I see both. Either way, I don't mind retraining and going back to the basics in CAP ES. The more we train, the better we get and the more effective we can be.

Good on ya, Mate! Super positive attitude; your squadron is lucky to have you. . .shame about the qual system being FUBAR. . .

Like Eclipse said, if it's further gacked, they can always brute-force the data.  Who knows! If someone fat-fingers something in the raw data, you might come out the other side as National Commander!