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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2013, 01:43:26 PM »

Yelling != "boot camp, semper psycho"

Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Also, since an encampment isn't boot camp, not even basics cadet training, the comparison  is at the same time, inappropriate >and< troubling.

The only reason anyone should be yelling during an encampment, or for that matter any CAP activity, is to be heard over the din.
No one should be "getting into anyone's face" especially one cadet to another,

No.

One.
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Elioron
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2013, 01:54:00 PM »

Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Also, since an encampment isn't boot camp, not even basics cadet training, the comparison  is at the same time, inappropriate >and< troubling.

I didn't make the comparison.  People seems to do it anytime someone mentions that a voice was raised in the slightest.  Inappropriate and troubling indeed that people would assume loud noises are automatically indicative of abuse.

No one should be "getting into anyone's face" especially one cadet to another,

No.

One.

Nobody's saying they should.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2013, 02:00:05 PM »

Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Basic Military Training.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2013, 02:02:02 PM »

By admission they do in PAWG. I'm just filing this under "I hope I don't move there" as I would seriously have to consider further CAP involvement at that point.
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Elioron
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« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2013, 02:12:13 PM »

Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Basic Military Training.

No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2013, 02:26:22 PM »

No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.

I thought you were advocating the opposite.

"!=" may be a correct symbol for that, but "≠" is more clear.
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Elioron
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« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2013, 02:31:56 PM »

No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.

I thought you were advocating the opposite.

"!=" may be a correct symbol for that, but "≠" is more clear.

Sorry. Too much time playing with the code monkeys.  ;D
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2013, 02:47:22 PM »

Been to one lately?  You might be surprised.

Been to what?  Encampment?  Yes, the last two years.  My sons completed it the year before.

Basic Military Training.

No, but it really doesn't matter.  Yelling does not equal "boot camp"!  It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.

Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.
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Elioron
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2013, 03:07:47 PM »

Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.

So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?  ::)

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).
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Peeka
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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2013, 03:13:05 PM »

Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.
So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?  ::)

Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....

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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2013, 03:19:21 PM »

Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.

So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?  ::)

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).

I've staffed encampments as a cadet and as a SM.

Never once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE. Speaking loudly to a group is a skill. Yelling the DI line "GET OFF THE BUS MAGGOTS" shows too much FMJ viewing time, and too little learning about leadership.
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Elioron
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« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2013, 03:37:50 PM »

[Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....

I will yell as necessary, particularly to convey urgency or danger.  As far as I'm concerned, cadets under my care are my kids.  I need to teach them and protect them as my own and I take that responsibility very seriously.

Never once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE.

Where am I saying it is?  Where is anyone saying it is?  Yelling at the flight to "hurry up, not fast enough let's do it again" is not yelling in people's faces or abuse in any way.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2013, 03:56:17 PM »

The FMJ experience is an useful tool when used in the right application and with the proper restraint.

It immediately establishes who is boss to a bunch of kids who don't understand the concept of military discipline.

That said......most CAP cadets already understand this concept.

While a nice "Grab you gear, get off this bus and put your toes on the line!   15, 14, 13...." may be an appropriate tool at encampment.  It sets that tone.  Setting up reporting statements during the shake down "Sir! What!" also sets up the attention to detail.

The no-win, setting up cadets to fail is NOT a good learning tool.

The full on FMJ games should start on Day one but by the end of Day two there should not be a need for it.

IIRC even at USAF BMTS we by the third day or so we did not have any FMJ stuff going on.   Sure our TI yelled at us when we screwed up.  But the in your face just did not happen all that much.  In truth it takes too much time.

We did the pick them up, put them down drill, we did the "do it again" drill with reporting statements "Sir! Airman Harris Reports as Ordered" until we got it right.  But we never got no win situations. 

That's the difference between BMTS and Encampment.   Do the FMJ games early....keep them sane....but drop them and move on.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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Elioron
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« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2013, 04:27:52 PM »

The FMJ experience is an useful tool when used in the right application and with the proper restraint.

It immediately establishes who is boss to a bunch of kids who don't understand the concept of military discipline.

That said......most CAP cadets already understand this concept.

While a nice "Grab you gear, get off this bus and put your toes on the line!   15, 14, 13...." may be an appropriate tool at encampment.  It sets that tone.  Setting up reporting statements during the shake down "Sir! What!" also sets up the attention to detail.

The no-win, setting up cadets to fail is NOT a good learning tool.

The full on FMJ games should start on Day one but by the end of Day two there should not be a need for it.

IIRC even at USAF BMTS we by the third day or so we did not have any FMJ stuff going on.   Sure our TI yelled at us when we screwed up.  But the in your face just did not happen all that much.  In truth it takes too much time.

We did the pick them up, put them down drill, we did the "do it again" drill with reporting statements "Sir! Airman Harris Reports as Ordered" until we got it right.  But we never got no win situations. 

That's the difference between BMTS and Encampment.   Do the FMJ games early....keep them sane....but drop them and move on.

 :clap:

I would clarify "FML" in this case to our version of it: no personal insults or getting in people's faces.  It seems that would be obvious but based on what I've seen it isn't as obvious as we'd like.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2013, 04:41:06 PM »

[Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....

I will yell as necessary, particularly to convey urgency or danger.  As far as I'm concerned, cadets under my care are my kids.  I need to teach them and protect them as my own and I take that responsibility very seriously.

Never once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE.

Where am I saying it is?  Where is anyone saying it is?  Yelling at the flight to "hurry up, not fast enough let's do it again" is not yelling in people's faces or abuse in any way.

Read the OP again. The opinions up until your posts were based on what is included in the OP. When you started defending yelling, you came off sounding on the side of the antics listed in the OP.

Yelling at appropriate times, as already posted by many is ok. Getting into a cadets face, failing cadets at sign in if the pen is half an inch off the original imagined point, etc, as posted in the OP is NOT OK.

I don't think you are on the page with many of the posters. You seem to have the understanding that works. We're all commenting on what is presented in the OP, which is certainly NOT the type of situations you describe.

S&%T like this: VA Civil Air Patrol Encampment 2011

and that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2013, 04:56:37 PM »

So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?

Actually, you shouldn't.  I do it too, most parents do, but studies and experience show that it generally
doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal, it just makes things worse, and unless you practice the increasingly uncommon
"Nuclear Option" of corporal punishment, it eventually goes nowhere, just as countries threatening each other
with military strikes are considered impotent when they don't follow-through and tyrants when they do.

The first time you threaten a child and go nowhere, you're cooked, and left with nothing else in the tool bag to actually
fix the problem.

It comes down to your goals.  If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine.  Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year?  I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.

As a matter of fact, this is exactly what the new curriculum contains in its most current draft, and it's too long coming.

If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level.  If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).

An encampment's intended purpose is to enhance training received at the squadron level as well as present CAP in a standardized
way to provide tools and lessons that cadets bring back to their home squadrons to make things better.  Considering that they need Curry to get in, drill, basic discipline, ability to function in small squads, should not be new to any of them.

Owing to the inconsistencies in training across the organization, unfortunately, far too many cadets arrive at encampment
ill-prepared for the totality of the experience.  Many are away from home overnight for the first time in their lives,
may have no one else from their home unit attending, and might well have other issues that are either revealed or exacerbated
by the stress of the environment.  In a lot of cases yelling just shuts them down.

In days of olde, RDC's and DIs could, apparently inflict harm, and certainly PT, to coerce recruits - the yelling had a real threat on the end of it.  We do not have these tools, everyone is a willing volunteer in the process, and most cadets know that threats are hollow at best, beyond legit disciplinary action at which time our only recourse is membership termination.

When a recruit steps off the bus for BMT, he see the DI/TI/RDC as both a mythic-creature of epic experience and a huge gateway
to his ultimate goals.  There are also legal and real-word, whole life imlpications to disobeying. When a CAP cadet steps off the bus at encampment, he see the same goober cadet from his unit who yesterday had trouble with PT and rarely passes his academics on the first shot.  If that cadet starts yelling and acting hard-kewl, he's as likely to get laughed at as to be respected.

Nothing sets command tone and bearing like a cadet who can instruct his cadre in a direct, calm voice that shows
his experience and self-confidence, and nothing destroys it faster then one who runs himself out of breath trying to
emulate something he saw on TV.  Of course most of these cadets are unable to speak by day three, so sometimes it self-corrects.

BMT instructors have all been 'through it" themselves, receive direct and proper training, and then though peer-review before the
can train recruits, our people, simply put, do not.

People can do what they will with their kids, butif you're yelling at cadets for any reason other then to get their initial
attention, you're doing it wrong.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:09:18 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Eclipse
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« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2013, 04:59:04 PM »

and that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.

Isn't that video in the new RST?

I know it was circulated in a memo nationally that it was a big "no".
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Elioron
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« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2013, 05:02:06 PM »

When you started defending yelling, you came off sounding on the side of the antics listed in the OP.

I can see that now, thank you.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2013, 05:23:52 PM »

and that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.

Isn't that video in the new RST?

I know it was circulated in a memo nationally that it was a big "no".

I believe so. Seen so many now...too many.
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Elioron
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« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2013, 05:33:41 PM »

So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either.  Yelling is just awful, right?

Actually, you shouldn't.  I do it too, most parents do, but studies and experience show that it generally
doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal, it just makes things worse, and unless you practice the increasingly uncommon
"Nuclear Option" of corporal punishment, it eventually goes nowhere, just as countries threatening each other
with military strikes are considered impotent when they don't follow-through and tyrants when they do.

The first time you threaten a child and go nowhere, you're cooked, and left with nothing else in the tool bag to actually
fix the problem.

You seem to be equating yelling with threats, which it absolutely is not.  Threats, regardless of how loudly they're delivered, have no place in a training environment.

An encampment's intended purpose is to enhance training received at the squadron level as well present CAP in a standardized
way to provide tools and lessons that cadets bring back to their home squadrons to make things better.  Considering that they need Curry to get in, drill, basic discipline, ability to function in small squads, should not be new to any of them.

I would also argue that the purpose of encampment is to push cadets to show that they are more capable than they may think.  It is one of the most consistent things I've heard from cadets that go through it.  They gain a sense of accomplishment and a realization that by getting pushed out of their comfort zone they can work with their team and excel.

Owing to the inconsistencies in training across the organization, unfortunately, far too many cadets arrive at encampment
ill-prepared for the totality of the experience.  Many are away from home overnight for the first time in their lives,
may have no one else from their home unit attending, and might well have other issues that are either revealed or exacerbated
by the stress of the environment.  IN a lot of cases yelling just shuts them down.

That's why TAC officers are ever-present and vigilant.  The entire job of the TAC officer is to make sure that those cadets who are having these issues are cared for and counseled.  If they can't handle stress, they are going to have other issues in CAP (and life) and other accommodations may need to be created.  If they aren't able to cope, they are sent home so their parents and squadron staff can work with them.  In the two encampments with hundreds of cadets, none went home because they couldn't handle the stress.  Note that there is a difference between not wanting to deal with stress and not being able to deal with stress.  Giving cadets the option not to deal with it and being accepting of that is a huge disservice to them.

People can do what they will with their kids, butif you're yelling at cadets for any reason other then to get their initial
attention, you're doing it wrong.

Yelling has several purposes within our culture.  While it can be used to convey anger and intimidation, it can also convey urgency or excitement, used for emphasis, and for communicating over distance.  There are plenty of reasons to yell, and it doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: Memories - IN PROCESSING - the very beginning of enc
 


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