Questioning Blue Berets Qualification Methods...?

[Eclipse]

Again, you did not read my posting.

The Participation Letter does state he completed the certification.

Flyer

OK, but how is that supposed to "work"?  A wing ESO can't just go in and check the "completed" box.

The tasks and mission(s) have to be validated by an SET.

[Storm Chaser]

Again, you did not read my posting.

The Participation Letter does state he completed the certification.

Flyer

I did read your post. I'm telling you that the letter is not enough. NESA gives out participation letters too, but they also enter all tasks in Ops Quals. And from what I read on a previous post, NBB does the same; they just didn't do it for your cadet.

NBB was supposed to enter these tasks in eServices, but apparently that did not happen. It's not your wing's job to fix this. You need to contact NBB. They should be able to take care of your cadet.

[a2capt]

At the bottom of the paper given, it says:

"Anyone with questions concerning the training conducted at National Blue Beret 2013 should contact the '13 NBB/ES/Comm Director, Col. Tim Hansen, ... @ .. net . "

If you have the letter, you've got the email address. Just ask. I'm sure the CAPID of the evaluator can be provided so that those tasks can be entered.

[JeffDG]

Again, you did not read my posting.

The Participation Letter does state he completed the certification.

Flyer

That's all well and good, but you cannot even enter it without the CAPID of an evaluator for the SQTR.

The qualification isn't done until the paperwork is done.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Jeff-

We did enter the quals. We used NBB/CC CAPID on the online SQTR.

Then the quals went to Group. Validated.

Then the quals went to Wing.

NOT validated, cannot do all stuff in one day. Disregarding the Participation Letter.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Jeff-

We did enter the quals. We used NBB/CC CAPID on the online SQTR.

Then the quals went to Group. Validated approved.

Then the quals went to Wing.

NOT validated approved, cannot do all stuff in one day. Disregarding the Participation Letter.

Flyer

Only for clarity's sake, tasks are "validated" by the respective SET, the full qualifications are "approved" (or not).

As for the bolded, that's just silly or someone being obstinate, and should be cleared up with a phone call in less time than this thread,
especially now that it appears everyone involved is aware publicly.

No one but the SET of record should validate or not validate a task entered in their name, and a Wing ESO should be inclined towards approval
and only when there is a demonstrable issue should he disapproved things.   When things are "gray", I usually check in the background
instead of disapproving if only because when it's a simple fix, then there's no need to send it back through the loop.

As to dates, I don't like to see single-date sign-offs, either, but they happen all the time, not just at NCSAs and NESA.

[greatdane1945]

As mentioned in my previous post and at the bottom of the letter sent home with the NBB participants...Problems?  Send e-mail to address at bottom of ES participant letter and/or to nbb.es.2013@gmail.com with cadet's ID number so that his ES training records can be up-dated.  Willing to help but need specifics.

Thanks.

[Johnny Yuma]

Jeff-

We did enter the quals. We used NBB/CC CAPID on the online SQTR.

Then the quals went to Group. Validated approved.

Then the quals went to Wing.

NOT validated approved, cannot do all stuff in one day. Disregarding the Participation Letter.

Flyer

Only for clarity's sake, tasks are "validated" by the respective SET, the full qualifications are "approved" (or not).

As for the bolded, that's just silly or someone being obstinate, and should be cleared up with a phone call in less time than this thread,
especially now that it appears everyone involved is aware publicly.

No one but the SET of record should validate or not validate a task entered in their name, and a Wing ESO should be inclined towards approval
and only when there is a demonstrable issue should he disapproved things.   When things are "gray", I usually check in the background
instead of disapproving if only because when it's a simple fix, then there's no need to send it back through the loop.

As to dates, I don't like to see single-date sign-offs, either, but they happen all the time, not just at NCSAs and NESA.

So the real problem is not the training that was doen, but the fact that all of the training was entered into WMIRS all at the same time.

Someone on your Wing staff needs their anal retentive breaker reset. Your squadron CC needs to take this directly to the CS or the Wing King for handling. This is about as idiiotic a reason for denying someone a 101 as I've seen.

[JeffDG]

So the real problem is not the training that was doen, but the fact that all of the training was entered into WMIRS all at the same time.

Someone on your Wing staff needs their anal retentive breaker reset. Your squadron CC needs to take this directly to the CS or the Wing King for handling. This is about as idiiotic a reason for denying someone a 101 as I've seen.

OK, I'm a Wing ES Training Officer...let me step you through my thinking....I've not received one of these to look at, but for some quals, yes I've denied for multiple mission participations on the same day.

GT/UDF/MS/MO/MP...no problem, you can have multiple mission participations in a single day.  For aircrew, I can even go into WMIRS and see if you flew a sortie, but for the most part, I'm happy to take the validation of your supervisor for that.

Staff and mission base quals are a bit different.  As a standard in my Wing, we tend to operate on a 24-hour operational period...It just seems that that's the number everyone uses.  That said, with a 24 hour op-period, it is not physically possible to complete multiple mission participation credits for a qual on the same day.

These sorties must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a given mission or day.

I've seen SQTRs come in with multiple "Participation" entries for MSA for the same day...with a 24 hour operating period, that's just not feasible.  Now you could do MRO and MSA on the same day quite easily, and that' won't raise a red-flag for me...but if NBB reports everything on a single day, that's going to raise questions that just don't need to be raised.  The NBB folks may find it more convenient, but for the approvers, it's instantly less convenient.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I can understand SETs denying multiple participation in one day. What I cannot understand is that there is written documentation on how the achievements were attained. On where he participated. And he still came with what he alleged.

Anyway, the issue was solved as just when my squadron commander was about to call him, apparently Blue Beret commander entered the qualifications, verified them, and approved. My cadet's record shows all three to be active. This was last Friday. I do not know how it happened, maybe he was a little behind, maybe he read the problem in this board, or maybe the cadet himself contacted him. I am not going to worry or try to find out how it was solved, just that it appears to have been solved.

And for next year I will take a good hard look at how I dealt with this situation.

Thanks to all who offered suggestions. I hope in the near future I will be able to offer advice as well...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

So the real problem is not the training that was doen, but the fact that all of the training was entered into WMIRS all at the same time.

Someone on your Wing staff needs their anal retentive breaker reset. Your squadron CC needs to take this directly to the CS or the Wing King for handling. This is about as idiiotic a reason for denying someone a 101 as I've seen.

OK, I'm a Wing ES Training Officer...let me step you through my thinking....I've not received one of these to look at, but for some quals, yes I've denied for multiple mission participations on the same day.

GT/UDF/MS/MO/MP...no problem, you can have multiple mission participations in a single day.  For aircrew, I can even go into WMIRS and see if you flew a sortie, but for the most part, I'm happy to take the validation of your supervisor for that.

Staff and mission base quals are a bit different.  As a standard in my Wing, we tend to operate on a 24-hour operational period...It just seems that that's the number everyone uses.  That said, with a 24 hour op-period, it is not physically possible to complete multiple mission participation credits for a qual on the same day.

These sorties must be complete sorties and/or operating periods where the member participates in all aspects of their assigned mission specialty. It is possible to participate in more than one specialty on a given mission or day.

I've seen SQTRs come in with multiple "Participation" entries for MSA for the same day...with a 24 hour operating period, that's just not feasible.  Now you could do MRO and MSA on the same day quite easily, and that' won't raise a red-flag for me...but if NBB reports everything on a single day, that's going to raise questions that just don't need to be raised.  The NBB folks may find it more convenient, but for the approvers, it's instantly less convenient.

24 hour OP period for staff?  Why wouldn't it be 8 hours?

39-3 says it should be 8 hours per sortie, no more then two in a 24 hour period for the SAR ribbon, which seems reasonable across the board.

Every mission I've ever worked had a 4-8 hour OP and that's how the plans were written, I don't think I've ever seen a 24-hour one unless
there's nothing scheduled during a long mission, etc.  It's pretty common in my wing to work as say a BD for part of the day and then go into
Planning or "other".

[Luis R. Ramos]

The last two SAREX my wing did, they had a mission run from Friday into Sunday. Some mission bases closed for the night. But Wing divided the days and nights into operational periods of 8 hours each.

Flyer