Ranks: Why Have Them?

[Private Investigator]

Just thought I'd throw this out there- maybe some of the reasoning is external to CAP?

For example, in an incidient command situation or when interacting with public service agencies (police, USAF, emergency services, etc), many have an understanding of the US rank systems and/or use modified versions for themselves. They can immediately see a CAP Captain and have a rough idea of the level of responsibility and experience of the individual. It's not perfect, but it's an immediately visible symbol they can relate to.

That also lends credit to why CAP grade is granted for previous military experience (still have that base level of responsibility and management experience) and is not necessarily tied to our own positions internal to our squadrons.

Not sure if I'm on the right track as I only have a year in CAP myself, but it seemed like a moderately defensible position of why CAP grade can be important.

Well from my recent experiences when State EMA requested CAP to be present in their Command Center we were told to wear the CAP polo shirt and only two members per shift, no Cadets please. So that is how it went down.   

[Private Investigator]

There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

Every agency should have it's own culture. Too many are wannabe LAPD or NYPD, IMHO. One officer department and they look like Patton!   

[Eclipse]

Well from my recent experiences when State EMA requested CAP to be present in their Command Center we were told to wear the CAP polo shirt and only two members per shift, no Cadets please. So that is how it went down.

I would hazard it's as much because every other agency these days wear a knit golf shirt, and I would agree that, in most cases, cadets have no business in an ICP
that isn't ours, for one thing, most won't have the Agency Liaison or IC rating that anyone there from CAP should have.

[Shuman 14]

One thing I'd like to point out about USCGAux Office Insignia, when augmenting an actual USCG activity, they all come off and everyone wears a Member Device on the collar or blank shoulder boards.

We also have elected and appointed offices, so as some pointed out above a businessman who joins and is appointed a finance officer would get appropriate office insignia for the level served (i.e. Flotilla [Ensign's bar] vs District [Commander's cluster], etc.).

"Rank" in the USCGAux truly is just a job title it is not used to show progression in the organization at all.
 

[Eclipse]

Electing commanders.  There's a good idea.

Knowing a lot of the local players in the CGAux, and knowing further that we share many members, I find it infinity amusing how the
CGAux is characterized as this utopia of common spirit and society where all members work towards a common goal with no disagreements,
they elect leaders of consensus, and their parent service is never anything by royally pleased.

The only way this is even remotely possible is if the leash provided is significantly shorter then in CAP (which we know it is), and
the autonomy is nearly nonexistent.  Which is fine, if that's the deal, but also further underlines that the two organizations
share little but the term "auxiliary".

Also, I know some of the players and situations, again locally, who cause just as much trouble in a boat as they do in a plane, and a number
who could not "work and play well" with CAP, fled to the CGAux, and burned that bridge in a hurry, too.

[lordmonar]

Electing commanders.  There's a good idea.

Please tell me you got your sarcasm tags up.!

[Eclipse]

Electing commanders.  There's a good idea.

Please tell me you got your sarcasm tags up.!

Yes, and a half - sorry, hit post too fast.

[SARDOC]

I stand by the notion that Rank or Grade Insignia means things to different cultures.  While, in dealing with outside agencies you may just never get people to understand that everyone (Barring Noted exceptions) is an officer wearing Officer insignia.  It leads to credibility issues because here you are wearing a uniform with symbols of authority that don't really mean anything in the context of what is traditionally associated with that grade/rank insignia.

It's like the game show "Whose Line is it Anyway"  All of the scenarios are made up and the points don't mean anything.

We might as well be an autonomous collective where we all take turns wielding supreme executive power.   

[UH60guy]

There's no rank in ES, it's position. Matters not if the AOBD is Lt. Col., and the IC is 1LT. Which is the gist of all these replies.

And it's why I challenged the statement that rank helps us out when dealing with inter-agency incidents.  At best, it's neutral, and at worst, it muddies our actual command structure in the eyes of other agencies.

True, I will grant you that it can confuse people in that regards.

I'm not sure if I came across that way, but my meaning was not that rank gives us any authority at a command center or in similar situations (and especially not over any other agency)- as you mention ICS is structured in a way that the most appropriate person for the job ends up in that role, regardless of rank or lack thereof.

My meaning was that rank gives us a generalized idea of the background of the individual. It's definitely far from perfect and doesn't work in every conceivable scenario- but in general, if I report to a command post and see a police officer with an eagle on his collar, I may not know what Podunk City PD calls that rank, but I can generalize that he's had a certain amount of training in his job, likely knows his way around managing a staff, and if he's not one of the top dogs here, he would know where to point me.

It may explain some of why CAP keeps its Levels and Grades separate but tied together, and lets you keep your military rank up to Lieutenant Colonel- For example, I've only been in CAP a year, but I kept my Army rank. I am only Level 2 in CAP, but the military schooling and experience sort of match up with the expectations of a field grade officer in an unfamiliar agency. Someone can generalize that a I have a certain amount of training in my job (in CAP in this example that may be incorrect), or that I've had some sort of staff or management experience (true), and some sort of schooling for that grade (Army advanced course, not CLC, but schooling nonetheless). It's not perfect, but it's enough to give someone an idea.

And believe me, I'm just fishing for reasons here- I've asked myself recently why Senior Members have grades. If Tech/Senior/Master ratings and schooling are tied to promotions, and promotions don't grant any pay, authority, or automatically increase responsibility, why are they linked? It seems a little much to get a new badge AND a ribbon AND a promotion for almost the same work. The only other big reason I can think of is the Cadet programs, where they should get used to military rank and structure and respect for those senior.

But JeffDG is right- CAP is unique in the fact as a volunteer organization in which grade is not tied to position or authority can also lend to confusion. People may expect a clear cut chain of command based on what's on the collar, but it rarely lines up. One of the funniest (and saddest) things I've seen was a senior member get into a shouting match with another senior member when he tried to pull rank and it didn't work as expected.

[JeffDG]

We might as well be an autonomous collective where we all take turns wielding supreme executive power.   

Strange women, lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

We might as well be an autonomous collective where we all take turns wielding supreme executive power.   

Strange women, lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

[Al Sayre]

You can come across the same conditions in the military, especially in the Navy where you have line officers and support branch officers.  You may find a Commander (O-5) chaplain, doctor, nurse, or JAG Officer assigned under a Lt Commander (O-4) who is the Captain of a ship.  The only way to tell the difference is when they are wearing their dress uniforms the sleeve insignia are different.  If they are wearing khakis or working whites, the collar grade is the same as ours.  The support branch people are specialists just like our comms guys, chaplains, etc., but the Line Officer (read Ops Guy/IC) is in command.  It's only a problem for those who make it a problem .  If someone asks why Lt Col Donuteater isn't in charge, the simple answer is "he's a x specialist"; Capt Blowhard is the Incident Commander.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You forgot Major Coffeedrinker... He is Lt Col Donuteater buddy...

:clap:

Flyer

[JeffDG]

Capt Blowhard...I like that one!

[UH60guy]

You forgot Major Coffeedrinker...

Hey! I resemble that remark.

[SarDragon]

You can come across the same conditions in the military, especially in the Navy where you have line officers and support branch officers.  You may find a Commander (O-5) chaplain, doctor, nurse, or JAG Officer assigned under a Lt Commander (O-4) who is the Captain of a ship.  The only way to tell the difference is when they are wearing their dress uniforms the sleeve insignia are different.  If they are wearing khakis or working whites, the collar grade is the same as ours.  The support branch people are specialists just like our comms guys, chaplains, etc., but the Line Officer (read Ops Guy/IC) is in command.  It's only a problem for those who make it a problem .  If someone asks why Lt Col Donuteater isn't in charge, the simple answer is "he's a x specialist"; Capt Blowhard is the Incident Commander.

Almost. The Line officers wear rank on both collars. The Staff Corps officers wear rank on the (wearer's) right collar, and their staff insignia on the left collar. If you look closely enough, you can tell the difference between Line and Staff Corps on almost any uniform combination.

[Private Investigator]

You forgot Major Coffeedrinker... He is Lt Col Donuteater buddy...

:clap:

Flyer

Oh that is rich, no pun intended   :clap:

[RiverAux]

I think the answer to the question might be found in how CAP used ranks back at its very beginnings.  I think its obvious that they were just parroting the parent service, but HOW were they implementing it?  I don't know.  Were they using some early form of today's PD and time-in-grade system?  What was the basis for promotion?  Was there more of a linkage between grade and authority then than there is today? 

I will say that the "problems" of CAP rank are actually quite small:
1.  The apocryphal CAP member who tries to pull rank on someone in the actual military.  Often talked about, but extremely rare in real life -- I've got some personal knowledge of it happening once in 15 years. 
2.  A new CAP member with a military background causing problems soon after joining because they think that their grade has some meaning in and of itself.  They eventually figure out that this isn't the case and either get with the program or leave. 
3.  Momentary confusion when someone unfamiliar with CAP comes in contact with a CAP member.  Again, easily fixed with no harm done.   

Now, if a decision were made to start over with CAP senior member grade, I've advocated for basing CAP rank for senior members primarily on ES qualifications.  But, even I will say that it isn't a priority.  But, if we're ever in an organizational mood to rationally examine what we're doing, thats what I would recommend, but I'm sure we can soldier on as is for quite a while without any damage being done. 

[Alaric]

I have no strong feelings one way or another on it, having been in CAP for 4 and a half years now, I know that the ranks are fairly meaningless.  I do feel it would be nice for the ranks to reflect something across the board however.  For instance here are just 3 paths to becoming a major.

1) Former service (O-4), dedicated at least a decade, probably more I don't know how long it takes to become a Major/Lt Commander.  Joined CAP and using 35-5(c) was granted his equivalent rank

2) Person with Master's degree in Accounting, becomes squadron finance officer, after getting his level 1 is appointed a Captain under 35-5(e).  One year later is eligible for appointment to Major.

3) Person joins CAP not eligible for special appointment, spends a minimum 6 months as a SM, 1 year as a 2nd Lt, 18 months as a 1st Lt, and 3 years as a Captain for a total of 6 years to become a Major.

From the CAP perspective person 3 is probably the best qualified in terms of the organization as he has worked his way up the ranks.  Persons 1 rank reflects his service to the nation, person 2s his professional acumen, but how well do they know the organization which they are now serving and which they are now wearing rank in.  When I was a DCC and asked my cadets what there biggest peeves were with Senior members (other than the inability to get the uniform right ) it was that rank didn't necessarily reflect CAP experience or knowledge

[Майор Хаткевич]

You assume folks make it to Major that easy in the first place.