Ranks: Why Have Them?

[Archer]

Let me start off by saying I had to think very for very hard and for very long to try and come up with  a way to field this question in a manner that wouldn't result in my immediate immolation. I couldn't come up with anything.

This idea was inspired by the way USCGAux organizes their membership. I don't exactly know how to feel about this in CAP parlance so I'd like to pick everyone's brains for different perspectives and facts that I didn't even think about.

So, why have military-style grade in CAP?

[Luis R. Ramos]

I wish EVERY question would be so simple to answer...

1. We are the United States Air Force Auxiliary, so we will use that example. Less "reinventing the wheel."
2. We use the AF uniform. No sense using that uniform if there are no ranks to go with those grades.

Flyer

[Ned]

Perhaps instead of explicitly inviting a flame fest, you might start by stating your views on the subject and discussing it with us.  It sounds like you have studied both the the systems used by CAP and the USCGA.  Each have their strengths and weaknesses, of course, and we have discussed them at length here on CAPTalk.

A calm, reasoned discussion is not as amusing as a flame fest.  But it would probably serve both  organizations better.

And for the record, we have had military-style grades since we were founded over 70 years ago.  Sadly, we can no longer ask LaGuardia, Curry, or Spaatz why they thought it was important to have military-style grades.  Or even if they consciously made such a decision while modeling their organization on the USAAF which was using military grades at the time.

But while using a system that includes military-style grades we have saved thousands of lives, trained and mentored over a million cadets, and provided aerospace education to America.

But we can and should examine and discuss every aspect of organization periodically.  That's the best way to continuously improve.

Thank you for your service.

[Archer]

While I've done my best to do my research I don't feel like I've had enough experience in CAP or USCGAUX to have a valuable opinion, seeing as I've been in both for less than a year.

I guess it couldn't hurt too much to share my incomplete opinion. From what I've gotten, the ranks don't really serve a purpose here. I've never experienced a time in CAP where we've needed Jonny on the spot to take charge because there was no clear CoC set in place. Like you said, we've succeeded for a long time with ranks and at this point in time it kind of seems like a "What problem are we trying to solve?" case. This question probably would have been more useful if asked during the founding of CAP as "What problem are we trying to solve by using ranks?"

Keeping that in mind, this thread is meant to be more of a philosophical-ish? discussion on the use of ranks in CAP since we're not really trying to solve a huge problem; merely asking why.

[Eclipse]

We don't have "ranks", we have grades.

Currently, the grade system is primarily used to recognize professional development within CAP, or professional skills brought to the table for CAP's advantage.

Keeping that in mind, this thread is meant to be more of a philosophical-ish?

Search is your friend.

[MIKE]

Using the USCGAUX as an example to drop grade titles doesn't hold up in my experience.  It does not fix "the problem. "

[Archer]

We don't have "ranks", we have grades.

Currently, the grade system is primarily used to recognize professional development within CAP, or professional skills brought to the table for CAP's advantage.

Keeping that in mind, this thread is meant to be more of a philosophical-ish?

Search is your friend.

Ah, see now I'm a little confused. From my understanding the term "rank" is simply grade adjusted for time. Is that incorrect?

[Eclipse]

That's the basic idea, but not a concept used in CAP, except on a rare occasion with cadets in regards
to applying for an NCSA or similar.

All equal grades are equal in CAP, and from a practical perspective, all grades are equal, since, just like the
CGAUX, all authority comes from appointment, and is unrelated to grade.

Generally, the only time there is a problem is with inexperienced members, easily corrected.

Now, that doesn't make the grade structure useless, since the one thing it does carry in CAP is an expectation of performance.  Members are expected to have program knowledge and participation at least equal to what they have on their shoulder.

Nothing speaks more loudly about a member's ability, knowledge, experience, and attitude then the first few paragraphs out of their mouth filtered through their grade insignia.

[Archer]

That's the basic idea, but not a concept used in CAP, except on a rare occasion with cadets in regards
to applying for an NCSA or similar.

All equal grades are equal in CAP, and from a practical perspective, all grades are equal, since, just like the
CGAUX, all authority comes from appointment, and is unrelated to grade.

Generally, the only time there is a problem is with inexperienced members, easily corrected.

Now, that doesn't make the grade structure useless, since the one thing it does carry in CAP is an expectation of performance.  Members are expected to have program knowledge and participation at least equal to what they have on their shoulder.

Nothing speaks more loudly about a member's ability and knowledge then the first few paragraphs out of their mouth filter through their grade insignia.

All right, so correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that grade insignia in CAP are basically fancy skill badges that go on our shoulders.

[Eclipse]

All right, so correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that grade insignia in CAP are basically fancy skill badges that go on our shoulders.

No, it's more then that.

Search is your friend, we don't need to re-discuss this again.

[hhbooker2]

Greetings & Salutations! Many adults want to have a rank and some even want to have ribbons and whatever badges they can add to their uniforms. As far as I know, no one gets paid and they not only buy their own uniforms, they also pay yearly dues and in turn donate their time and talent. Now the U.S. Air Force may recruit or commission many because they have good benefits all the way around, true? Like the C.A.P., there are people who volunteer for the Coast Guard Auxiliary, maybe a few like to wear a uniform, hold a title and be awarded ribbons now and then? Of course its my understanding the Marine Corp League has enlisted ranks for those under 18 while adults do not have rank, is that correct? Rank and ribbons are for the cadets, of course Marines are motivated beyond us mere mortals. As for myself, only the Army would accept me as I was not up to par for the Corps, but I greatly respect them just the same! In the C.A.P. I wore an Army Good Conduct Medal (ribbon) and the National Defense Service Medal (ribbon) and wore Air Force Master Sergeant chevrons, the old style with six below, not 5 below with an upward chevron. When I went back into the C.A.P. I wore mostly civilian attire and sometimes a jump suit without rank. Cannot speak for others why they are attracted to the serve? Could some be for ribbons and ranks? I do not know? Respectfully, Herbert Booker of Palm Coast, Florida

[Archer]

All right, so correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that grade insignia in CAP are basically fancy skill badges that go on our shoulders.

No, it's more then that.

Search is your friend, we don't need to re-discuss this again.

Am I not using the right search terms, because I'm not finding threads on the usefulness of grade in CAP?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Hh-

Yes we are paid commensurate to grade earned.

SM-$0.00
2nd Lt-$00.00
1st Lt-$000.00
Captain-$0,000.00...

Flyer

[Storm Chaser]

We don't have "ranks", we have grades.

I know that CAPR 35-5 doesn't mention ranks, but grades and CAPM 39-1 refers to grade insignias, not rank insignias. In the Air Force, however, 1st Lt, Capt and Maj, for example, refer to rank, while O-2, O-3 and O-4 refer to grade (pay grade to be more exact). My only guess is that CAP doesn't refer to these as ranks because in the military rank implies a degree of seniority and authority. Furthermore, there's no need to distinguish between rank and grade (in the military a grade may have more than one rank associated with it).

1. We are the United States Air Force Auxiliary, so we will use that example. Less "reinventing the wheel."
2. We use the AF uniform. No sense using that uniform if there are no ranks to go with those grades.

The Academy of Military Science (AMS), the officer training school for Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve, used rank insignias in a similar fashion as the Coast Guard Auxiliary for its officer trainees. They were based on position held; the higher the position, the higher the rank insignia. I think it's an interesting concept.

CAP uses grades and grade insignias to show professional development progression within CAP. Grade may signify experience and longevity, although that's not always the case. Is it necessary? Probably not; there are (or could be) other ways to show this progression. But rank or grade insignias have been part of CAP almost from the beginning. Unless there was a big push from the Air Force not to use them, I doubt CAP would go out of its way to change this.

[vesryn]

Hh-

Yes we are paid commensurate to grade earned.

SM-$0.00
2nd Lt-$00.00
1st Lt-$000.00
Captain-$0,000.00...

Flyer

Don't forget:

Major- 00,000.00
Lt. Col.- 000,000.00
Col- 0,000,000.00
Brig. Gen.- 00,000,000.00
Maj. Gen.- 000,000,000.00

[Eclipse]

Am I not using the right search terms, because I'm not finding threads on the usefulness of grade in CAP?

You must not be, because it's about 50% of the discussions here.

Same thing, over and over.

[Archer]

Am I not using the right search terms, because I'm not finding threads on the usefulness of grade in CAP?

You must not be, because it's about 50% of the discussions here.

Same thing, over and over.

Feed a man a fish? Link, please.

[Tim Day]

There's probably no strongly defensible reason to retain our grade structure (nor is our current structure harmful).

Philosophizing, we could easily temporarily grant senior member grade based on rank or position as it is at the Wing Command and higher level. For example:

Dept Head (Ops O, etc): 1st Lt
Deputy Commander: Capt
Squadron Commander: Maj
Group CC: Lt Col
Wing CC: Col

I'm wearing Lt Col because I was an O-5 before I retired from the Navy, I'm active in my squadron, and the approval authority agreed that I'm contributing appropriately. My CC is a 1st Lt. Would it be a bit awkward for me to wear Capt grade insignia after wearing silver oak leaves in the Navy? Yes, but not if there was an established and meaningful grade structure aligned as above, that applied to everyone and communicated the level of authority entrusted to the person wearing the insignia by the organization.

[Eclipse]

Feed a man a fish? Link, please.

http://captalk.net/index.php?action=search

[Eclipse]

Would it be a bit awkward for me to wear Capt grade insignia after wearing silver oak leaves in the Navy?

Why are they even related?

Two different, unrelated organizations.

[Tim Day]

Would it be a bit awkward for me to wear Capt grade insignia after wearing silver oak leaves in the Navy?

Why are they even related?

Two different, unrelated organizations.

I said awkward, and it would be. Not inconceivable. But your question / statement has to do with another topic, which is more-than-adequately discussed elsewhere.

[vesryn]

Well, let's look at boy scouts for a second. They have "ranks." They are not grades, but ranks. The better you do, the higher in rank you go. It's a reward system. Maybe we have ranks in Civil Air Patrol to reward Cadets and to motivate them to get higher rank so they can have greater responsibility.

[Tim Day]

Well, let's look at boy scouts for a second. They have "ranks." They are not grades, but ranks. The better you do, the higher in rank you go. It's a reward system. Maybe we have ranks in Civil Air Patrol to reward Cadets and to motivate them to get higher rank so they can have greater responsibility.

Cadet grades in the cadet program are an indication of progress through the syllabus. The cadet grade recognizes their readiness and motivation to assume greater responsibility. I don't see the grade insignia itself has a motivator or reward.

[Archer]

I would definitely agree that ranks/grades/shinies/whatever have a place in the cadet program. In cadet programs, grades have great potential as teaching tools. However, on the senior member side, we're trying to organize volunteers with mission accomplishment being priority one. PD is teaching, but I have yet to see much in PD that need grades as a teaching tool and not too many adults need shinies to motivate their volunteer progress.

Edited: grammar.

[Eclipse]

...not too many adults need shinies motivate their volunteer progress.

That's funny.

[jeders]

... not too many adults need shinies to motivate their volunteer progress.

Thanks, I needed that laugh.

[Private Investigator]

...
And for the record, we have had military-style grades since we were founded over 70 years ago.  Sadly, we can no longer ask LaGuardia, Curry, or Spaatz why they thought it was important to have military-style grades.  Or even if they consciously made such a decision while modeling their organization on the USAAF which was using military grades at the time. ...

Like usual, Ned got me thinking. Maybe the original concept was to have the highest grade the Squadron Commander and all others fall in behind him.

Fast forward 70 years, we got a 1st Lt as Squadron Commander and their staff consists of a Lt Col PAO and a Lt Col comm guy. Who would have thunk that?   

[Private Investigator]

Well, let's look at boy scouts for a second. They have "ranks." They are not grades, but ranks. The better you do, the higher in rank you go. It's a reward system. Maybe we have ranks in Civil Air Patrol to reward Cadets and to motivate them to get higher rank so they can have greater responsibility.

Well now you are comparing apples and oranges. Cadets = boy scouts.

We were talking about Senior Member ranks. I am not sure about boy scouts, scoutmaster rankings. But adult supervision in the Royal Rangers were Commander = Captain insignia and Deputy Commander = Lieutenant insignia. The Royal Rangers National Director wears three stars. Besides camping and all the other fun stuff, you can wear just a khaki shirt or you can put all the bling bling that you want to on that khaki shirt    

[JeffDG]

Hh-

Yes we are paid commensurate to grade earned.

SM-$0.00
2nd Lt-$00.00
1st Lt-$000.00
Captain-$0,000.00...

Flyer

[darnit], I've been adding zeros to the wrong side of the decimal point!

[UH60guy]

Just thought I'd throw this out there- maybe some of the reasoning is external to CAP?

For example, in an incidient command situation or when interacting with public service agencies (police, USAF, emergency services, etc), many have an understanding of the US rank systems and/or use modified versions for themselves. They can immediately see a CAP Captain and have a rough idea of the level of responsibility and experience of the individual. It's not perfect, but it's an immediately visible symbol they can relate to.

That also lends credit to why CAP grade is granted for previous military experience (still have that base level of responsibility and management experience) and is not necessarily tied to our own positions internal to our squadrons.

Not sure if I'm on the right track as I only have a year in CAP myself, but it seemed like a moderately defensible position of why CAP grade can be important.

[Luis R. Ramos]

UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

[JeffDG]

UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

Again, authority in CAP does not derive from grade, but from position.  So, we're sending mixed messages to those other agencies.

[Archer]

UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

Again, authority in CAP does not derive from grade, but from position.  So, we're sending mixed messages to those other agencies.

+1

[jeders]

UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

I always hear this one, but I've never actually seen it. So far every IC I've dealt with in CAP has been a field grade officer, most of them were Lt Col. Now I've also worked operations where the AOBD was a full Col while the IC was a Lt Col, so yes the chain can be confusing; but I've never seen the disparity in ranks that you describe.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Jeff-

If you really really saw such a thing happening, did you talk to police or anyone in authority to confirm they were confused?

Or do you think they will be confused?

Flyer

[JeffDG]

UH 60-

Dang it!

With twelve years experience I have, and I forget one of the most sensible explanations. That is correct, I have seen it happen. Not only with police but others. It does not always work but it does help.

Flyer

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

I always hear this one, but I've never actually seen it. So far every IC I've dealt with in CAP has been a field grade officer, most of them were Lt Col. Now I've also worked operations where the AOBD was a full Col while the IC was a Lt Col, so yes the chain can be confusing; but I've never seen the disparity in ranks that you describe.

I did exercises as a trainee IC as a 1st Lt (finished shortly before Capt), had multiple field-grade officers on my staff.  Had an IC1 here with Captain's bars on (he's since moved up to Maj)

[JeffDG]

Jeff-

If you really really saw such a thing happening, did you talk to police or anyone in authority to confirm they were confused?

Or do you think they will be confused?

Flyer

OK, so we have rank so that the police et al can see our level of authority, and that requires no evidence and is self-evident.  But when we, commonly, have those senior in grade reporting to those junior in grade in the ICS environment, that's requires evidence to establish.  Sorry, I never said that they were confused, but if you accept as a given that outside agencies use our grade to establish our authority, then the fact that grade has nothing to do with authority necessarily confuses those outside agencies.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm sure people freak out when they see this:



I mean, holy hell, a FOUR STAR POLICE OFFICER!?!?>!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!11111 How big is his department?

[JeffDG]

I'm sure people freak out when they see this:



I mean, holy hell, a FOUR STAR POLICE OFFICER!?!?>!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!11111 How big is his department?

At least 16...

[Luis R. Ramos]

Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer

[Eclipse]

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

Again, authority in CAP does not derive from grade, but from position.  So, we're sending mixed messages to those other agencies.

The IC says "Launch these planes now...Sir..." but the IC is still in charge.

Other agencies don't care what you are wearing, you tell them who is in charge and they never think about it again.
(Unless you embarrass yourself by arguing about who is in charge.)

[Luis R. Ramos]

And what if the CAP IC there happens to be a 1st Lt or Captain, and the AOBD is a Lt Col?

The IC says "Lunch these planes no...Sir..." but the IC is still in charge.

And the AOBD would reply "With mayo or ketchup?"

Sorry, could not resist...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

^ Quick on the draw!

[SamFranklin]

What function does a formal system of grade serve?

1)  It can identify individuals who have special training and experience so that they might be asked to serve in positions of responsibility, especially jobs outside the hometown unit where they are not well known. In a million-man army, grade provides a quick shortcut in making personnel decisions.  Hey, we need a new wing commander, give me a list of the 0-6's.

2)  Rank and grade provides a clear sense of authority. That's important in a combat situation in the event of the superior's death. Rank tells you who will take over. In the most dire situations, persuasive leadership can't be used, "Take that hill, please," so rank is a symbol of legal authority to issue commands that, if not obeyed, are subject to legal sanction. The worst Wal-Mart will do is fire you; the DoD can imprison and execute you, literally.

3.)  Grade provided a bridge between civil society's social order and the military organization. Military grade echoed the aristocracy's own rank structure as the nobility would automatically hold officer grade and the great unwashed would not. It wasn't until the prussians professionalized military service in the early late 18th century that grade became an important and formal instiutional feature and the highest grades became open to all, in theory (save for women and gays and Jews, but that's another matter).


I'll stipulate that rank is useful in a military environment, though in some other thread it's worth asking if the 18th century system is still appropriate in the 21st century. The question CAP should ask is if rank is useful in a volunteer, non-combat organization. Some perspectives:

(1)  We've never been able to create a grade system that truly reflects capabilities. A CFO of a big company enters CAP as a SM. How does the system identify him as a candidate to fulfill the Wing's need for a finance officer? It doesn't. The grade system too often gets in the way of bringing the best people to the top.

(2)  While the military sometimes has upside down rank situations, it's a rarity. In CAP, it's commonplace. I'm a long-time member who has served in 6 or 8 squadrons and in only one of them was the highest ranking member the squadron commander. Grade gets in the way a lot. Just ask any captain who is supposedly in "command" of the lieutenant colonels in his unit. Look at our own Ned here, a BoG member and Lt Col providing direction and oversight to a Maj Gen. No wonder the BoG members wear business suits at their meetings.

(3)  Former cadets, as they transition to senior status, often remark that they're surprised by how minor a role grade plays in senior-to-senior interactions. Grade is more real in the cadet setting than the adult setting. For CAP senior members, personal power, technical expertise, and personal reputation matter a lot more than actual grade. In a lot of organizations, wing and higher levels especially, there are really only two ranks -- The Commander and Everyone Else. 

4)  Note that when Department of Homeland Security created the Citizen Corps and VIPS and other volunteer groups with auxiliary-type missions similar to CAP's, they did not choose to create a grade system. Put another way, given a blank piece of paper in c. 2003, DHS went another way than what CAP has used. Interesting.


I'd like to see CAP abandon the military-style grade structure. It'l never happen though, even if everyone were to buy-in to my argument, for the simple reason that no one wants to take away a perk from a volunteer, and that's okay, too. We muddle along. Secondary features of our organization -- uniforms and rank and logos -- have only a modest impact upon the primary feature of CAP -- the missions we perform and the good we do for America.


-sf

[Майор Хаткевич]

Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer

Point being, his "grade" doesn't reflect the common understanding of what it stands for.

[Luis R. Ramos]

The last SAREX I attended, one day the IC was a Major, the AOBD was a Captain, and some of the pilots were Lt Cols. Were there any arguments? Not that I saw. This happens all the time. It is who is in charge.

Flyer

[Luis R. Ramos]

USA-

Not really. I understand the more "bling" he has in his collar, the more authority in his department he has. But why should I let that freak me out?

Flyer

[Luis R. Ramos]

One thing that would freak me out is seeing that 5-star doing the job of a police officer, but not coordinating or knowing what he is doing.

Case in point. At the Brooklyn side of the Manhattan Bridge, where the traffic heading south takes the Flatbush Ave. Extension then crosses Tillary Street. A major, major, major crossing, three lanes each direction crossing another three-lanes-each-direction avenue, handled by traffic lights. During rush hours supplemented by three to four traffic cops. Always coordinating, always looking out for each other and pedestrians.

Contrast that to the day I was at the Tunnel to Towers Marathon this year. One street, one lane each direction in front of a mall where runners congregated, were registered, then walked to the starting lane several blocks away. At this place another street one lane each direction formed a "T." No traffic light, only a stop sign. That day two police officers would stop traffic or pedestrians as required to let traffic or pedestrians cross. They worked fine. At some point, a Sergeant took over one of the officers part of the day. The policeman on one side would tell cars to proceed, the Sgt would tell pedestrians to cross. Or one would allow cars on the top of the "T" to proceed and the other to allow cars on the bottom of the "T" to go ahead. No accidents happened, but that really, really freaked me out. A three-stripe not coordinating with a lower-rank. In what is a minor intersection albeit on a marathon day. It is very easy to do. Just look what the other is doing or allowing!

Flyer

[Archer]

Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer

Point being, his "grade" doesn't reflect the common understanding of what it stands for.

But it does. 4 stars commonly mean top dog. A chief of police is the top dog. Chiefs have a whole lot of power just like most people whose collars look like constellations.

[lordmonar]

Why would that freak me out? It does not matter if he has 5 stars, no stars, 5 grenades, or 10 handcuffs on his collar. If he needs to do the job of a police officer, so be it!

What would freak me out is whether he has to intervene with me because he thinks I may be breaking the Law!

Flyer

Point being, his "grade" doesn't reflect the common understanding of what it stands for.

NO....the point being....YOU don't understand what HIS grade insignia stand for.  You only assume that YOUR understanding is the "Common" one and the only one that counts.

[Майор Хаткевич]

There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

[lordmonar]

There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

And?

As Flier pointed out......from our point of view....the only important part of his uniform is the part that says "COP" and that he is on duty.

It is not important if a basic probationary patrolman last class has seven stars, 2 galaxies and a twelve pointed riot baton on his collar.....not from our point of view as ordinary citizens.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So why would anyone care what a CAP member at a mission base wears? Ask who is in charge, meet, move on.

[lordmonar]

So why would anyone care what a CAP member at a mission base wears? Ask who is in charge, meet, move on.

You are right.....That's why I have not been in this current round of "why do we have rank" argument.

We got them because we do.   They mean next to nothing to anyone except us.  This guy is in charge.....move on.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's all I was driving at.

[lordmonar]

That's all I was driving at.

Sorry....I thought you were making fun of some random police chief because his department uses five stars.

[Archer]

There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

His badge...says "CHIEF"...

[a2capt]

There's no rank in ES, it's position. Matters not if the AOBD is Lt. Col., and the IC is 1LT. Which is the gist of all these replies.

[JeffDG]

There's no rank in ES, it's position. Matters not if the AOBD is Lt. Col., and the IC is 1LT. Which is the gist of all these replies.

And it's why I challenged the statement that rank helps us out when dealing with inter-agency incidents.  At best, it's neutral, and at worst, it muddies our actual command structure in the eyes of other agencies.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Assuming they care/know the ranks.

[Private Investigator]

Just thought I'd throw this out there- maybe some of the reasoning is external to CAP?

For example, in an incidient command situation or when interacting with public service agencies (police, USAF, emergency services, etc), many have an understanding of the US rank systems and/or use modified versions for themselves. They can immediately see a CAP Captain and have a rough idea of the level of responsibility and experience of the individual. It's not perfect, but it's an immediately visible symbol they can relate to.

That also lends credit to why CAP grade is granted for previous military experience (still have that base level of responsibility and management experience) and is not necessarily tied to our own positions internal to our squadrons.

Not sure if I'm on the right track as I only have a year in CAP myself, but it seemed like a moderately defensible position of why CAP grade can be important.

Well from my recent experiences when State EMA requested CAP to be present in their Command Center we were told to wear the CAP polo shirt and only two members per shift, no Cadets please. So that is how it went down.   

[Private Investigator]

There are depts. Using colonel, brig gen, etc rank. Am I sure he is the chief, or is there a 4 star around somewhere? A small town may have a guy wearing 4 stars. A huge town may not wear any. Who knows? Same job(wish), different grade.

Every agency should have it's own culture. Too many are wannabe LAPD or NYPD, IMHO. One officer department and they look like Patton!   

[Eclipse]

Well from my recent experiences when State EMA requested CAP to be present in their Command Center we were told to wear the CAP polo shirt and only two members per shift, no Cadets please. So that is how it went down.

I would hazard it's as much because every other agency these days wear a knit golf shirt, and I would agree that, in most cases, cadets have no business in an ICP
that isn't ours, for one thing, most won't have the Agency Liaison or IC rating that anyone there from CAP should have.

[Shuman 14]

One thing I'd like to point out about USCGAux Office Insignia, when augmenting an actual USCG activity, they all come off and everyone wears a Member Device on the collar or blank shoulder boards.

We also have elected and appointed offices, so as some pointed out above a businessman who joins and is appointed a finance officer would get appropriate office insignia for the level served (i.e. Flotilla [Ensign's bar] vs District [Commander's cluster], etc.).

"Rank" in the USCGAux truly is just a job title it is not used to show progression in the organization at all.
 

[Eclipse]

Electing commanders.  There's a good idea.

Knowing a lot of the local players in the CGAux, and knowing further that we share many members, I find it infinity amusing how the
CGAux is characterized as this utopia of common spirit and society where all members work towards a common goal with no disagreements,
they elect leaders of consensus, and their parent service is never anything by royally pleased.

The only way this is even remotely possible is if the leash provided is significantly shorter then in CAP (which we know it is), and
the autonomy is nearly nonexistent.  Which is fine, if that's the deal, but also further underlines that the two organizations
share little but the term "auxiliary".

Also, I know some of the players and situations, again locally, who cause just as much trouble in a boat as they do in a plane, and a number
who could not "work and play well" with CAP, fled to the CGAux, and burned that bridge in a hurry, too.

[lordmonar]

Electing commanders.  There's a good idea.

Please tell me you got your sarcasm tags up.!

[Eclipse]

Electing commanders.  There's a good idea.

Please tell me you got your sarcasm tags up.!

Yes, and a half - sorry, hit post too fast.

[SARDOC]

I stand by the notion that Rank or Grade Insignia means things to different cultures.  While, in dealing with outside agencies you may just never get people to understand that everyone (Barring Noted exceptions) is an officer wearing Officer insignia.  It leads to credibility issues because here you are wearing a uniform with symbols of authority that don't really mean anything in the context of what is traditionally associated with that grade/rank insignia.

It's like the game show "Whose Line is it Anyway"  All of the scenarios are made up and the points don't mean anything.

We might as well be an autonomous collective where we all take turns wielding supreme executive power.   

[UH60guy]

There's no rank in ES, it's position. Matters not if the AOBD is Lt. Col., and the IC is 1LT. Which is the gist of all these replies.

And it's why I challenged the statement that rank helps us out when dealing with inter-agency incidents.  At best, it's neutral, and at worst, it muddies our actual command structure in the eyes of other agencies.

True, I will grant you that it can confuse people in that regards.

I'm not sure if I came across that way, but my meaning was not that rank gives us any authority at a command center or in similar situations (and especially not over any other agency)- as you mention ICS is structured in a way that the most appropriate person for the job ends up in that role, regardless of rank or lack thereof.

My meaning was that rank gives us a generalized idea of the background of the individual. It's definitely far from perfect and doesn't work in every conceivable scenario- but in general, if I report to a command post and see a police officer with an eagle on his collar, I may not know what Podunk City PD calls that rank, but I can generalize that he's had a certain amount of training in his job, likely knows his way around managing a staff, and if he's not one of the top dogs here, he would know where to point me.

It may explain some of why CAP keeps its Levels and Grades separate but tied together, and lets you keep your military rank up to Lieutenant Colonel- For example, I've only been in CAP a year, but I kept my Army rank. I am only Level 2 in CAP, but the military schooling and experience sort of match up with the expectations of a field grade officer in an unfamiliar agency. Someone can generalize that a I have a certain amount of training in my job (in CAP in this example that may be incorrect), or that I've had some sort of staff or management experience (true), and some sort of schooling for that grade (Army advanced course, not CLC, but schooling nonetheless). It's not perfect, but it's enough to give someone an idea.

And believe me, I'm just fishing for reasons here- I've asked myself recently why Senior Members have grades. If Tech/Senior/Master ratings and schooling are tied to promotions, and promotions don't grant any pay, authority, or automatically increase responsibility, why are they linked? It seems a little much to get a new badge AND a ribbon AND a promotion for almost the same work. The only other big reason I can think of is the Cadet programs, where they should get used to military rank and structure and respect for those senior.

But JeffDG is right- CAP is unique in the fact as a volunteer organization in which grade is not tied to position or authority can also lend to confusion. People may expect a clear cut chain of command based on what's on the collar, but it rarely lines up. One of the funniest (and saddest) things I've seen was a senior member get into a shouting match with another senior member when he tried to pull rank and it didn't work as expected.

[JeffDG]

We might as well be an autonomous collective where we all take turns wielding supreme executive power.   

Strange women, lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

We might as well be an autonomous collective where we all take turns wielding supreme executive power.   

Strange women, lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

[Al Sayre]

You can come across the same conditions in the military, especially in the Navy where you have line officers and support branch officers.  You may find a Commander (O-5) chaplain, doctor, nurse, or JAG Officer assigned under a Lt Commander (O-4) who is the Captain of a ship.  The only way to tell the difference is when they are wearing their dress uniforms the sleeve insignia are different.  If they are wearing khakis or working whites, the collar grade is the same as ours.  The support branch people are specialists just like our comms guys, chaplains, etc., but the Line Officer (read Ops Guy/IC) is in command.  It's only a problem for those who make it a problem .  If someone asks why Lt Col Donuteater isn't in charge, the simple answer is "he's a x specialist"; Capt Blowhard is the Incident Commander.

[Luis R. Ramos]

You forgot Major Coffeedrinker... He is Lt Col Donuteater buddy...

:clap:

Flyer

[JeffDG]

Capt Blowhard...I like that one!

[UH60guy]

You forgot Major Coffeedrinker...

Hey! I resemble that remark.

[SarDragon]

You can come across the same conditions in the military, especially in the Navy where you have line officers and support branch officers.  You may find a Commander (O-5) chaplain, doctor, nurse, or JAG Officer assigned under a Lt Commander (O-4) who is the Captain of a ship.  The only way to tell the difference is when they are wearing their dress uniforms the sleeve insignia are different.  If they are wearing khakis or working whites, the collar grade is the same as ours.  The support branch people are specialists just like our comms guys, chaplains, etc., but the Line Officer (read Ops Guy/IC) is in command.  It's only a problem for those who make it a problem .  If someone asks why Lt Col Donuteater isn't in charge, the simple answer is "he's a x specialist"; Capt Blowhard is the Incident Commander.

Almost. The Line officers wear rank on both collars. The Staff Corps officers wear rank on the (wearer's) right collar, and their staff insignia on the left collar. If you look closely enough, you can tell the difference between Line and Staff Corps on almost any uniform combination.

[Private Investigator]

You forgot Major Coffeedrinker... He is Lt Col Donuteater buddy...

:clap:

Flyer

Oh that is rich, no pun intended   :clap:

[RiverAux]

I think the answer to the question might be found in how CAP used ranks back at its very beginnings.  I think its obvious that they were just parroting the parent service, but HOW were they implementing it?  I don't know.  Were they using some early form of today's PD and time-in-grade system?  What was the basis for promotion?  Was there more of a linkage between grade and authority then than there is today? 

I will say that the "problems" of CAP rank are actually quite small:
1.  The apocryphal CAP member who tries to pull rank on someone in the actual military.  Often talked about, but extremely rare in real life -- I've got some personal knowledge of it happening once in 15 years. 
2.  A new CAP member with a military background causing problems soon after joining because they think that their grade has some meaning in and of itself.  They eventually figure out that this isn't the case and either get with the program or leave. 
3.  Momentary confusion when someone unfamiliar with CAP comes in contact with a CAP member.  Again, easily fixed with no harm done.   

Now, if a decision were made to start over with CAP senior member grade, I've advocated for basing CAP rank for senior members primarily on ES qualifications.  But, even I will say that it isn't a priority.  But, if we're ever in an organizational mood to rationally examine what we're doing, thats what I would recommend, but I'm sure we can soldier on as is for quite a while without any damage being done. 

[Alaric]

I have no strong feelings one way or another on it, having been in CAP for 4 and a half years now, I know that the ranks are fairly meaningless.  I do feel it would be nice for the ranks to reflect something across the board however.  For instance here are just 3 paths to becoming a major.

1) Former service (O-4), dedicated at least a decade, probably more I don't know how long it takes to become a Major/Lt Commander.  Joined CAP and using 35-5(c) was granted his equivalent rank

2) Person with Master's degree in Accounting, becomes squadron finance officer, after getting his level 1 is appointed a Captain under 35-5(e).  One year later is eligible for appointment to Major.

3) Person joins CAP not eligible for special appointment, spends a minimum 6 months as a SM, 1 year as a 2nd Lt, 18 months as a 1st Lt, and 3 years as a Captain for a total of 6 years to become a Major.

From the CAP perspective person 3 is probably the best qualified in terms of the organization as he has worked his way up the ranks.  Persons 1 rank reflects his service to the nation, person 2s his professional acumen, but how well do they know the organization which they are now serving and which they are now wearing rank in.  When I was a DCC and asked my cadets what there biggest peeves were with Senior members (other than the inability to get the uniform right ) it was that rank didn't necessarily reflect CAP experience or knowledge

[Майор Хаткевич]

You assume folks make it to Major that easy in the first place.

[Alaric]

You assume folks make it to Major that easy in the first place.

I'm not making any assumptions, just showing that 3 people can have vastly different amounts of CAP experience and still show the same rank.  I know people 10 - 20 years in that are Lieutenants and Captains and perfectly content, I know others that are charging through the PD program, are hugely active and want the rank that reflects it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

You assume folks make it to Major that easy in the first place.

I'm not making any assumptions, just showing that 3 people can have vastly different amounts of CAP experience and still show the same rank.  I know people 10 - 20 years in that are Lieutenants and Captains and perfectly content, I know others that are charging through the PD program, are hugely active and want the rank that reflects it.

Doesn't mean they get it, even if they want it, work for it, check the boxes, etc.

[Alaric]

You assume folks make it to Major that easy in the first place.

I'm not making any assumptions, just showing that 3 people can have vastly different amounts of CAP experience and still show the same rank.  I know people 10 - 20 years in that are Lieutenants and Captains and perfectly content, I know others that are charging through the PD program, are hugely active and want the rank that reflects it.

Doesn't mean they get it, even if they want it, work for it, check the boxes, etc.

Once again, you're missing the point I'm making, I'm not saying that everyone who tries to acheive rank will get it, I'm saying that people can have vastly different levels of experience in the same rank due to the different ways that rank can be obtained.  I have a friend who is a school teacher, he was a Captain 3 months after he joined due to his appointment as AE officer, a year later he was a major.  I received my Captaincy after only 2 years and 2 months in the organization as I have a Master's in accounting and was a finance officer, I received my Majority 14 months later.

[RiverAux]

Knowing a lot of the local players in the CGAux, and knowing further that we share many members, I find it infinity amusing how the
CGAux is characterized as this utopia of common spirit and society where all members work towards a common goal with no disagreements,
they elect leaders of consensus, and their parent service is never anything by royally pleased.

Nice straw man argument.  I don't think I've come across any Aux members on this board who have even come close to presenting such a picture.  I feel confident that every dual member on here would say that there are good things and bad things about both organizations and how they work.

If some CAP members refuse to believe that some Aux procedures actually work, when in fact they do, theres not much we can do about that. 

Regarding electing of commanders I'd say that it is infinitely better for our sort of volunteer paramilitary organization than the good old boy system that CAP uses.  Yep, there are going to be occasional problems with elections, but they are only a fraction of the routine problems faced in CAP when CAP commanders select lower-level commanders that they are either buddies with or even worse don't really know, that may not be capable of the job, that they don't supervise properly, and that are unlikely to face accountability for not doing their jobs.  While there are some politics involved at the higher level, at the flotilla and division level it is rare to even have an opposed election.  Even the the higher level politics is better in the Aux since the high level elected leaders really don't have any power that even comes close to CAP high level leaders that results in all sorts of retribution and other bad stuff. 

Regarding rank in the Aux, the system more or less works as designed.  Yep, there are the same sort of potential problems in the Aux as in CAP with military rank, but for the most part aren't a big deal.  CAP could change to the same system and it wouldn't be a big deal.  I don't think it is really any better than CAPs.  The one thing is that at least CAP has some sort of professional development system while in the Aux there isn't much at all.