Closing the CAP Heath Services Yahoo Group

[lordmonar]

True story.

A new officer moved into our on base housing neighborhood....we being a good USAF Officer Family went over to meet the new neighbors.  So this 30 something is there by himself dealing with the movers....my father asks when his family is joining him.  He responds "I'm not married".  Which surprised my father..."then how are you authorized a 3 bed room Field Grade Officer house?"......The new guy responds "well they wanted to give me a big place on "Col's Row" but that's way too big for just me".    So now my dad starts digging.

Turns out this is a FULL BIRD COL fresh from the 5 week COT.....seems he is a hot shot thoracic surgeon.  The USAF recruited him....gave him O-6 and a huge bonus and sent him out to the field to start work.

Not a typical situation......but it does happen.

[RNOfficer]

Here is another comment on the closing of the CAP Health Services Yahoo Group. This is a quote (with the author's name omitted)

I understand and agree as well.  CAP does demand skills, training and higher education of its' health services members and does not respect or acknowledge our contribution currently. The comments and discussion I have had with many CAP health service officers echo that they are discouraged, frustrated and turning to other groups to support and volunteer their expertise.

If national at CAP wants all health service officers to find other avenues to give to they will be successful over time as many of us will leave CAP.

Civil Air Patrol health services officers augment, replace and serve when needed in safety, providing counseling services, emergency services, in cadet programs, administration, aerospace eduction, drug demand reduction, command, etc.  As well as we hold all liability related to our profession while we are giving our best to Civil Air Patrol. This is a contradiction as we reduce the liability for the CAP corporation in the performance of our duties as medical, nurse, health services officers. So far, by imformation and belief,  no one making decisions about the CAP health service speciality cares to look at the our positive performance data.

If the health services speciality track is being undermined by malparctice trends in the United States; I offer that we don't bring malpractice liability to CAP. If this argument is being made it is a legal argument that I believe has unfairly tarnished us in the guise of protecting the corporation without a discussion offered to the health services members and or a review of any negative data.

We are vital to this organization and it's simply an act of bad faith to a group of professionals from an organization founded on integrity to behave toward them in this manner.

I was led to understand at NSC that Dr. Seoane was working at the national level to bring needed changes that will revive the dying health services specialty track in Civil Air Patrol.

I only hope that this is true as CAP will lose even more of it's dedicated members if it is not.
 
I own my profession, and I for one will continue in this organization as a health services officer and will work to bring needed positive changes for the survival of the health services specialty track and hope you will as well as this organization needs your expertise and professionalism.

Thank you Major Null for all your service in providing this forum.

I hope that Dr. Seaone will comment to the group on this topic while this forum is still active and rally his health service officers.

[RNOfficer]

Another response to closing the CAP Health Services Yahoo Group. This is a quote with the author's name omitted.

I understand, I am sorry to say. I have to concurr with your main statement/reason. And you are correct in stating that this group encourages members, as it does me, in staying in CAP, as it is the voice in a lonely CAP wilderness. I find that CAP demands skills, training and higher education of its' HSO members, yet  does not respect/acknowledge our voice of authority.

[Eclipse]

I understand and agree as well.  CAP does demand skills, training and higher education of its' health services members and does not respect or acknowledge our contribution currently. The comments and discussion I have had with many CAP health service officers echo that they are discouraged, frustrated and turning to other groups to support and volunteer their expertise.

Yes, to serve as an HSO, you need to meet specific educational requirements, however you can also serve as any other member, with no connection to being a medical professional, with
no specific "higher" requirements then anyone else.

If national at CAP wants all health service officers to find other avenues to give to they will be successful over time as many of us will leave CAP.

If these members wish to use their professional skills in a volunteer capacity as their primary reason for joining, then an alternative organization is probably a good choice for
all involved.  Disgruntled members with nothing to do, advanced grade, but little understanding of the organization is not good for anyone.  This is no different
then an A&P who joins expecting to work on CAP planes, etc.

Civil Air Patrol health services officers augment, replace and serve when needed in safety, providing counseling services, emergency services, in cadet programs, administration, aerospace eduction, drug demand reduction, command, etc.  As well as we hold all liability related to our profession while we are giving our best to Civil Air Patrol. This is a contradiction as we reduce the liability for the CAP corporation in the performance of our duties as medical, nurse, health services officers. So far, by imformation and belief,  no one making decisions about the CAP health service speciality cares to look at the our positive performance data.

Yes, in the same way, with less professional contribution, then pilots, CPA's, IT people, police officers, fireman, and members of the military.

How, exactly, do you "reduce the liability for CAP"?

We are vital to this organization and it's simply an act of bad faith to a group of professionals from an organization founded on integrity to behave toward them in this manner.

Bad faith?  How?  CAP has always made it very clear, recently more so, that there is little to no role for medical professionals to use their skills directly.
As well-educated, professionals, I agree you and your colleagues have important contributions to make, just not with your direct skiilset.  Wishing CAP was
"other" doesn't mean the leadship has shown bad faith just because they are not interested in the idea.

I own my profession, and I for one will continue in this organization as a health services officer and will work to bring needed positive changes for the survival of the health services specialty track and hope you will as well as this organization needs your expertise and professionalism.

More of this idea that medical professionals are some how being oppressed, which they aren't.

I asked the question earlier about what >exactly< the expectation of "change" would be, and/or what >exactly< the ground-level duties of a CAP MO or HSO should be.
There was no response.

[RNOfficer]

I asked the question earlier about what >exactly< the expectation of "change" would be, and/or what >exactly< the ground-level duties of a CAP MO or HSO should be.
There was no response.

Likely there was no response because this issue has been addressed over and over.  You could easily find the answer if you would search previous discussions. For example:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16257.msg295062#msg295062

If that and other explanation are too abstract for you, permit me to provide some examples.

I attended CLC where the lunch provided was peperoni or sausage pizza. Maybe 80% of the CAC attendees were overweight. Probably 40% were clinically obese. Serving peperoni pizza to these folks is like giving child porn to a pedophile. Of course, no HSO was consulted on what would be appropriate lunch or even what healthy alternatives could be offered. (It was pizza or nothing).

In a recent issue of The Safety Beacon, an author applauded the initiative of cadets who removed a tick by smothering the tick with sunscreen. Unfortunately, this is not an approved method of tick removal. Ticks can carry serious diseases, best known are spotted fever and Lyme disease. Smothering a tick causes it to regurgitate into the host and this regurgitation is a primary way that viruses like the above are vectored to human hosts.

There is only one approved method of removing ticks, physically, using tweezers, forceps or a tick removal tool. This removal method prevents regurgitation and the transmission of the virus.

You might think that when this error was called to the attention of The Safety Beacon editor.a retraction would be published and the correct removal technique explained. Of course this did not happen.

Recently at a meeting, a Senior member approached me with fears about having a colonoscopy. While emphasizing that only he and his doctor could decide whether a colonoscopy was appropriate, I was able to explain what the procedure is and what it's for. and how much discomfort could be expected. I was also able to explain that a  sigmoidoscopy is usually not an adequate substitute because it examines only the last portion of the colon. A  sigmoidoscopy might be given between colonoscopies but not in place of it.

People are the main resource of the CAP. Members that are unhealthy are a diminished resource. The majority of illness and death in the US are due to lifestyle choices. What an HSO could do in CAP, if taken seriously, is educate and advise on behavior patterns that lead to illnesses and eventually death. In addition an HSO can advise on common medical hazards (such as tick removal) or the mixing of medication and flying.

It's hard to decide what is worst taught in our schools but probably it is health. Many doctors do not give health education because of a lack of time. The ignorance of the American people, including CAP members, regarding health is appalling. Americans, including CAP members, are making themselves ill and dead with their unhealthy lifestyles. HSOs can educate members to healthy lifestyles and can ensure that healthy and safe choices are available at CAP activities.

[Eclipse]

Honestly, you're not doing yourself any favors - these are the same broken-record answers that are are always provided to those questions.

"Healthy diet, basic first aid, and routine medical questions."

As if members who are ignoring the rest of the world screaming at them, including their own physicians, are going to suddenly make
a healthy life choice because they were reminded pizza is bad for them.  For the record, in a lot of cases, pizza and other fast food >are<
the only choice because of time, circumstance, or budget, but regardless, it's essentially none of CAP's business since
CAP is not providing an income, health care, or any other actual support in regards to health care.  Encampments and similar
are one thing, but when you're talking about a group of adults it's wasted effort.

The issue here is that we are:

A) Not an external medical responder agency.
B) Do not provide health care, insurance, or other services to members.

So citing anecdotal evidence of the occasional "issue" or "calming of nerves of someone who can't talk to their own doctor" does
not justify the administrative overhead of an entire specialty that has no place or role within the mission.  Everything you
cited could be provided without a staff title, in the same way a pilot without a form 5 can still discuss flying an airplane,
or a good leader can have substantial input even if he's not the commander of a unit or activity.

Health Services, as well as several other specialties, are hold-overs from CAP trying to emulate the USAF's model
of staffing, the problem is the model is for a 24x7x365 career organization responsible for a service member's
life needs, and which has a fair amount of authority over life choices.

That model doesn't fit CAP which has limited contact hours and very little say over most of a member's life choices.

As I have said in the past, the type of services which would actually be a significant member benefit would be
things such as free FAA physicals and medical certificates, free annual physicals, regular checkups during
meeting nights (especially for cadets from areas with limited access to insurance or health services), etc., etc.
This is what military Medical Officers actually do, that's their primary and really only role.

Not that I think NHQ would be interested in the idea, but when I've suggested it locally to MD's who could do
it unofficially as a professional courtesy, "crickets" would have been a welcome response.

[RNOfficer]

You wanted to know what Health Services Officers can do. It's been explained to you.

[Eclipse]

You wanted to know what Health Services Officers can do. It's been explained to you.

No, I asked what HSOs could do in CAP that no one else can.

Of course nothing needs to be explained to me, the case has to be made to the leadership, and
clearly it hasn't been.

[RNOfficer]

You wanted to know what Health Services Officers can do. It's been explained to you.

No, I asked what HSOs could do in CAP that no one else can.

Health education, first aid (or first responder training), ,routine medical questions all require knowledge and skills beyond those of ordinary CAP members. Lots of CAP members have opinions about these topics but that's quite different than knowledge.

[Eclipse]

If that's it, then you've made your own case against the need for HSOs.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm a first aid/CPR instructor and not a HSO.

[CAP4117]

Health education, first aid (or first responder training), ,routine medical questions all require knowledge and skills beyond those of ordinary CAP members. Lots of CAP members have opinions about these topics but that's quite different than knowledge.

Health education? Okay, I can see that being useful, but I don't think it warrants its own specialty track. For example, I could see health education integrated into safety briefings.
First aid/responder training? As Spaceman pointed out, we already have those.
Routine medical questions? Something that should be discussed with the member's own provider, in my opinion.

Now, if we were to go all in as Eclipse suggested and have HSOs doing annual physicals, flight physicals, etc. and actually providing an approved *clinical* service, that's something I could get behind, but it would take such a drastic reorganization that I don't see it happening anytime soon what with more pressing issues upon us such as uniforms.    (See what I did there? Pressing? Uniforms? Ok, I'm done.)

What I see in this discussion is a lot of health professionals feeling frustrated and insulted that CAP isn't recognizing them and using their services. That is a legitimate concern, which is why I think we need to either make it clear to health professionals that they won't be able to use their professional skills in CAP (but are welcome to participate as skilled and valued members in other functions), or actually make HSO a meaningful position that, you know, *does* things.

The current situation of just making a portion of our membership feel marginalized isn't helping anyone.

[Spaceman3750]

I wouldn't go to a CAP HSO for physicals, even if it was free. I have my Dr, and he is paid for (mostly) by my insurance.

Not even a flight physical.

[jeders]

I wouldn't go to a CAP HSO for physicals, even if it was free. I have my Dr, and he is paid for (mostly) by my insurance.

Not even a flight physical.

I wouldn't go to a CAP HSO for anything, but I would go to a CAP Med. Officer who was qualified to give flight physicals.

[RNOfficer]

Health education, first aid (or first responder training), ,routine medical questions all require knowledge and skills beyond those of ordinary CAP members. Lots of CAP members have opinions about these topics but that's quite different than knowledge.

Health education? Okay, I can see that being useful, but I don't think it warrants its own specialty track. For example, I could see health education integrated into safety briefings.
First aid/responder training? As Spaceman pointed out, we already have those.
Routine medical questions? Something that should be discussed with the member's own provider, in my opinion.

Thank you for a reasoned response. However I disagree about how much of a priority health education is. America is in a health crisis. Education can't solve this problem on it's own but it's a necessary beginning.

First Aid: unfortunately the ARC First Aid course has become so gutted of content that it cannot be recommended any more. Apparently it had to be made easy enough so everyone could pass it and it doesn't adequately teach life-saving skills that are necessary in a real emergency. We recommend "First Responder" training as a minimum for anyone who may have to treat someone who is seriously injured.

Medical advice: You might be surprised at how many CAP members lack access to routine medical advice. Many MDs are too busy to listen to the vaguely worded problems that patients have and many members cannot afford to pay for a doctor's visit to ask a routine question. My HMO has 24 hour telephone advice from an RN but this is exceptional.

Expecting CAP to provided flight medical exams simply on no-ones radar.

[Nuke52]

...
Medical advice: You might be surprised at how many CAP members lack access to routine medical advice. Many MDs are too busy to listen to the vaguely worded problems that patients have and many members cannot afford to pay for a doctor's visit to ask a routine question. My HMO has 24 hour telephone advice from an RN but this is exceptional.

Expecting CAP to provided flight medical exams simply on no-ones radar.

I hear what you're saying, but I fail to see how providing affordable (i.e., free), routine medical advice to CAP members, in any way--let alone under today's organizational construct--, is within CAP's wheelhouse.  CAP doesn't exist to provide for the gaps in basic life needs/services for its members--except, perhaps, for their Maslowian needs for belonging, to volunteer, self esteem, etc.; it exists to organize, train, and equip those members to perform our congressionally mandated missions.

I further agree that providing free flight physicals is not on anyone's to-do list, but I can draw a clearer line from there to OT&E'ing flight crews for the mission than I can with providing financially disadvantaged Cadet Johnny from a rural area with free medical advice.

[Eclipse]

Thank you for a reasoned response. However I disagree about how much of a priority health education is. America is in a health crisis. Education can't solve this problem on it's own but it's a necessary beginning.

That is as much a political opinion as a medical one, but regardless, neither one is part of CAP's mission or role.

First Aid: unfortunately the ARC First Aid course has become so gutted of content that it cannot be recommended any more. Apparently it had to be made easy enough so everyone could pass it and it doesn't adequately teach life-saving skills that are necessary in a real emergency. We recommend "First Responder" training as a minimum for anyone who may have to treat someone who is seriously injured.

CAP is not a medical responder agency, and is not tasked with providing medical care to anyone.

Medical advice: You might be surprised at how many CAP members lack access to routine medical advice. Many MDs are too busy to listen to the vaguely worded problems that patients have and many members cannot afford to pay for a doctor's visit to ask a routine question. My HMO has 24 hour telephone advice from an RN but this is exceptional.

Irrelevent.  Not CAP's role.  Period.

Expecting CAP to provided flight medical exams simply on no-ones radar.

Right, because that's actually the real role for military MDs and other health services personnel in the USAF, where this model comes from. To actually say out loud that this idea has never been considered show's how disconnected
people advocating the Health Services Specialty in CAP are from the needs of the membership.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

[RNOfficer]

I hear what you're saying, but I fail to see how providing affordable (i.e., free), routine medical advice to CAP members, in any way--let alone under today's organizational construct--, is within CAP's wheelhouse. 

Permit me please to make it clearer what is appropriate "medical advice". This would be information or education to an individual rather than to a group. It is necessarily general because no diagnosis is made. Here's examples of real questions I've been asked (and answered)

My brother has epilepsy. After a seizure, when he lies down, should we raise his feet?

Answer: not necessary but check with brother's MD.

Should I get the shot for shingles?

Answer: The CDC recommends it for those over 50, especially if you have had chickenpox. Talk to your MD

Does water have to be warm to effectively wash hands?

Answer: No. Warm water helps but it is not necessary.

Is alcohol hand-cleaning as effective as hand washing?

Answer: Generally yes but not as effective against some viruses.

Is it possible to drink too much water while exercising?

Answer: Yes, although not very likely. It is possible to upset the balance of electrolytes by drinking too much plain water.

I was born in 1950. Should I be tested for  Hepatitis C?

Answer: Because of life-style changes, baby-boomers (born 1945-1965) are much more likely to have  Hepatitis C. Consequently the CDC recommends that all baby-boomers be tested. Discuss this with your MD.

I take glucosomine. It's expensive. Should I continue?

Answer: Most good research has not found that glucosomine works. Discuss it with your MD.

I have an enlarged prostate. Does that mean I am more likely get prostate cancer?

Answer: There does not appear to be a connection between BPH and prostate cancer. There are effective treatments for BPH,. See your MD.

Can I get the flu from the flu vaccine?

Answer: No. It is remotely possible to contract the flu from a version that is squirted up your nose. Discuss the benefits and ricks from vaccinations with your MD>

I have the flu. Should I take an anti-biotic?

Answer: No. Flu is caused by a virus. Viruses are not affected by anti-biotic because they are not "alive". If your flu persists you should see your MD. Flu can lead to bacterial diseases that may be treated with anti-biotics.

Should I stop smoking? I've smoked for many years, will it make a difference now?

Answer: Yes. Stopping smoking is the single most important thing you can do to improve your health. Even if you have been smoking a long time, stop now. There are many aids that can help you stop smoking. Speak to your MD.

I could go on for pages with the questions I've been asked. There are, of course, question that I don't know the answer to. I can direct the questioner to reliable sources. And sometimes a question can't be answered without diagnosis; in which case the questioner is directed to his/ her MD AND I can tell the member where free or low cost medical care can be obtained

[Eclipse]

Too bad you can't get that kind of information on the internet...