Closing the CAP Heath Services Yahoo Group

[RNOfficer]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAP_HEALTH_SERVICES/

After years of working for preventive medicine, health, and fitness as a Health Services
Officer in the CAP, I have come to the conclusion that the CAP is just not serious about these issues.

I don't want to mislead others by pretending that HSOs matter to the CAP and the existence of this board does that. In my opinion it is a mistake for a CAP member to invest their time in this specialty.

Health Services receives no support from CAP leadership on any level. I've never even once received an email from my Region or Wing Medical or Health Services Officer. I did hear from the National Medical Officer once (not the current one) to inquire as to my credentials but apparently my PhD in psychology and Masters in public health were not sufficient to encourage further correspondence.

[NCRblues]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAP_HEALTH_SERVICES/

I've never even once received an email from my Region or Wing Medical or Health Services Officer. I did hear from the National Medical Officer once (not the current one) to inquire as to my credentials but apparently my PhD in psychology and Masters in public health were not sufficient to encourage further correspondence.

And what email traffic do you believe is going on about medical things in CAP? Are you a squadron medical officer? If so, why do you expect region or NHQ to speak to you.

I think the vast majority of those of us on this board are well versed in duty positions above squadron level, and I can say for a significant portion of us Ned and his posts on here are the most we hear out of "NHQ"

[RNOfficer]

If you would trouble yourself to look at the referenced link and if you understand what italics are used for, you would understand that that the statements you refer to are not mine but rather those of the Yahoo Group Moderator.

[SJFedor]

If you would trouble yourself to look at the referenced link and if you understand what italics are used for, you would understand that that the statements you refer to are not mine but rather those of the Yahoo Group Moderator.

The referenced link is only helpful if you're a member of the group. Can't see any of the postings, it's members only. All we see is the front page, and a button to join the group.

Which, based on what you've told us, probably wouldn't make much sense.

It would be helpful to put a little more explanation and depth to the posting instead of just relying on italics. If you understood how to use the "quote" function on this board, you would probably understand why you're getting the response you did.

[RNOfficer]

I apologize. I thought that anyone who went to high school would understand what italics are for.  I guess not.

[cm42]

Entitled attitude and tantrum-throwing in response to perfectly valid points? Sounds like we're not missing out on anything.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Italics mean a quote in what world? "This is a quote". Tags make it a quote on a forum as well. Italics....not so much.

[Bobble]

Good golly, I hope the OP and/or the mentioned Yahoo Group Moderator aren't members of )H-278.  Those folks already have their hands full with their licensed K - 12 Substitute Teacher SM.

[Mustang]

Tags make it a quote on a forum as well. Italics....not so much.

This. Or quotation marks.  Italics impart emphasis, nothing more.

[pdjd7428]

To address some of the concerns of the "quote" I absolutely believe that the Health Services Corps needs a lot of work in the camriderie dept. In my capacity as SWR HSO, I attempted to reach out to Wing and subordinate HSO's to provide a conduit to voice suggestions/grievances. When I started this gig last year, I wasn't given a list of Wing, Group, and Squadron HSO's (there isn't one) I had to find the limited contact info on my own. Some HSO maintain contact with me (mostly in TXWG) and most don't. But I don't let that discourage me in performing my chief function at this level, which is advising the SWR CC and SWR Staff on anything Health Services related.

Only recently have I, in my 12+ months on the job, gotten an email from the CAP Chief, Health Services. I was "volunteered" into a working group on developing a Specialty Track in Health Services (I believe the merits of said specialty track can be addressed/debated in another topic). I chat pretty regularly with the Chief and the other Regional HSO's now, as opposed to a year ago when I first started.

Now, if an HSO at any level (or any wing/region) felt the need to ask me a question, voice a concern, or just want to network...I would be "stoked" to assist them, to use the contemporary vernacular.

[Eclipse]

my chief function at this level, which is advising the SWR CC and SWR Staff on anything Health Services related.

What, exactly, does this mean?

Specifically, ground level, what an HSO would actually expect to do or "advise" on, especially at the Region level.
Stay hydrated, eat right, exercise, get plenty of sleep, and don't smoke?

This question is like asking a cadet on the CAC what the expectations are - you generally get a quote from the pamphlet and then little else of consequence.  Not
because of lack of good intentions or initiative, but because being an HSO in an organization which does not provide Health Care or benefits, and specifically
prohibits its members from performing most of the duties their professional skills would allow, is the same as if we appointed "pilots", and then didn't have airplanes
and specifically prohibited those "pilots" from flying in uniform, while encouraging them to "advise commanders on matters of aviation."

I don't mean that as an insult or in a demeaning manner.  I'm honestly asking. People take jobs in CAP for a lot of reasons, and they usually have expectations
of doing "x".

What's your "x"?

[Flying Pig]

I apologize. I thought that anyone who went to high school would understand what italics are for.  I guess not.

If Im writing something by hand, how do I write in italics to quote someone? 

You came on obviously looking for sympathy for your cause and instantly start insulting people.  Good, shut it down I say.  How long were you in CAP before you figured out CAP has no medical mission whatsoever?

[Luis R. Ramos]

There are several style manuals. These direct writers on styles of writing bibliographies. One is the Modern Language Association. Another is the American Psychology Association. There are two or so more.

The MLA style stated the reason why underlining was chosen initially is because it was so much easier for printers to underline than italicize. However printer technology has evolved so much that italicizing is not that much more difficult than underlining. So in 2009 MLA changed requiring underlining and urges those at school to italicize titles of books and magazines.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/05/

Note that italicizing is for titles. I do not think it has changed the use of " " or ' ' for quoting text material.

Having said that, this only applies to one style manual and one only. Not to all style manuals, just to school reports and a few others typed according to the MLA style and not to all public media.

The poster showed an attitude that should not have been shown on this board when those of us which are not required to see, use, and teach this style every single day pointed that out.

As it has been posted by others, italicizing on this board is just one more way of bringing attention to text. Not of quoting.

Flyer

[Critical AOA]

What, we don't have M*A*S*H units?  This makes me think....
No wonder I can't find a Hot Lips Houlihan at any CAP event.
There might be a Klinger or two though.
Way too many Frank Burns types.
Far too few Colonel Potters.
The Hawkeye Pierce types (very capable at their jobs but not at being military) are frowned on by the Frank Burns types.

[Luis R. Ramos]

David-

You just made me think...

CAP is like the MASH unit you just mentioned!

There are those that are Colonel Potters - those are the ones that keep saying "The CAP is a paramilitary organization -- we have to wear the uniform so the USAF will be proud; we have to interpret the regulations, manuals, etc. as written..."

And there are those like Hawkeye - those are the ones that go "We are not the military; the regulations, manuals, etc. are outdated, they have to be interpreted, etc..."

:angel:

Cannot say I found any Hot Lips, Klingers, Frank Burns, or Radar,  though...



Flyer

[Eclipse]

The problem is, far too many members who >think< they perform like Hawkeye, when in fact they wouldn't even stand up to Frank Burns' level.

[sarmed1]

Regardless of the types of MASH personalities found in CAP....I found the yahoo group mostly useless, I got more junk email about things with minimal bearing on CAP related topics than any meaningful discussion or networking between HSO types. 

I differ with the Hawkeye vs Frank Burns analogy.  My experience has been the bigger problem is the people that are about the pretense of what and who they are because of the uniform they wear or the position they are in while losing sight of why they are really there: the people and the mission.  (ie more Frank's than Hawkeye's)

mk

[CAPAPRN]

I realize the Burns-Hawkeye debate is of high importance, but I am wondering if anyone sees any larger message in the Yahoo group closing. The group itself was helpful for networking, but not really much in the way of a forum. I think the LARGER issue here is- what is the perceived future of CAP health services, and how does this impact activities, especially encampments that are held on state land and are therefore regulated by state health departments. Major Hiles, of tri state encampment, has gone on record as saying this years is probably his last encampment (the guy has commanded the last 5 and served the last 10 or so). There really is no malpractice issue here despite what Ned says- you require 3/1 million- that's what the major health care organizations require and it only costs $120/year for nurses. So here is the $64,000 question- is there a role for HSOs in CAP, and if so, what really is it (and quite frankly Dr. Google could advise to the level the regs are asking for, so I really don't see the company line as an answer. Would be interested in hearing you r opinions- without all the hyperbole, vitrolee and italics we have become so famous for  

[Eclipse]

what is the perceived future of CAP health services,

Very little as evidenced by the release of the HSO reg.

and how does this impact activities, especially encampments that are held on state land and are therefore regulated by state health departments.

It will have little to no impact whatsoever.  I know the one I commanded for 8 years and that has run for the last 22 was in no was affected in any external
way by the presence or lack thereof of medical professionals.

You'll have to be more specific as to the state issue. If certain venues require medical professionals be on staff, then the activity will have to hire them from
outside, just as a lot of camps and similar organizations do.

Major Hiles, of tri state encampment, has gone on record as saying this years is probably his last encampment (the guy has commanded the last 5 and served the last 10 or so).

And that is related how?  As someone who did 11 in a row as key staff and 8 as the commander, I can tell you 5 years is a lot.

Our Health Safety Staff ran the gamut from EMTs to RNs to MDs to one year we just used members with First Aid training.  We had plenty of blisters tummy aches and homesickness,
a few more serious injuries that had cadets wheeled out. and one situation that required contacting the NOC and Region (yeah, that was a fun night), but probably the
biggest problem we encountered was that the more skilled or higher up the medical food chain the HSE was, the more inclined they were to try and diagnose and treat instead of following
CAP protocols, which "seems like a good idea at the time", but actually puts everyone involved at risk, one way or another.

[sarmed1]

Based on the current (and past for that matter) CAPR 160-1.  Activity HSO or medical officer or whatever title, is pretty much an advisor to the commander.  They can still do all of the things like advise the commander/staff on key health issues, hydration, etc etc.  Develop emergency plans, maps/instructions etc etc for delivery of non-911 type injuries to local hospitals/md office/urgent care/pharmacy type places. Review CAPF 31 medical issues and verify CAPF 60's (or the new forms in the future) and well pretty much anything except diagnose and treat. (less "first aid" issues)
If your activity really thinks that they need a on site treatment capability there are pretty much 3 options that I see. 1- Pay for someone to be there 2-Find a AD/NG/Res component medical person to be there on orders with medical treatment authority/protocol.  3-CAP medical guy on their own time (ie not in uniform or on the CAP "clock") providing their services free of charge

Baring some kind of issue (ie interpreted leagal issue) that shifts the thinking the other direction Corporate CAP looks to be going down the path of only advise/consult/teach for HSO's; that is the forseable future.

mk

[Critical AOA]

David-

You just made me think...

CAP is like the MASH unit you just mentioned!

There are those that are Colonel Potters - those are the ones that keep saying "The CAP is a paramilitary organization -- we have to wear the uniform so the USAF will be proud; we have to interpret the regulations, manuals, etc. as written..."

And there are those like Hawkeye - those are the ones that go "We are not the military; the regulations, manuals, etc. are outdated, they have to be interpreted, etc..."

:angel:

Cannot say I found any Hot Lips, Klingers, Frank Burns, or Radar,  though...



Flyer

Sure there are Klingers!  They are the ones wearing kilts.

[sarmed1]

There may be a fine line between a kilt and a skirt...pretty sure that is a skirt.

I have found most of those personalities in CAP, just not always in the same place at the same time.

mk

[Critical AOA]

There's a difference?

[SarDragon]

There's a difference?

Yes, there is. A kilt uses much more fabric, up to 8 or 9 yards, and there's much more overlap in the pleats.

Klinger is definitely wearing just a skirt.

[Critical AOA]

Maybe so but I wonder if he runs faster and farther in those heels than he does in running shoes or even combat boots for that matter. 

[Private Investigator]

Funny topic. The highlight being the M*A*S*H* personalities in CAP.

I am feeling that HSOs are getting picked on. Well hold on Cochise ... Do you think DDR types get love here? What about IGs, Historians or Supply Officers?

CAP has two main camps Emergency Services and Cadet Programs with Aerospace Education a distant third. That is just the way it is. Mo more, no less   

[Garibaldi]

As one of the guest characters once said, I wouldn't want a whole unit of Captain Pierces. But, sometimes doing the job above and beyond because you care enough is enough to overlook some foibles, but not all. I'm slowly coming to realize that looking good in uniform isn't enough.

[Eclipse]

...looking good in uniform isn't enough.

Nope, but it's where you start.

[Critical AOA]

...looking good in uniform isn't enough.

Nope, but it's where you start.

No, it's not.  Learning a skill that adds value to the mission is where you start.

[Eclipse]

It's really not, and that's one of CAP major failings.

You don't start in the military, school, Boy Scouts, or any job with a "major mission skill" (nor do you join an organization you know nothing about and become a leader the first day, but that's another conversation).

You start with the basics, rules, regulations, dress, culture, expectations, and then likely an aptitude assessment.  In the military this is called "BMT", in life it's 1-8th grade, etc., etc.

CAP's expectation that members can join and somehow figure things out on their own is why we have such a high 1st year churn and low overall retention.

[Critical AOA]

I totally agree with your last statement in regards to many new members having to figure things out on their own and the impact it has on retention.  This is a major issue.  And yes, you have to learn the basic rules of the organization and its expectation of its members.  Still I think selecting a way to contribute and learning a mission skill is one of the first things one must do and is far more important than wearing a uniform or worrying about military C&C. 

For many members, learning their mission skill is usually just an extension of preexisting skills.  If you are a pilot, learning the skills to be a mission pilot is real simple compared to becoming a pilot in the first place.  Taking someone with skills that can be readily utilized by giving them the little bit of extra training required so that they feel productive is perhaps the best retention tool that there is. 

[Eclipse]

For many members, learning their mission skill is usually just an extension of preexisting skills.

Which is further part of the problem - people come into CAP thinking they "know it".  "I was Chuck Yeager's CFI..."  blah, blah, and expect CAP to be just another hamburger run.

They need to learn the basics of the organization before they are of any value, and it's not fair to anyone in the equation to treat the paramilitary aspects as "optional" or "secondary".

They aren't, and if you feel they are, there are plenty of non-military organizations who can make good use of your time, but the last thing we need are more people
who think "I don't read regs, I read FARs..." is a valid response.

[Critical AOA]

Which is further part of the problem - people come into CAP thinking they "know it".  "I was Chuck Yeager's CFI..."  blah, blah, and expect CAP to be just another hamburger run.

I don't recall anyone saying that it is just another hamburger run but if you think the skills that many people bring into CAP are not as important as skills they learn in CAP, you are seriously mistaken.  I wonder how long it would take to turn a non-pilot into a mission pilot.  The skills people bring into the organization are critical.  You need a legal officer, hey let's send Joe down to take the bar exam... we don't need someone who is currently an attorney. Those big heads think they know the law.

They need to learn the basics of the organization before they are of any value, and it's not fair to anyone in the equation to treat the paramilitary aspects as "optional" or "secondary".

But they are secondary, the primary purpose is to perform the mission, not play toy soldier.  None of the paramilitary stuff is really necessary to perform SAR or ES. 

They aren't, and if you feel they are, there are plenty of non-military organizations who can make good use of your time, but the last thing we need are more people who think "I don't read regs, I read FARs..." is a valid response.

Who made that statement?  I didn't, but if I had to make a choice between following contradictory CAP regs and the FARs, I'd follow the FARs.  It is funny how some on here love to slam 39-1 for all of its faults but at the same time want to hold other regs in high esteem. 

But perhaps I will find other organizations to contribute my volunteer time to.  I would love to be part of groups that fly wounded warriors or sick kids or similar type missions.  Heck, I'd even fly a mangy dog on a rescue mission.  Probably more pleasure to be around than some folks in CAP. 

[RiverAux]

I think the fact that someone that was so dedicated to the HSO concept that they started and maintained a discussion group for it is now so incredibly disenchanted does say something important about their experience of the program in CAP [Not that starting a list-serve is very difficult, but it shows more commitment than most].

I'm a little surprised that one of the posters had trouble finding lower level HSOs.  There are pre-made reports available in eservices that can whip that sort of info right out.  May not be available to everyone, but ask the right personnel person and they're available. 

The fact that they're considering a specialty track for a position that is not really allowed to do almost anything is a little concerning. 

For what its worth -- I immediately understood that the italics were a quote.  Would have been easier if they used the board's quote function, but not everyone knows how to use all the functions here.

[Critical AOA]

For what its worth -- I immediately understood that the italics were a quote.  Would have been easier if they used the board's quote function, but not everyone knows how to use all the functions here.

As did I.  Though I do recognize it as not necessarily proper usage of italics and that quotation marks or the quote function would be better alternatives.  Yet, I feel those who quarreled about it were being a bit obtuse to say the least.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Same here, but the response was so...eh...that it had to be pointed out.

[Eclipse]

Who made that statement?  I didn't, but if I had to make a choice between following contradictory CAP regs and the FARs, I'd follow the FARs.  It is funny how some on here love to slam 39-1 for all of its faults but at the same time want to hold other regs in high esteem. 

But perhaps I will find other organizations to contribute my volunteer time to.  I would love to be part of groups that fly wounded warriors or sick kids or similar type missions.  Heck, I'd even fly a mangy dog on a rescue mission.  Probably more pleasure to be around than some folks in CAP.

No one here said it, though I've quoted it before, and it is a prevalent attitude in CAP.

When in uniform, CAP regs win, because they don't conflict, and if someone believes they do, you work it out before engine start. 

What you do for others is not CAP's concern.

[CAPAPRN]

It's really not, and that's one of CAP major failings.

You don't start in the military, school, Boy Scouts, or any job with a "major mission skill" (nor do you join an organization you know nothing about and become a leader the first day, but that's another conversation).

You start with the basics, rules, regulations, dress, culture, expectations, and then likely an aptitude assessment.  In the military this is called "BMT", in life it's 1-8th grade, etc., etc.

CAP's expectation that members can join and somehow figure things out on their own is why we have such a high 1st year churn and low overall retention.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the military DOES recruit professionals with critical mission skills. Trauma surgeons, ICU nurses, nurse anesthestetists, nuclear power majors, priests- all come in with their mission skills, and there are even special orientation classes just for them because their skills are so important. Why do you think the Air Force brings surgeons in at Major- it's not just the pay- thy do most of that with bonuses. It's because they are far more critical than a basic learning how to turn a wrench.

[Eclipse]

Yes, and then you go to "salutin' school" and most likely a number of tech schools or similar training.  If you walk into the military as a
certified physician, then the military doesn't have to send you to med school, but that doesn't mean they throw you
some ACU's and tell you to "have at it".

You are not working at a civilian hospital on Friday, and in the sandbox on Monday expected to "figure it out on your own".

[sarmed1]

Yes, and then you go to "salutin' school" and most likely a number of tech schools or similar training.  If you walk into the military as a
certified physician, then the military doesn't have to send you to med school, but that doesn't mean they throw you
some ACU's and tell you to "have at it".

You are not working at a civilian hospital on Friday, and in the sandbox on Monday expected to "figure it out on your own".

Actually its not to far off form that.  USAF COT (commissioned officer training) is 5 weeks and there is an Reserve COT, that is 13 days (for hard to recruit medical specialties)  There may be some local level "training" to get you mobility ready, but most of that is online and could be done in a day or two realistically.

So yes you could Sign on the dotted line, end up going to RCOT, come back get some just in time training and be headed of to a deployment rather quickly, ideal? No. Possible? Yes.

Worse, depending on the specialty may be more than a butter bar; When you get into certain physician specialties and time of certification, some of these people can come in as Maj or LTC.  They could show up at the "deployed" location and if medical specific be the "commander"  all with less than a month in the Air Force.

mk

[lordmonar]

True story.

A new officer moved into our on base housing neighborhood....we being a good USAF Officer Family went over to meet the new neighbors.  So this 30 something is there by himself dealing with the movers....my father asks when his family is joining him.  He responds "I'm not married".  Which surprised my father..."then how are you authorized a 3 bed room Field Grade Officer house?"......The new guy responds "well they wanted to give me a big place on "Col's Row" but that's way too big for just me".    So now my dad starts digging.

Turns out this is a FULL BIRD COL fresh from the 5 week COT.....seems he is a hot shot thoracic surgeon.  The USAF recruited him....gave him O-6 and a huge bonus and sent him out to the field to start work.

Not a typical situation......but it does happen.

[RNOfficer]

Here is another comment on the closing of the CAP Health Services Yahoo Group. This is a quote (with the author's name omitted)

I understand and agree as well.  CAP does demand skills, training and higher education of its' health services members and does not respect or acknowledge our contribution currently. The comments and discussion I have had with many CAP health service officers echo that they are discouraged, frustrated and turning to other groups to support and volunteer their expertise.

If national at CAP wants all health service officers to find other avenues to give to they will be successful over time as many of us will leave CAP.

Civil Air Patrol health services officers augment, replace and serve when needed in safety, providing counseling services, emergency services, in cadet programs, administration, aerospace eduction, drug demand reduction, command, etc.  As well as we hold all liability related to our profession while we are giving our best to Civil Air Patrol. This is a contradiction as we reduce the liability for the CAP corporation in the performance of our duties as medical, nurse, health services officers. So far, by imformation and belief,  no one making decisions about the CAP health service speciality cares to look at the our positive performance data.

If the health services speciality track is being undermined by malparctice trends in the United States; I offer that we don't bring malpractice liability to CAP. If this argument is being made it is a legal argument that I believe has unfairly tarnished us in the guise of protecting the corporation without a discussion offered to the health services members and or a review of any negative data.

We are vital to this organization and it's simply an act of bad faith to a group of professionals from an organization founded on integrity to behave toward them in this manner.

I was led to understand at NSC that Dr. Seoane was working at the national level to bring needed changes that will revive the dying health services specialty track in Civil Air Patrol.

I only hope that this is true as CAP will lose even more of it's dedicated members if it is not.
 
I own my profession, and I for one will continue in this organization as a health services officer and will work to bring needed positive changes for the survival of the health services specialty track and hope you will as well as this organization needs your expertise and professionalism.

Thank you Major Null for all your service in providing this forum.

I hope that Dr. Seaone will comment to the group on this topic while this forum is still active and rally his health service officers.

[RNOfficer]

Another response to closing the CAP Health Services Yahoo Group. This is a quote with the author's name omitted.

I understand, I am sorry to say. I have to concurr with your main statement/reason. And you are correct in stating that this group encourages members, as it does me, in staying in CAP, as it is the voice in a lonely CAP wilderness. I find that CAP demands skills, training and higher education of its' HSO members, yet  does not respect/acknowledge our voice of authority.

[Eclipse]

I understand and agree as well.  CAP does demand skills, training and higher education of its' health services members and does not respect or acknowledge our contribution currently. The comments and discussion I have had with many CAP health service officers echo that they are discouraged, frustrated and turning to other groups to support and volunteer their expertise.

Yes, to serve as an HSO, you need to meet specific educational requirements, however you can also serve as any other member, with no connection to being a medical professional, with
no specific "higher" requirements then anyone else.

If national at CAP wants all health service officers to find other avenues to give to they will be successful over time as many of us will leave CAP.

If these members wish to use their professional skills in a volunteer capacity as their primary reason for joining, then an alternative organization is probably a good choice for
all involved.  Disgruntled members with nothing to do, advanced grade, but little understanding of the organization is not good for anyone.  This is no different
then an A&P who joins expecting to work on CAP planes, etc.

Civil Air Patrol health services officers augment, replace and serve when needed in safety, providing counseling services, emergency services, in cadet programs, administration, aerospace eduction, drug demand reduction, command, etc.  As well as we hold all liability related to our profession while we are giving our best to Civil Air Patrol. This is a contradiction as we reduce the liability for the CAP corporation in the performance of our duties as medical, nurse, health services officers. So far, by imformation and belief,  no one making decisions about the CAP health service speciality cares to look at the our positive performance data.

Yes, in the same way, with less professional contribution, then pilots, CPA's, IT people, police officers, fireman, and members of the military.

How, exactly, do you "reduce the liability for CAP"?

We are vital to this organization and it's simply an act of bad faith to a group of professionals from an organization founded on integrity to behave toward them in this manner.

Bad faith?  How?  CAP has always made it very clear, recently more so, that there is little to no role for medical professionals to use their skills directly.
As well-educated, professionals, I agree you and your colleagues have important contributions to make, just not with your direct skiilset.  Wishing CAP was
"other" doesn't mean the leadship has shown bad faith just because they are not interested in the idea.

I own my profession, and I for one will continue in this organization as a health services officer and will work to bring needed positive changes for the survival of the health services specialty track and hope you will as well as this organization needs your expertise and professionalism.

More of this idea that medical professionals are some how being oppressed, which they aren't.

I asked the question earlier about what >exactly< the expectation of "change" would be, and/or what >exactly< the ground-level duties of a CAP MO or HSO should be.
There was no response.

[RNOfficer]

I asked the question earlier about what >exactly< the expectation of "change" would be, and/or what >exactly< the ground-level duties of a CAP MO or HSO should be.
There was no response.

Likely there was no response because this issue has been addressed over and over.  You could easily find the answer if you would search previous discussions. For example:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16257.msg295062#msg295062

If that and other explanation are too abstract for you, permit me to provide some examples.

I attended CLC where the lunch provided was peperoni or sausage pizza. Maybe 80% of the CAC attendees were overweight. Probably 40% were clinically obese. Serving peperoni pizza to these folks is like giving child porn to a pedophile. Of course, no HSO was consulted on what would be appropriate lunch or even what healthy alternatives could be offered. (It was pizza or nothing).

In a recent issue of The Safety Beacon, an author applauded the initiative of cadets who removed a tick by smothering the tick with sunscreen. Unfortunately, this is not an approved method of tick removal. Ticks can carry serious diseases, best known are spotted fever and Lyme disease. Smothering a tick causes it to regurgitate into the host and this regurgitation is a primary way that viruses like the above are vectored to human hosts.

There is only one approved method of removing ticks, physically, using tweezers, forceps or a tick removal tool. This removal method prevents regurgitation and the transmission of the virus.

You might think that when this error was called to the attention of The Safety Beacon editor.a retraction would be published and the correct removal technique explained. Of course this did not happen.

Recently at a meeting, a Senior member approached me with fears about having a colonoscopy. While emphasizing that only he and his doctor could decide whether a colonoscopy was appropriate, I was able to explain what the procedure is and what it's for. and how much discomfort could be expected. I was also able to explain that a  sigmoidoscopy is usually not an adequate substitute because it examines only the last portion of the colon. A  sigmoidoscopy might be given between colonoscopies but not in place of it.

People are the main resource of the CAP. Members that are unhealthy are a diminished resource. The majority of illness and death in the US are due to lifestyle choices. What an HSO could do in CAP, if taken seriously, is educate and advise on behavior patterns that lead to illnesses and eventually death. In addition an HSO can advise on common medical hazards (such as tick removal) or the mixing of medication and flying.

It's hard to decide what is worst taught in our schools but probably it is health. Many doctors do not give health education because of a lack of time. The ignorance of the American people, including CAP members, regarding health is appalling. Americans, including CAP members, are making themselves ill and dead with their unhealthy lifestyles. HSOs can educate members to healthy lifestyles and can ensure that healthy and safe choices are available at CAP activities.

[Eclipse]

Honestly, you're not doing yourself any favors - these are the same broken-record answers that are are always provided to those questions.

"Healthy diet, basic first aid, and routine medical questions."

As if members who are ignoring the rest of the world screaming at them, including their own physicians, are going to suddenly make
a healthy life choice because they were reminded pizza is bad for them.  For the record, in a lot of cases, pizza and other fast food >are<
the only choice because of time, circumstance, or budget, but regardless, it's essentially none of CAP's business since
CAP is not providing an income, health care, or any other actual support in regards to health care.  Encampments and similar
are one thing, but when you're talking about a group of adults it's wasted effort.

The issue here is that we are:

A) Not an external medical responder agency.
B) Do not provide health care, insurance, or other services to members.

So citing anecdotal evidence of the occasional "issue" or "calming of nerves of someone who can't talk to their own doctor" does
not justify the administrative overhead of an entire specialty that has no place or role within the mission.  Everything you
cited could be provided without a staff title, in the same way a pilot without a form 5 can still discuss flying an airplane,
or a good leader can have substantial input even if he's not the commander of a unit or activity.

Health Services, as well as several other specialties, are hold-overs from CAP trying to emulate the USAF's model
of staffing, the problem is the model is for a 24x7x365 career organization responsible for a service member's
life needs, and which has a fair amount of authority over life choices.

That model doesn't fit CAP which has limited contact hours and very little say over most of a member's life choices.

As I have said in the past, the type of services which would actually be a significant member benefit would be
things such as free FAA physicals and medical certificates, free annual physicals, regular checkups during
meeting nights (especially for cadets from areas with limited access to insurance or health services), etc., etc.
This is what military Medical Officers actually do, that's their primary and really only role.

Not that I think NHQ would be interested in the idea, but when I've suggested it locally to MD's who could do
it unofficially as a professional courtesy, "crickets" would have been a welcome response.

[RNOfficer]

You wanted to know what Health Services Officers can do. It's been explained to you.

[Eclipse]

You wanted to know what Health Services Officers can do. It's been explained to you.

No, I asked what HSOs could do in CAP that no one else can.

Of course nothing needs to be explained to me, the case has to be made to the leadership, and
clearly it hasn't been.

[RNOfficer]

You wanted to know what Health Services Officers can do. It's been explained to you.

No, I asked what HSOs could do in CAP that no one else can.

Health education, first aid (or first responder training), ,routine medical questions all require knowledge and skills beyond those of ordinary CAP members. Lots of CAP members have opinions about these topics but that's quite different than knowledge.

[Eclipse]

If that's it, then you've made your own case against the need for HSOs.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm a first aid/CPR instructor and not a HSO.

[CAP4117]

Health education, first aid (or first responder training), ,routine medical questions all require knowledge and skills beyond those of ordinary CAP members. Lots of CAP members have opinions about these topics but that's quite different than knowledge.

Health education? Okay, I can see that being useful, but I don't think it warrants its own specialty track. For example, I could see health education integrated into safety briefings.
First aid/responder training? As Spaceman pointed out, we already have those.
Routine medical questions? Something that should be discussed with the member's own provider, in my opinion.

Now, if we were to go all in as Eclipse suggested and have HSOs doing annual physicals, flight physicals, etc. and actually providing an approved *clinical* service, that's something I could get behind, but it would take such a drastic reorganization that I don't see it happening anytime soon what with more pressing issues upon us such as uniforms.    (See what I did there? Pressing? Uniforms? Ok, I'm done.)

What I see in this discussion is a lot of health professionals feeling frustrated and insulted that CAP isn't recognizing them and using their services. That is a legitimate concern, which is why I think we need to either make it clear to health professionals that they won't be able to use their professional skills in CAP (but are welcome to participate as skilled and valued members in other functions), or actually make HSO a meaningful position that, you know, *does* things.

The current situation of just making a portion of our membership feel marginalized isn't helping anyone.

[Spaceman3750]

I wouldn't go to a CAP HSO for physicals, even if it was free. I have my Dr, and he is paid for (mostly) by my insurance.

Not even a flight physical.

[jeders]

I wouldn't go to a CAP HSO for physicals, even if it was free. I have my Dr, and he is paid for (mostly) by my insurance.

Not even a flight physical.

I wouldn't go to a CAP HSO for anything, but I would go to a CAP Med. Officer who was qualified to give flight physicals.

[RNOfficer]

Health education, first aid (or first responder training), ,routine medical questions all require knowledge and skills beyond those of ordinary CAP members. Lots of CAP members have opinions about these topics but that's quite different than knowledge.

Health education? Okay, I can see that being useful, but I don't think it warrants its own specialty track. For example, I could see health education integrated into safety briefings.
First aid/responder training? As Spaceman pointed out, we already have those.
Routine medical questions? Something that should be discussed with the member's own provider, in my opinion.

Thank you for a reasoned response. However I disagree about how much of a priority health education is. America is in a health crisis. Education can't solve this problem on it's own but it's a necessary beginning.

First Aid: unfortunately the ARC First Aid course has become so gutted of content that it cannot be recommended any more. Apparently it had to be made easy enough so everyone could pass it and it doesn't adequately teach life-saving skills that are necessary in a real emergency. We recommend "First Responder" training as a minimum for anyone who may have to treat someone who is seriously injured.

Medical advice: You might be surprised at how many CAP members lack access to routine medical advice. Many MDs are too busy to listen to the vaguely worded problems that patients have and many members cannot afford to pay for a doctor's visit to ask a routine question. My HMO has 24 hour telephone advice from an RN but this is exceptional.

Expecting CAP to provided flight medical exams simply on no-ones radar.

[Nuke52]

...
Medical advice: You might be surprised at how many CAP members lack access to routine medical advice. Many MDs are too busy to listen to the vaguely worded problems that patients have and many members cannot afford to pay for a doctor's visit to ask a routine question. My HMO has 24 hour telephone advice from an RN but this is exceptional.

Expecting CAP to provided flight medical exams simply on no-ones radar.

I hear what you're saying, but I fail to see how providing affordable (i.e., free), routine medical advice to CAP members, in any way--let alone under today's organizational construct--, is within CAP's wheelhouse.  CAP doesn't exist to provide for the gaps in basic life needs/services for its members--except, perhaps, for their Maslowian needs for belonging, to volunteer, self esteem, etc.; it exists to organize, train, and equip those members to perform our congressionally mandated missions.

I further agree that providing free flight physicals is not on anyone's to-do list, but I can draw a clearer line from there to OT&E'ing flight crews for the mission than I can with providing financially disadvantaged Cadet Johnny from a rural area with free medical advice.

[Eclipse]

Thank you for a reasoned response. However I disagree about how much of a priority health education is. America is in a health crisis. Education can't solve this problem on it's own but it's a necessary beginning.

That is as much a political opinion as a medical one, but regardless, neither one is part of CAP's mission or role.

First Aid: unfortunately the ARC First Aid course has become so gutted of content that it cannot be recommended any more. Apparently it had to be made easy enough so everyone could pass it and it doesn't adequately teach life-saving skills that are necessary in a real emergency. We recommend "First Responder" training as a minimum for anyone who may have to treat someone who is seriously injured.

CAP is not a medical responder agency, and is not tasked with providing medical care to anyone.

Medical advice: You might be surprised at how many CAP members lack access to routine medical advice. Many MDs are too busy to listen to the vaguely worded problems that patients have and many members cannot afford to pay for a doctor's visit to ask a routine question. My HMO has 24 hour telephone advice from an RN but this is exceptional.

Irrelevent.  Not CAP's role.  Period.

Expecting CAP to provided flight medical exams simply on no-ones radar.

Right, because that's actually the real role for military MDs and other health services personnel in the USAF, where this model comes from. To actually say out loud that this idea has never been considered show's how disconnected
people advocating the Health Services Specialty in CAP are from the needs of the membership.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

[RNOfficer]

I hear what you're saying, but I fail to see how providing affordable (i.e., free), routine medical advice to CAP members, in any way--let alone under today's organizational construct--, is within CAP's wheelhouse. 

Permit me please to make it clearer what is appropriate "medical advice". This would be information or education to an individual rather than to a group. It is necessarily general because no diagnosis is made. Here's examples of real questions I've been asked (and answered)

My brother has epilepsy. After a seizure, when he lies down, should we raise his feet?

Answer: not necessary but check with brother's MD.

Should I get the shot for shingles?

Answer: The CDC recommends it for those over 50, especially if you have had chickenpox. Talk to your MD

Does water have to be warm to effectively wash hands?

Answer: No. Warm water helps but it is not necessary.

Is alcohol hand-cleaning as effective as hand washing?

Answer: Generally yes but not as effective against some viruses.

Is it possible to drink too much water while exercising?

Answer: Yes, although not very likely. It is possible to upset the balance of electrolytes by drinking too much plain water.

I was born in 1950. Should I be tested for  Hepatitis C?

Answer: Because of life-style changes, baby-boomers (born 1945-1965) are much more likely to have  Hepatitis C. Consequently the CDC recommends that all baby-boomers be tested. Discuss this with your MD.

I take glucosomine. It's expensive. Should I continue?

Answer: Most good research has not found that glucosomine works. Discuss it with your MD.

I have an enlarged prostate. Does that mean I am more likely get prostate cancer?

Answer: There does not appear to be a connection between BPH and prostate cancer. There are effective treatments for BPH,. See your MD.

Can I get the flu from the flu vaccine?

Answer: No. It is remotely possible to contract the flu from a version that is squirted up your nose. Discuss the benefits and ricks from vaccinations with your MD>

I have the flu. Should I take an anti-biotic?

Answer: No. Flu is caused by a virus. Viruses are not affected by anti-biotic because they are not "alive". If your flu persists you should see your MD. Flu can lead to bacterial diseases that may be treated with anti-biotics.

Should I stop smoking? I've smoked for many years, will it make a difference now?

Answer: Yes. Stopping smoking is the single most important thing you can do to improve your health. Even if you have been smoking a long time, stop now. There are many aids that can help you stop smoking. Speak to your MD.

I could go on for pages with the questions I've been asked. There are, of course, question that I don't know the answer to. I can direct the questioner to reliable sources. And sometimes a question can't be answered without diagnosis; in which case the questioner is directed to his/ her MD AND I can tell the member where free or low cost medical care can be obtained

[Eclipse]

Too bad you can't get that kind of information on the internet...

[RNOfficer]

Too bad you can't get that kind of information on the internet...

Much "information" on the internet is incorrect. Much of it has commercial bias. Need an example? Google "colon cleansing". Medically useless, even dangerous but if you believe the internet it's an epidemic of major proportions.

Much incorrect information on the web is generated by the proverbial guy sitting around in his underwear all day because he has no life.

There are some reliable site for information but many more unreliable ones.

[Eclipse]

I agree.  That doesn't make it CAP's place to be seen as a source for that type of information.

You are also free to provide that, at any level you like, without the mantle of a staff position or specialty track within CAP.
In fact, without that, there are no constraints on what you can provide or how you inform.

People ask me all the time about IT and motorcycle safety issues, those are my professional wheelhouse.
I am neither an ITO nor a CAP driving instructor.  They ask anyway.

Or are you saying "no pin, no info"?

[jimmydeanno]

Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

[Майор Хаткевич]

No need for a doctor. Its chicken pox.

[Critical AOA]

No need for a doctor. Its chicken pox.

Or an attack by the Giant Hogweed.

[RNOfficer]

Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

[Critical AOA]

Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

[RNOfficer]

Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

You make a valid point. It would depend on the age of the cadet and the medical issue as to whether I would inform the parents or the cadet only. Under certain circumstances, the cadet's wishes would control.

[NCRblues]

Not that I'm really entering this argument, but the advice examples you provided, most were followed by, "Check with your MD."  So, if we want to provide medical advice for our members under the pretense of them not having access to routine medical care, how are they going to check with their MD? 

"Mom, I have this really weird rash all over my body."

"We don't have insurance, check with that CAP doctor at your meeting."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

"We don't have medical insurance, my mom said to check with you."

"You should have that checked out by a doctor."

What's the point?

Your example is fundamentally different. The above provided examples were health information. The situation you describe requires diagnosis which is medical treatment.

However, if a Cadet came to me who needed medical treatment and told me that his/ her parents could not afford medical care, I could and would direct the Cadet to institutions that provide free or low cost medical care.

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

You make a valid point. It would depend on the age of the cadet and the medical issue as to whether I would inform the parents or the cadet only. Under certain circumstances, the cadet's wishes would control.

And this is exactly the gray areas that CAP must stay away from...

[RNOfficer]

So you would send the child to these providers rather than inform the parents about these facilities and let them decide?

You make a valid point. It would depend on the age of the cadet and the medical issue as to whether I would inform the parents or the cadet only. Under certain circumstances, the cadet's wishes would control.
[/quote]

And this is exactly the gray areas that CAP must stay away from...
[/quote]

If by "grey area" you mean that the decision is up to the HSO's discretion, you are mistaken.

State laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

[Eclipse]

State laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

More examples of why CAP needs to stay completely out of the health services and information area.

So now you're advocating that legal should get involved on whether or not a CAP HSO should be providing information to cadets.

Seriously, you want a poop storm that ends memberships?  Start providing information or services to cadets without their parents knowing it
and then wave some legal flag that says it's OK.

Good.

Luck.

With.

That.

[Critical AOA]

Yep.

[RNOfficer]

State laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

More examples of why CAP needs to stay completely out of the health services and information area.

So now you're advocating that legal should get involved on whether or not a CAP HSO should be providing information to cadets.

Seriously, you want a poop storm that ends memberships?  Start providing information or services to cadets without their parents knowing it
and then wave some legal flag that says it's OK.

I'll try to raise the level of discourse from your "poop" level.

Most states have laws that allow minors to receive medical treatment without their parent's consent or knowledge under very special circumstances. In my state this includes situations where the minor is the victim of family sexual abuse. State laws vary.

If a cadet alleged this, I would provide information on where he/ she could receive confidential medical treatment.  It would be my duty. If a cadet found it necessary to reveal this to me, it would be because I'm the only adult he/ she could trust, which is not unusual in cases of family sexual abuse.

Eclipse is opposed to providing this information to the victim because he's concerned that parents would object. I find this despicable.

That's the last I have to say on this topic, particularly to Eclipse.

[jeders]

State laws vary but most states provide that minors can receive certain medical treatments without the permission or knowledge of their parents.  Your unit legal officer should be aware of what the law is in your state.

More examples of why CAP needs to stay completely out of the health services and information area.

So now you're advocating that legal should get involved on whether or not a CAP HSO should be providing information to cadets.

Seriously, you want a poop storm that ends memberships?  Start providing information or services to cadets without their parents knowing it
and then wave some legal flag that says it's OK.

I'll try to raise the level of discourse from your "poop" level.

Most states have laws that allow minors to receive medical treatment without their parent's consent or knowledge under very special circumstances. In my state this includes situations where the minor is the victim of family sexual abuse. State laws vary.

If a cadet alleged this, I would provide information on where he/ she could receive confidential medical treatment.  It would be my duty. If a cadet found it necessary to reveal this to me, it would be because I'm the only adult he/ she could trust, which is not unusual in cases of family sexual abuse.

No, you wouldn't. You would report it to law enforcement and, if it involves CAP in any way to your chain of command. Period, end of story. If you want to give advice, you do it on your own time, separate from CAP.

Eclipse is opposed to providing this information to the victim because he's concerned that parents would object. I find this despicable.

That's the last I have to say on this topic, particularly to Eclipse.

No, he's not. He is a dedicated member with many years of command experience who is trying to prevent lawsuits caused by well meaning members who ignore the fact that we live in a highly litigious society.

[EMT-83]

Why would someone take on the responsibility of providing medical advice to anyone, knowing that the organization doesn't have your back? Provide basic first aid; stop the bleeding and call 911. That's the extent of medical service needed.

Sorry to add fuel to the fire, but with only a couple of exceptions, every HSO I've encountered used the position for a quick promotion and actually did nothing. That certainly doesn't help the cause.

[Storm Chaser]

If a cadet alleged [family sexual abuse], I would provide information on where he/ she could receive confidential medical treatment.  It would be my duty. If a cadet found it necessary to reveal this to me, it would be because I'm the only adult he/ she could trust, which is not unusual in cases of family sexual abuse.

Eclipse is opposed to providing this information to the victim because he's concerned that parents would object. I find this despicable.

That's the last I have to say on this topic, particularly to Eclipse.

CAPR 52-10 states that members "should immediately report incidents of observed or suspected abuse to the unit commander or commander at the next higher level of command." Furthermore, "[m]embers having knowledge of abuse must follow reporting requirements under their state's laws."

CAPR 160-1 states that "CAP is not a health care provider, and CAP members are not permitted to act in the role of health care providers during the performance of official CAP duties." The only medical care that can be provided "within CAP is limited to emergency first aid and may be provided only by members with appropriate training and experience.

It seems to me that Eclipse was just addressing the fact that what you suggest is NOT allowed within CAP as it goes beyond our mission, scope and what we're allowed to do as members.

[Nuke52]

Except in the case of a thread devolving to outright abusive language, cyber bullying, etc., I would never advocate for a thread to be locked...  Instead, I believe the most effective (and First Amendment-friendly) method to end a repetitive cranium-meet-wall situation, is to simply stop engaging or replying to the poster in question.  And I do believe that is the best course of action here.

But--holy smokes!--talk about someone Simply. Not. Getting it...

Ma'am (sir?), thank you for your continued service to the Civil Air Patrol.  Out.

[Critical AOA]

Except in the case of a thread devolving to outright abusive language, cyber bullying, etc., I would never advocate for a thread to be locked...  Instead, I believe the most effective (and First Amendment-friendly) method to end a repetitive cranium-meet-wall situation, is to simply stop engaging or replying to the poster in question.  And I do believe that is the best course of action here.

But--holy smokes!--talk about someone Simply. Not. Getting it...

Ma'am (sir?), thank you for your continued service to the Civil Air Patrol.  Out.

Yeah, I feel the same way about Eclipse too...


Oh you meant the OP.

[Eclipse]

...nice...

[mattoondennis]

I am interested in networking with health professionals. I have been an RN for 30 years, retired from the Natl Guard as an O/4 and have been a member of CAP for about a year without being assigned as an HSO. I note that there is no health services representation at the National Convention this year.I am wondering if the wealth of education and social skills of health services is not being wasted by the obsession of paramilitarism. I have served in various community organizations without much emphasis on uniform and decorations and have actually got quite a lot done. We might learn lessons from military "auxillaries" that were epic fails.

[Eclipse]

We might learn lessons from military "auxillaries" that were epic fails.

Such as?

In terms of "rampant militarism", specific examples would be nice as well, since, you know, CAP is a paramilitary organization.

Also, why would your education and "social skills" be wasted simply because you are not posted as HSO?  We have thousands
of members who join specifically >not< to do their full time job on a volunteer basis. Their education and "social skills" aren't wasted.

It's also an interesting paradigm - joining a paramilitary organisation, and then disdaining the uniform and decorations.  How does that work, exactly?

[mattoondennis]

I get the point about doing something different from someones regular job....am retired now but it was good to get out of the hospital and work as a reserve deputy or volunteer firefighter.

Wasted assets depend a lot on particular command and their abilities, priorities and interests.

It's not disdain as much as a gentle poke at self importance....being and developing thoughtful leaders without losing sight of an organization's fit in society. Einsatzgruppen might be an example albeit extreme of an aux that lost its soul.....lots of Phds leading, functionally very effective, proud.....the point is retaining an awareness of overall direction.

[FW]

I get the point about doing something different from someones regular job....am retired now but it was good to get out of the hospital and work as a reserve deputy or volunteer firefighter.

Wasted assets depend a lot on particular command and their abilities, priorities and interests.

I've been around CAP for a long time now.  I've even served as a "HSO" for a time; a very short time.  For me, it was just not rewarding.  HSO's, IMHO, augment the safety officer in fostering a safe and healthy environment for the members.  I rather do much more than that (outside of being an HSO).  I honestly think my "assets" were not wasted.  I would like to think my abilities were greatly expanded because of CAP's requests of me.

[Eclipse]

I get the point about doing something different from someones regular job....am retired now but it was good to get out of the hospital and work as a reserve deputy or volunteer firefighter.

Wasted assets depend a lot on particular command and their abilities, priorities and interests.

It's not disdain as much as a gentle poke at self importance....being and developing thoughtful leaders without losing sight of an organization's fit in society. Einsatzgruppen might be an example albeit extreme of an aux that lost its soul.....lots of Phds leading, functionally very effective, proud.....the point is retaining an awareness of overall direction.

You seriously dropped to Godwin's law on your second post on the board?

Correlation is not causation, and you might do well to choose better examples in your arguments if you want to be taken
seriously in a conversation about CAP. 

As to "wasted assets", that's on the member.  If one chooses to join CAP, and then stamps their feet and says "I won't do anything but medical care, and if CAP won't let me, then clearly they are wrong, I am right, and I'll just stand here, breath held, until I get my way..." then the only person wasting an asset is the person with the apnea, if for no other reason then their skills might be used in a different, better-suited organization.

[Private Investigator]

... I have served in various community organizations without much emphasis on uniform and decorations and have actually got quite a lot done. We might learn lessons from military "auxillaries" that were epic fails.

So this might be considered a "uniform thread" now