Clarification for Professional Appointment

[Eclipse]

How about...

"You've had 4 years to catch up, on top of however much time you had before that. You're out of uniform, Lieutenant."

Seems pretty clear to me.  Adults who can't handle an objective standard with years of notice, are likely not much value to
CAP anyway, and if they didn't value the grade they were given enough to do the work, then it shouldn't matter to them anyway.

[SARDOC]

As I see it, the problem is not so much giving them advanced rank because of their professional background or mission related skills. The problem is that, unlike the military, a physician (or lawyer, etc.) in CAP can (and often does) assume other staff and command roles. Again, that doesn't happen in the military, but it's a reality in CAP.

Military Medical Officers and Lawyers assume staff and command roles all the time.  Just not typically for a Line Unit.

[RiverAux]

When CAP has Lawyer Squadrons and Hospital units we can start following that model then. 

[SARDOC]

Touche...But They can still hold staff positions in CAP units within their professional domain though.  For Example, Wing Legal Officer is a Staff Position...

[Eclipse]

The biggest issue I've had with members who are Legal or Medical professionals is that in their professional life they tend to be
leaders and given deference, while in a CAP context, since much of what they bring to the table isn't directly useful, they don't
receive that same deference until they prove themselves with skills a unit, etc., can use.

Your central-casting Dr. / pilot may get to order first at the FBO, but he's just the "FNG" at an active flying unit, especially
one that has ex-military pilots.

The JAG club in CAP tends to be fairly closed, and getting an invite can be somewhat of a challenge, despite the rhetoric about
needing to recruit lawyers actively.

So what you (potentially) wind up with are field-grade officers with no CAP experience, nothing to do within the field they
received their bump for, and no one particularly interested in their opinion.  Not exactly a recruiting poster.

[lordmonar]

If they don't like it.....oh well.

I don't understand the "oh well" part.  There's lots of ways that can be taken.

One would assume that unit commanders and PD officers would be working with and pushing their "out of phase" officers to get with the program.    The "oh well" part is that we have to enforce standards.....if you don't want to....there's the door or you can put on your Maj/Capt/Lt's ranks as appropriate.

[Private Investigator]

We have a ACDC in our unit who was a Major in the Airforce, She refuses to but on Major Rank and wants to Go through the ranking system liek everyone else. Her reasoning is, she wants to learn how CAP does things, you cant learn that by starting from the top, you learn from starting at the bottom.

ACDC is by KISS ain't it? Have no clue what a ACDC is in CAP.

I bet six years from now she will not be in the program. I knew a retired Army Guard LTC that wanted to fly and work ES but his Unit told him he had to work up from SMWOG and then made him PAO since nobody wanted that job, etc, etc.

[Private Investigator]

Honestly, I think approving authorities should be able to waive TIG more generally for members who show initiative and take on higher levels of responsibility. 

Unfortunately, what that tends to do is give the people who "don't do anything but" a serious leg up. My experience is that they're not the most well rounded individuals.  So you have a guy who is retired and can do pretty much nothing but knock out PME left & right, and he's a Captain immediately?

Years ago, I had a gent apply for TAC officer at encampment. We had a slot come open at the last minute due to an unexpected conflict. 

It was one of those situations where everybody I would have wanted was booked, and this guy was the only person who was *available*.  (retired, etc).

Yeah, it was a complete trainwreck. I would have been better off not filling the position.

That is a training issue.

A swimming lesson should be applied before being tossed into the deep end. YMMV 

[Private Investigator]

I have always thought that advanced promotions should always come with a time limit for the individual to make up the CAP training, even for former military officers.

That would be reasonable. I have "benefited" from a special appointment as an officer of the Armed Forces, but I took it upon myself to complete all my professional development requirements. Unfortunately, not every military officer in CAP does that and the regulations don't require it. They should.

I'd support that, actually. I'm a retired Navy Commander who just promoted to Lt Col based on my military rank. It took almost a year, during which I not only made progress on level II (SLS, OBC) but served as the Deputy Commander for Cadets. SLS and OBC didn't really cover much new ground for me, but I felt like they're appropriate for baselining our CAP professional knowledge. I just finished level II and am embarking on Level III.

In my experience most former military officers were exceptional members of CAP  YMMV   

[Private Investigator]

RE: Professional Appointments, it is what it is.

In CAP PD I do not think somebody should take SLS, CLC and RSC in one year. But whatever 

[a2capt]

If someone needed those two classes, and then to do RSC, it's entirely possible in CAWG. Just call it a 12 month period from April to March, in a "catch to duty based promotion" scenario.

[capchiro]

I think you all are missing the point.  A lawyer does not normally deal with search and rescue.  He is spending his time protecting the Corporation from spending beaucoup dollars on dumb stunts done by seasoned trained leadership members and making sure leases are favorable to Corporate.  Most are not interested in spending the night in the woods or running a cadet squadron.  Over a period of time they may develop an interest in that and being professionals, they will obtain proper training prior to accepting such position.  I dare say most Wings have less than a handful of legal officers. All legal officers represent Corporate, not individual suqadrons and they are either Wing Legal officer or Assistant Wing Legal Officers, even if attached to a squadron.  Surprise, surprise..

[RiverAux]

As far as I know there are zero restrictions on CAP lawyers from taking part in any of CAP's programs.  Since there is so little for most CAP lawyers to actually do to serve CAP I suspect that most of them spend their time on other CAP programs.  Same goes for most others who receive the professional appointments. 

[Private Investigator]

I know several lawyers that were Squadron Commanders as well as other important tasks in CAP Units at all levels.

RE: Professional Appointments I think are CAP Chaplains do not get enough recognition. They all do exceptional work   :clap:

[RiverAux]

If I remember correctly CAP chaplains themselves pushed to make sure that they were part of the PD program in some way.  They understood the value of having the same training as everyone else. 

[Eclipse]

I dare say most Wings have less than a handful of legal officers. All legal officers represent Corporate, not individual suqadrons and they are either Wing Legal officer or Assistant Wing Legal Officers, even if attached to a squadron.  Surprise, surprise..

As far as I know there are zero restrictions on CAP lawyers from taking part in any of CAP's programs.  Since there is so little for most CAP lawyers to actually do to serve CAP I suspect that most of them spend their time on other CAP programs.  Same goes for most others who receive the professional appointments.

CAP may have less then a hand full of JAGs, but there's plenty of lawyers serving at all levels and functions.  The GLR/CC, for example is an accomplished lawyer,
as is our own Ned, who currently sits on the board.

[Storm Chaser]

I think you all are missing the point.  A lawyer does not normally deal with search and rescue.  He is spending his time protecting the Corporation from spending beaucoup dollars on dumb stunts done by seasoned trained leadership members and making sure leases are favorable to Corporate.  Most are not interested in spending the night in the woods or running a cadet squadron.  Over a period of time they may develop an interest in that and being professionals, they will obtain proper training prior to accepting such position.  I dare say most Wings have less than a handful of legal officers.

That may be true of wing or region legal officers, but not of lawyers in general as you're stating. Many lawyers join CAP and serve in multiple different capacities. They can receive the professional appointment and get a promotion to the corresponding rank, and still be assigned to other duties in addition to legal officer.

All legal officers represent Corporate, not individual suqadrons and they are either Wing Legal officer or Assistant Wing Legal Officers, even if attached to a squadron.  Surprise, surprise..

CAPR 20-1 allows for legal officers to be assigned to squadrons and groups as squadron or group legal officers. If you read the duty description in this regulation, you will see that a legal officer can do much more at the local level that just represent the corporation. As an example, they serve in unit membership boards, render legal opinions regarding CAP activities, assist the unit safety officer in conducting investigations, develop relationships with other local agencies, etc. Where do you get that they're always assigned as wing legal officers or assistants? That is just simply incorrect. Furthermore, they're not prohibited from being assigned to other duty positions or participating in other CAP activities, including ES.

If I remember correctly CAP chaplains themselves pushed to make sure that they were part of the PD program in some way.  They understood the value of having the same training as everyone else.

Our unit chaplain doesn't have any other duty positions in the squadron, but does participate in PD for the Chaplain Specialty Track. He also participates in ES and it's a qualified aircrew member.

EDITED FOR GRAMMAR

[capchiro]

Stormchaser, you noted, "CAPR 20-1 allows for legal officers to be assigned to squadrons and groups as squadron or group legal officers. If you read the duty description in this regulation, you will see that a legal officer can do much more at the local level that just represent the corporation. As an example, they serve in unit membership boards, render legal opinions regarding CAP activities, assist the unit safety officer in conducting investigations, develop relationships with other local agencies, etc. Where do you get that they're always assigned as wing legal officers or assistants? That is just simply incorrect. Furthermore, they're not prohibited from being assigned to other duty positions or participating in other CAP activities, including ES."

I will find the citation for you.  Although they can assist at Squadron and Group levels, they are all assigned as Assistant Wing Legal officers and their primary responsibility is representing Corporate, not Wing, not Group, nor Squadron.  A squadron commander that is in trouble with corporate will soon find that the legal officer working with his squadron will not and can not assist him.  A CAP legal officers only client is Corporate.  I, too, was surprised to find this out.  They may very well fill in other positions, but they should be aware that as long as they are legal officers, duly appointed by the Wing legal officer, their first duty is to Corporate CAP and not the local squadron..  Once they drop the legal officer status, they are free to do as they want.

CAPR-111:
3. Qualifications of Legal Officers. "Legal officer" means a CAP senior member and licensed attorney who has Civil Air Patrol as a client.

4. Duties of Legal Officers.
a. Fiduciary Duty. Civil Air Patrol is the client of each and every attorney assigned as a legal officer.

All CAP Legal Officers are appointed by Wing Commander after review by the Legal officer at Wing or a higher level if appointment is for Wing or Above.  National, region and wing legal officers shall be responsible for managing legal officers assigned to their respective headquarters and the unit legal officers of the headquarters immediately below them.  Squadron commanders do not have authority over legal officers.   

[Storm Chaser]

@ capchiro

I'm not a legal officer or expert in legal matters, so I will defer to you on that. However, I still stand by what I said about you making assumptions that "[a] lawyer does not normally deal with search and rescue." And that "[m]ost are not interested in spending the night in the woods or running a cadet squadron." That may be your opinion, but I doubt that represents the sentiment of ALL lawyers that join CAP. Unless there's a regulation that prohibits legal officers from participating in other duty positions or CAP activities (if there is, please cite), I will assume that they can and that many do.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Both capchiro and stormchaser are correct.

Think it this way. Not all the lawyers that join CAP end up appointed as Legal Officers, approved as an unit Legal Officer. In this case Storms' assumptions and allegations are correct. But for those that do end as Legal Officers, their behavior must be, as Chiro states.

However for even those Legal Officers there is nothing that prohibits them from doing what Storm states. In this case those that are appointed at Group and below, they have to remember they wear two hats. It will not be the first time, nor the last...

Flyer