Old Cadet Award

[teesquared]

We have a senior member who rejoined CAP about six months ago. When he was a Cadet a loooong time ago, he received a "Certificate of Profiency Award" as a cadet. The award is dated Dec 1958. Does anybody know what award in the current cadet lineup that would be equivalent to?

[Ned]

It is typically considered the equivalent of a Mitchell, even though at the time it was the highest cadet award.

COP holders are worthy of great respect.  Thank him for me.

[teesquared]

His squadron commander is trying to get him promoted to Captain on the theory that the COP is/was the equivalent of today's Spaatz.  Any thoughts?

[Eclipse]

The ribbon looks like this:

And would have been earned prior to 1964. It is still approved for wear as a senior's "highest cadet award".

His squadron commander is trying to get him promoted to Captain on the theory that the COP is/was the equivalent of today's Spaatz.  Any thoughts?

I think that's a pretty fair stretch.  As Ned said, it's considered equivalent to the Mitchell, which these days equals about 1/2 a Spaatz.
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1048/~/certificate-of-proficiency-(former-cadet-award)

[teesquared]

Can we promote him to half-a-captain? 

[Jaison009]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

It is typically considered the equivalent of a Mitchell, even though at the time it was the highest cadet award.

COP holders are worthy of great respect.  Thank him for me.

[Luis R. Ramos]

If you chop a captains bar you end up with one bar. Silver. A First Lieutenant. Isn't Mitchell=2nd Lt? Make him a First Lt, since it is the Squadron commander's  prerogative. Does not go higher than Squadron. And it is "almost"  Captain.

Flyer

[lordmonar]

If you chop a captains bar you end up with one bar. Silver. A First Lieutenant. Isn't Mitchell=2nd Lt? Make him a First Lt, since it is the Squadron commander's  prerogative. Does not go higher than Squadron. And it is "almost"  Captain.

Flyer

No....all advanced promotions go to NHQ

[arajca]

His squadron commander is trying to get him promoted to Captain on the theory that the COP is/was the equivalent of today's Spaatz.  Any thoughts?

Contact Member Services at National and ask.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Lord-

From 35-5

g. First and Second Lieutenant.  The squadron commander is the promoting authority
for all members assigned to his or her unit for all promotions except professional appointment
promotions.  The wing commander is the approving authority for all professional appointment
and squadron commander promotions.

After the squadron commander approves this, it goes to National. Our squadron has processed several former cadets with Mitchell this way. Not one was returned by NHQ. Now, if you use a person's professional or exceptional qualifications, it has to go through Group, Wing, or even Region depending on grade. If on the other hand, you are sending a Mitchell for Lieutenant to your Wing, it is not necessary.

Flyer

[Luis R. Ramos]

MISTAKE!

[lordmonar]

Lord-

From 35-5

g. First and Second Lieutenant.  The squadron commander is the promoting authority
for all members assigned to his or her unit for all promotions except professional appointment
promotions.  The wing commander is the approving authority for all professional appointment
and squadron commander promotions.

After the squadron commander approves this, it goes to National. Our squadron has processed several former cadets with Mitchell this way. Not one was returned by NHQ. Now, if you use a person's professional or exceptional qualifications, it has to go through Group, Wing, or even Region depending on grade. If on the other hand, you are sending a Mitchell for Lieutenant to your Wing, it is not necessary.

Flyer

Yes.....but you can't do it in E-serivces...must be paper (or PDF) and it goes to NHQ....even 2d Lt.

[SarDragon]

Grumpy needs to check in on this. He's one of them olde farts with a CoP.

I do not recall that there was any advanced promotion for CoP. It was on its way out when I joined.

That said, I've got to ask - when was his last active membership? Advanced promotion for cadet awards is generally based on recent experience, and making someone a Captain, for instance, based on a 45+ year olde cadet award probably isn't the best idea.

I asked for some inputs from some folks on Facebook. Let's see what comes up.

[SarDragon]

I've gotten responses from two people who became SMs after earning the CoP, and neither of them got advanced promotions, because that was not policy at the time. Therefore, IMHO, no advanced promotion is warranted now.

[BillB]

The Cadet COP with three clasps, completion of achievement 9 would be roughly equal to the Spaatz. But there was no automatic promotion given other than 2LT due to meeting memberhip service. At that period Squadron Commanders had the authority for promotion to 2LT and just submitted a form 2 to National. (no copy to Wing required)

[PA Guy]

That was also the period when C/Lt Col and C/Col were encampment grades only.  Cadet officer promotions were regulated by the Manning Table.  Number of cadet officer slots were based on a sqdn's cadet membership.  For instance to be a C/Maj a cadet not only had to meet the training requirements their sqdn was required to have at least 50 cadets to rate a C/Maj slot.

[ol'fido]

I have understood that some squadrons were doing this long after it went away in the regs. We had a transfer in to our unit because of that.

[SarDragon]

The cutoff on the transition was September 1964.

[ol'fido]

Some units around here were still doing it nearly 20 years later. Although, I think that many of them saw the example org. tables in 20-1 and thought they were limited to those numbers.

[Nathan]

That said, I've got to ask - when was his last active membership? Advanced promotion for cadet awards is generally based on recent experience, and making someone a Captain, for instance, based on a 45+ year olde cadet award probably isn't the best

This was my thought as well. Is there a reason to be trying to promote this guy further than 2d Lt? Does he have something more he can offer as a 1st Lt or Capt?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't recognize how awesome it is to have a COP-wearer around. But he's wearing an award that I would imagine can only be worn by a number of active members in the single digits.

As for his current role in CAP, is it prudent to give him a pass on a program that is over half-a-century older than it was when he left it? There might be a lot he needs to learn of re-learn, especially if he never served as a senior member in the program.

[Storm Chaser]

It seems to me that, at most, he should only be promoted to 2d Lt based on this award. And that's only if NHQ recognizes it as a Mitchell equivalent.

First, CAPR 35-5 doesn't address this particular award as a special provision for advanced promotions. Second, promotions should not be used as a reward for past service, but as recognition of current and future contributions and increased level of responsibility. Finally, if this senior member has been out of CAP for 50 years, I don't see how his previous CAP experience as a cadet would be relevant in today's CAP (no disrespect intended).

The appropriate recognition for having earned the COP award as a cadet is to be able to wear the ribbon/medal with his CAP uniform.

[a2capt]

The thing is, you still have to do all the Level I stuff. This is going to save you about 3 months. Maybe.

You can still wear the ribbon otherwise.

[SarDragon]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't recognize how awesome it is to have a COP-wearer around. But he's wearing an award that I would imagine can only be worn by a number of active members in the single digits.

Actually, there are more than you think. Most of the ones i know are in their mid-to-late 60s. I know two in the same unit here in CAWG.

[Storm Chaser]

The reason we have accelerated promotions for former cadets who have earned their Mitchell, Earhart or Spaatz Awards is because CAP recognizes that these cadets' previous experience and accomplishments may translate into future contributions and staff and leadership roles in CAP. I personally have no problem with accelerated promotions, but feel that often these are applied as some sort of reward for past experience and accomplishments and not as an indication of future contributions to the organization. Before someone is promoted, the question must be asked about whether this member is ready for increased responsibilities or not. There has to be some benefit to the organization.

[CAP_truth]

As a member who received a CoP 1964 and went ahead and got to my Earhart but did not get to my Spaatz. A member who recieved a CoP went as far as they could in the cadet program. There were option  list items that you could do like ROA, ES 101, observer training. They did not give you the same as phae 3 or 4 of the cadet program after 1964. I would say welcome back and inform the current members of the CAP history we went thru as cadets.  :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Eclipse]

The reason we have accelerated promotions for former cadets who have earned their Mitchell, Earhart or Spaatz Awards is because CAP recognizes that these cadets' previous experience and accomplishments may translate into future contributions and staff and leadership roles in CAP. I personally have no problem with accelerated promotions, but feel that often these are applied as some sort of reward for past experience and accomplishments and not as an indication of future contributions to the organization. Before someone is promoted, the question must be asked about whether this member is ready for increased responsibilities or not. There has to be some benefit to the organization.

+1 I was not in favor of awarding the advanced PD that we do now to cadets, and aren't all that excited about Captain for Spaatz, either.

The vast majority of cadets, even those who reach Spaatz, are followers and partakers of the Cadet Program, not running it in the adult sense.
Further, few, if any, even the Spaatzen, have a clue what it takes to run a unit, or even the CP, and suffer for the assumptions (by others and themselves) for it.

I'd be much more comfortable with the requirement that advanced promotions for >ALL< members be held off for a calendar year of membership after they
have proven their commitment and involvement.

We get far too many cadets who transition to senior, receive their advanced promotion, go to college and come back 4-5+ years later clueless but wearing
grade that says they should know how things work.  Further to this, especially with the Spaatz cadets, since they were considered to be "kind of a big deal"
when they left, many seniors view them as a program savior, which is far from what any one person is.

At a minimum, advanced grade or not, they should be required to complete the PD like every one else.  No one should be getting waivers of any kind for
CAP PD classes, since there is nothing akin to them in any other organization, and that includes the whips we're giving seniors for NCO academies, etc.

[BillB]

CAP_Truth.....Not true there was nothing past the Cadet COP. There were three additional achievements (7,8 and 9) past the COP. For each achievement you got a clasp for the CAP ribbon.

[SarDragon]

I think what he's saying is that there was no milestone award past the CoP, just the additional achievements.