Should every cadet that joins be routed to an ENCAMPMENT?

[Major Carrales]

As many of us know, many cadets that join do so for many reasons.  Somw do it because they want to be in a local program that gives them what CAP gives all cadets.  A good number may live up to the cadet oath, but have no desire to attend an encampment.

Should a squadron be a pipeline for cadets to go to an encampment?  Should that be the primary goal? What about cadets on such a pipeline that are "not ready" in character or desire, should they be made to go?

I am soliciting opinions with no prior decision or opinion on the subject.  This way also be moved to CADET PROGRAMS threads, however I feel this is systemic.  Many times, especially in Texas, the encampment is a great distance away from home.  I need to know what the rest of the nation does about this...do you send a 12 year-old away from home for the first time "ready of not?"

[Stonewall]

do you send a 12 year-old away from home for the first time "ready of not?"

Short answer: most of the time, yes.

If I feel that a cadet is absolutely not ready for encampment for whatever reason, then I'd likely suggest they wait a year.  But encampment is like going to the gym to work out.  While you may not feel like going, you never regret actually going once you're done.

Right now I've got a new cadet, not even out of T-Flight.  Our group is having an Airman's Academy next month to help indoctrinate new cadets into the program.  It is a Friday night through Sunday afternoon activity.  This is a perfect opportunity for a cadet to hone what they've learned in T-Flight in a good 48 hour period; almost a mini-encampment.  I think he's 13 years old, and his father asked if I would try to encourage him to attend because he's reluctant to be away from home for the first time.  This kid NEEDS to do this weekend event, or he'll never come out of his shell in time for encampment this summer.  He's already saying he's not going to encampment because it's going to be too hard and he won't know anyone.  So yeah, while HE doesn't think he's ready, he NEEDS to go.

I say, get encampment out of the way ASAP.  For many cadets, it can change their lives.  It's still one of my fondest memories of 26 years in the program.

[jimmydeanno]

As many of us know, many cadets that join do so for many reasons.  Somw do it because they want to be in a local program that gives them what CAP gives all cadets.  A good number may live up to the cadet oath, but have no desire to attend an encampment.

Should a squadron be a pipeline for cadets to go to an encampment?  Should that be the primary goal? What about cadets on such a pipeline that are "not ready" in character or desire, should they be made to go?

I am soliciting opinions with no prior decision or opinion on the subject.  This way also be moved to CADET PROGRAMS threads, however I feel this is systemic.  Many times, especially in Texas, the encampment is a great distance away from home.  I need to know what the rest of the nation does about this...do you send a 12 year-old away from home for the first time "ready of not?"

The local commander is supposed to make the determination of "ready or not" based on their signature on the CAPF 31.  It is detrimental for both the cadet and the encampment to endorse someone simply because they're expected to go at some point in their CAP career.

Statistically, cadets who attend encampment are more likely to remain cadets.  There is a direct retention jump when compared to cadets who don't attend encampment.  We can see the same type of jump in cadets who get O-Flights early in their first year of membership.

[Eclipse]

I would say "yes" - the sooner the better.  The NSCC requires annual training and so should we.

[Major Carrales]

Thank you....I agree with most of what you have said.  I, however, don't want the situation where a cadet does to encampment and "freaks out." 

Also, does such a paradigm mean that a squadron becomes an organization who's soul purpose is to raise money for such a thing?   I can bet that becoming a "fundraising conveyor belt" would be a bad thing.  Really easy to "put the cart before the horse" raising money for endless encampments years after year and never doing anything else.  That, I have issues with. 

[Jaison009]

I think encampments are a great learning tool and part of personal growth. Some of my fondest cadet memories come from encampments. This was especially true in Alaska where squadrons did not always get to work together due to geography.  I attended my first one at 13. It gives a cadet a chance to learn about themselves in a structured yet unfamiliar environment.  I think every cadet should attend but I don't think every cadet is mature enough right out of the gate.

[lordmonar]

As many of us know, many cadets that join do so for many reasons.  Somw do it because they want to be in a local program that gives them what CAP gives all cadets.  A good number may live up to the cadet oath, but have no desire to attend an encampment.

Should a squadron be a pipeline for cadets to go to an encampment?  Should that be the primary goal? What about cadets on such a pipeline that are "not ready" in character or desire, should they be made to go?

I am soliciting opinions with no prior decision or opinion on the subject.  This way also be moved to CADET PROGRAMS threads, however I feel this is systemic.  Many times, especially in Texas, the encampment is a great distance away from home.  I need to know what the rest of the nation does about this...do you send a 12 year-old away from home for the first time "ready of not?"

Yes....IMHO we need to change our joining requirments from 12 to 11 and finished with the 6th grade.....that way we recruit right at the end of school and then send them to encampment that summer.

Ecampment can be refocused on the basics.

[jimmydeanno]

Thank you....I agree with most of what you have said.  I, however, don't want the situation where a cadet does to encampment and "freaks out."

Sometimes you can't help that a cadet freaks out.  Some cadets just snap at encampment.  Sometimes it's home issues, other times it's some sort of interaction that occurs at encampment.  Heck, sometimes you have staff cadets who decide to do stupid things on military bases, or break their hand on the wall the night before graduation.  But, you just roll with the punches and try to get them through.

Part of the learning process is pushing your boundaries and comfort zones.  If every cadet waited until they were "ready" they may never go.  It may be a bit bigger challenge than they're used to, but so is public speaking, or drilling a flight of cadets.

[SarDragon]

I wish that I had been able to attend an encampment sooner than as a 17 yo C/TSgt. I joined late as it was, at 15, and I think my CAP experience would have been significantly enhanced by earlier attendance. Attending my first year would have been great.

As for lordmonar's comment about reducing the joining age, the typical student finishes 6th grade at age 12. I finished 6th grade when I was just barely 11, and was in no way ready to go to an encampment at that point in my life.

[PHall]

Should every cadet go to Encampment? Yes, when they are ready..... 

The Squadron Commander by signing the Form 31 is certifying that the cadet is ready to go to Encampment.

Afterall, the Squadron Commander sees this kid every week and knows what their maturity level is.

But if you don't think they're ready for it, then don't send them!!! 

[Terry W.]

As a member and also parent of a Cadet I was a little reluctant for my daughter to go, mainly because I was deployed and figured with me being gone already ten months at that time that I may have been expecting a little much. She joined the program in Sep last year after turning twelve and then went to the KS wing winter encampment in Dec. If anything I figured it would have been a make or break for her in the cadet program and while I didn't want to break her I felt that if she went and enjoyed it under those circumstances then she did want to be a cadet. Needless to say like all other cadets it was a rocky start, but she loved it and is applying for a staff position this year and has progressed three times already and is working on her Wright Brothers Achievement. I couldn't be more proud.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I showed up to my first meeting 10 days short of 10 years ago. Just about a week or so before ILWG Spring Encampment. I didn't get on the books until May, and my first encampment was the following April in 2004 as a C/SSgt.

At age 14, I had already spent quite a few weekends/weeks away from home with family, friends, camps, etc. Being away from home for two weekends was no biggie. But MAN do I wish I had joined six months earlier when my friend first tried to recruit me! To think, I would have seen a Lt. Eclipse as the Encampment Commander, and would have had an extra year at the encampment...

I was ready at 13. Some are not. But Encampment isn't a scary/dangerous/abusive place. NO Cadet should have any issues besides initial butterflies in the stomach.

[ol'fido]

There is no cookie cutter cadet and no cookie cutter answer. In nearly 20 encampments, I have seen cadets who were sent too early and I have seen cadets who were 12(and short enough they had to reach UP to put their tray on the chow line to receive their food) get called up at the graduation parade to receive awards. I have also seen 16 or 17 year old cadets go home in the middle of the week for homesickness. There are in my opinion three criteria on whether a cadet will make it at encampment(JMHO):

1. Does the squadron staff feel they are ready.

2. Does the cadet feel they are ready.

3. What kind of prep have they received at their home unit for encampment. Did they show up ready for "encampment" or did they show up ready for "summer camp".

Some of the ones we have had the most problems with are those who were showing up ready for "summer camp" and those who didn't want to go but Mom and Dad said they were going whether they wanted to or not.

[NIN]

IMHO, Encampment is a huge retention item.

I joined CAP in May, my membership did not get processed until late in June, and I went to my first encampment in July without an ID card. They had the old school green-bar printout literally FedEx'd up from NHQ the day before the start of encampment so they could confirm new members on the spot.  I was on the printout (whew!)   Didn't even know my CAPID until I inprocessed encampment (my paperwork all said "PENDING" under CAPID)!  Two cutouts, no nametags. I was Cadet Green or Cadet Blue depending on which uniform we were in.

That said, I spent 28 continuous years in CAP.  Correlation? I think so.

[Eclipse]

Encampments generally show members, both cadets and senior, how CAP is supposed to look and act, that's one of the
reasons they exist - to provide that view to the membership, which then should take it back to their units and grow
that view with those who haven't been yet, and correct unit conflicts with the proper vision.

Far too many members stay cocooned within their own squadron, many times at the encouragement of their commanders, and aren't exposed to the "real"
CAP until they attend an encampment or other large-scale activity.

A lot of what is wrong with CAP could be corrected through mandating cadets and seniors attend an encampment or similar basic training-type activity
within their first 6 months of membership.

[NIN]

A lot of what is wrong with CAP could be corrected through the mandating cadets and seniors attend an encampment or similar basic training-type activity within their first 6 months of membership.

I have experience with another organization (USAC) where cadets did not become "cadets" (they were "recruits") until they completed Basic Cadet Training during Annual Training. And it worked pretty well. Was it expensive? Yes.  A two week AT for a recruit from a unit was around $400, I think, plus travel.   Officer Candidates and Officers were required to go, too. Want to get promoted from 2LT to 1LT? If you haven't been to AT since you graduated OCS, you're likely not making rank.  Thats how it worked.

I have advocated for years that with the reduction of military training sites & resources available for CAP's use due to, say,  the closure of AF bases, reduction & restriction on support dollars from CAP-USAF, etc, that CAP could get more bang for its buck by moving to a more regional training system for encampments. Instead of 45+ wings holding their individual encampments, host 8-10 regional events.  You'd get FAR more consistent training, economies of scale would help keep costs down, and you could avoid stepping on NCSAs (maybe).  Plus, you'd likely better utilize the facilities at your specific training site (ie. like Fort Dix or Fort Devens...).

Using NER as an example, with some analysis of the membership data (concentrations, "center of gravity," etc), an encampment held at Fort Devens, MA might well serve the 6 wings of New England (VT, NH, ME, MA, CT & RI) where the furthest a cadet might have to travel is 3-4 hrs in a car from northern Maine or the far, far, SW corner of CT.  Likewise, an encampment held at Fort Dix, with its proximity to McGuire, could serve the ENTIRE NER if a little airlift support was available for cadets from Western NY & PA (say, a Herk from Pittsburg flying to Buffalo and then stopping at, say, Syracuse or Utica to get people) and Northern New England (Burlington, Bangor, Pease).

Should EVERY cadet go in their first year? Maybe not EVERY cadet.   There are surely some 12 year olds who might not cut the mustard for a year or more.  I was 14 when I went, so I had a little cushion. I could have gone the year before with no issue, though.

[Major Carrales]

Now, for some focus on another portion of my question. 

Should a Cadet Squadron become a PIPELINE for getting cadets to encampment?

By that I mean should 90 plus percent of squadron activities be for fundraising and gearing up cadets for only that purpose?  I can see this happening if certain mandates alluded to above were made so.  I can also see a loss of motivation and phrases like "All we do is RAISE MONEY" "Can't we do ES stuff like the DOWNTHEROAD Composite Squadron" and "This @#$%#$, I got better things to do than sell popcorn or wash cars every weekend, I thought I joined a Cadet Program."

Of this, I have developed an opinion...but I need it refined, please continue.

[Eclipse]

Should EVERY cadet go in their first year? Maybe not EVERY cadet.   There are surely some 12 year olds who might not cut the mustard for a year or more.  I was 14 when I went, so I had a little cushion. I could have gone the year before with no issue, though.

What's sad is the tissue paper kids we're creating these days.  I was discussing this with my successor this week - he's got parents of 14 years olds concerned about whether they are "ready" - and this
is for a weekend encampment, not even a whole week in a chunk!

My #1 is 11 and just crossed-over to Boy Scouts.  He's jazzed about summer camp, and has already done a multi-night over nighter retreat with his school (at 10).

We need to land the helicopters and get kids to put down the screens and get into the real world.

Back on track - I think a regional approach might be a good idea, certainly should be considered, but there are some scale issues that will be a problem for larger regions.  Even military
bases have finite resources and there are some realities about how well you can move large groups.    The average encampment of 100-200 cadets (plus 50+ staff) is manageable, but above that
things start to potentially get very difficult to manage, and a lot of bases wouldn't have the ability to support those numbers for a transient group.

For smaller wings and regions, it might be a better solution - one encampment of 150 is probably better then 30 that have 50, and up in NER, the wing-to-wing travel time is probably the
same as within the larger states.

[Eclipse]

Should a Cadet Squadron become a PIPELINE for getting cadets to encampment?

No.  That's not their role.

Encampments are important, but should not be the focus of a unit, they are a once-a-year type activity and there's a lot more to CAP then the baseline of an encampment.

I think encampments should be treated like SAREx - you get your training at home, and then show your abilities at encampment.

[NIN]

For smaller wings and regions, it might be a better solution - one encampment of 150 is probably better then 30 that have 50, and up in NER, the wing-to-wing travel time is probably the same as within the larger states.

Yeah, those regions (ie. PACR) might have two or three, even.

Example: GLR has two USAF/ANG training sites (Volk Field & Alpena) that are setup to accommodate entire units deploying to them.  There are several other sites like this (Gulfport was one, not sure if it still is, and Savannah) around the country.  Plus there are places where you have USAR/ARNG facilities near an AF Base (Dix/McGuire is a good example) if billeting becomes an issue.

I think the larger issue in moving to that model is overcoming the parochial inertia that exists in wings who believe that their model is the "One True Way™" of encampment, and that anything else is just Brand X.

I have said before: "If thats the way you feel, then bring your A Game to the table and contribute. But don't sit there and act like your way is the only way."  15+ years ago there was supposed to be a nationwide Encampment Training Manual published (which is part of the reason most of the "tactical" information for encampment was ripped out of CAPR 50-16/52-16) that incorporated a lot of the "best practices" from around the country.   But there were some wings/wing commanders who put the kibosh on the whole thing because it would have required them to admit/accept that while their program was good, maybe, just maybe there was a best-practice from somewhere else that was good, too.

[Private Investigator]

It really depends on the Cadet. 12 or 16 Basic or C/CMSgt.

If a Cadet joined last month  he should not be going to encampment this month. On the other hand a Cadet should not wait until he is a C/CMSgt to go either. I have seen that happen before.

[Ned]

I've commanded a region encampment or two in my time.  The issues are exactly as others have noted - finding DoD facilities with support for 2-300 transients is not an insignificant task.  But just as important as finding a facility is finding a facility that will not bump you a month out because a higher priority unit wants the facility.  (Happened to me multiple times.)

But there are significant travel costs associated with encampments outside your wing.  It is hard enough to get Mom and Dad to drive an hour or two with a minivan full of cadets, but their ability to drive 3-4 (or more!) hours one way is likely a severly limiting factor.  And again, pity the large regions where a regional encampment could easily be a thousand miles away, and often not particularly close to a major airport.

And let me add a final consideration - as a region DCP I felt it was important for wings to have a viable encampment program if for no other reason than "having an encampment" is an extremely perishable skillset in the CP.  If a wing goes without an encampment for a year or two, we lose a lot of the critical senior member expertise.  In smaller wings the depth of the senior member encampment bench is pretty shallow, and with normal turnover could easily hit the point of no return in just a couple of years.

Like schools, the best encampments are local.  I agree with many here that there is probably a minimum size for an effective encampment (50-75 or so), but logistics and transportation are so very much easier within a wing.

And as to the original question, I believe that we can do a better job of creating an "encampment expectation"in CP -- the expectation that every cadet (and CP officer) will go to encampment early in their careers and make the cadets eager to apply for staff in the out years.  But I also agree that the point of encampment is to support the local units where 90 - 95% of our magic occurs on Tuesday nights and the local weekend activities.

Ned Lee
Encampment Enthusiast

[Major Carrales]

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

[Eclipse]

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

I don't see any reason why they can't, assuming available facilities, demographics that support the activity, and available staff, but saying it's possible doesn't materialize
any of those resources.

Sparky, I know your area has serious issues of time, space, and money, so wings like Texas probably need to be treated "special", and its disappointing to think
that no one from your Region of Wing is considering these issues - driving distance is something that we consider every year when turning down applicants, so the
inverse should be true as well.  With that said, in my wing 5-6 hours is not unusual, and more happens fairly regularly.

Were I TXWG DCP, I'd be looking at where people live and come from for the existing activities, and with the Wing CC's input, looking for a cutoff of reasonable driving
distance.  5-6 is probably the top of the chart I'd use.  If there were enough cadets outside that distance, and ramping a new activity didn't impact the viability
of successful programs, I'd be looking to start more encampments.  But again, having that demo information doesn't materialize resources, and as Ned mentioned, a decent encampment staff
can take years to grow organically.

[NCRblues]

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

I would follow the chain and ask the Wing DCP if this has been thought over. Maybe even volunteer to be the OIC that will assist groups in getting these things off the ground. 

[Jaison009]

We had the same issues in Alaska; however, it some places you could not get to without a boat or flying in (Kenai, Juneau (state capital), etc). This kept most of our encampments on Ft. Wainwright (Fairbanks), Eilson AFB (North Pole), Elmendorf(Anchorage), Ft. Richardson (Anchorage), or Kulis AGB (AK ANG outside Anchorage). From Fairbanks to Anchorage or vice versa is a 6 hour drive one way with only one main road connecting the interior and MatSu Valley. From Nome to either location is ungodly and no straight shot. From one of the islands it is a flight/boat in and out. As large as the state is there are only 19 squadrons. We averaged about 200 plus per encampment.

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

[PHall]

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

You don't it any worse then many of the other western states.  In CAWG an 8 hour drive to Encampment is not unusual, yet we seem to have no problems filling all the beds we have available. As a matter of fact, that's our biggest problem, not enough beds available.

[lordmonar]

On aspect of this conversation that has not been looked at is......what should the "encampment" be in the first place.

I am not talking about th 52-16 requirements per say.....but why should a cadet go to encampment?  Why should a cadet go back to encampment?

Often encampments are based aroud what I call the "basic training summer camp" model.....this is not a judgement call just a statement.

But once completed....why go back?  Some wings have an advanced flight...or second year program.....but most don't.    So the "normal" progression would be....12 year joins CAP, goes to Encampment as a basic, then maybe competes for an NCSA and then finally has the rank to apply for staff.

I would suggest that we reformat "encampment" to be more like a BSA summer camp.  (yes I know people hate that but bear with me).

Back in the 80's-90's (when I was on BSA summer camp staff), they had a program called Scout to First Class....basiclly aimed at the first time scouts and was desigend to give them all their skills and trianing they needed to complete all their badges up to First Class (Scout ranks go....Scout, Tenderfoot, 2d Class, 1st Class, Star, Life, Eagle for you not Scouters).  The rest of the summer camp was based around Eagle Required Merit Badges and outdoor Meritbadges and Experinces.  The scouts would sign up for classes like Registration Day at a University.  Picking what classes they wanted to take, when their free period was, and where they neeed to be....base on their own wants and needs, and of course availabity.

So.....image if you will....a Regional/National CAP encampment.

A centeralised facility that opens with Staff Development in Late May/Early June.  The first week of encampment starts 2nd full week of june...and runs 10 or so weeks until August....then a week of tear down and pack up.

The attendees arrive on Sunday inprocess, sign up for classes, and settle in......training begins at 0600 Monday.
For anyone under the rank of SSgt they go into the "Writght Brothers Program" aimed at getting them all the skills they need to earn the WB.
Everyone else....it is pick what you want to do.  Weapons Training, ES stuff, Flight School, Leadership, Effective Writing, Effective Speaking, Communications, First Aid, Wilderness survival, model rocketry, RC aircraft flying, Repeling, even swimming and life saving/life quarding classes.

What this does...is that it changes the cadet encampment model.

12 year old joins CAP....goest to Encampment first Summer, then again at 13 and 14......at this point they have pretty much had a chance to do everything so they now look at going back as staff or looking to the really cool stuff at the NCSAs.

If you figure a facility that could handle 200 or so attendees.......you encourage UNITS to come as a UNIT and not as individuals as we do now.  Units would bid in the winter on when they wanted to go to encampment.   Since units are going together it helps simplify transportations.  Smaller units could team up and share the costs of getting to and from encampment.

This would not prevent wings from doing their own encampents......But just looking at the numbers....we have around 25K cadets.    Allowing PRWG, AKWG, HIWG and OS units to do their own thing......with a goal of getting every cadet to encampment every year....with a stated capacity of 200 attendees and a 10 week season....we would need 13 "regional" encampment facilities across the country to support this.

Locateing them based on membership population centers....would put most of them on the east coast/central areas with CAWG/TXWG/FLWG probably haveing one each.

With regional training facilites we can use them year round for other training activities like RCLS, and senior member PD, ES academies, etc.
With regional training faclities we reduce the cost of encampment by reducing duplication of effort and reducing the overhead costs.

With regional training facilities running all summer long we help eliminate the "I can't go that week my sister is getting merried/the famly renion/my dog is getting neutered that week" problem of getting to encampment.  While we encourage units going together singletons can always make arragements to join other units going when it is more convienent.

Yes.....regionalised encaments is a long way off pipe dream and brings a lot of problems with them.....travel costs, 12 week staff commitment, purchasing and maintaining faclities.   

But their it could be done.

[Garibaldi]

I've always asked myself why don't we have a sort of basic training for new cadets? Logistically, it would be a nightmare IMO, but the benefits really outweigh the consequences. If we held a basic encampment, held off new cadets from actively being a part of CAP until they complete the one or two week camp, and returned these cadet airmen to their home units as well-disciplined, functional cadets, what would be the ultimate benefit or harm?

Seeing as how the cadet program is more closely modeled on the military paradigm than the senior program, having a one or two week basic training camp, run by cadet NCOs and officers with minimal oversight by seniors (kind of like now, come to think of it), would instill in the new cadets the proper mindset of how things should be run across the board, as far as a wing was concerned. That way, the regular encampment could focus more on the future NCOs and officers than re-training new cadets from Po-Dunk Composite who learned D&C from Gomer Pyle.

Funding, as always, would be an issue. My idea would also include giving the new cadet a basic blues uniform to wear at graduation. The cadet would be responsible for the insignia and nameplates and such. But the week would focus on how to wear the uniform properly, proper D&C, customs and courtesies, proper hair cuts, all the things that you really can't learn in a 2 hour meeting a week (cadets forget a ton of stuff in a week).

Anyway, in a perfect world this would work, I believe. Cadet academies aside, this would focus on the root of the newbie issue and develop a new crop of airmen who would then be able to learn the ropes of being an NCO at their home unit.

Ooohhh...an NCO academy....

[lordmonar]

I've always asked myself why don't we have a sort of basic training for new cadets? Logistically, it would be a nightmare IMO, but the benefits really outweigh the consequences. If we held a basic encampment, held off new cadets from actively being a part of CAP until they complete the one or two week camp, and returned these cadet airmen to their home units as well-disciplined, functional cadets, what would be the ultimate benefit or harm?

Seeing as how the cadet program is more closely modeled on the military paradigm than the senior program, having a one or two week basic training camp, run by cadet NCOs and officers with minimal oversight by seniors (kind of like now, come to think of it), would instill in the new cadets the proper mindset of how things should be run across the board, as far as a wing was concerned. That way, the regular encampment could focus more on the future NCOs and officers than re-training new cadets from Po-Dunk Composite who learned D&C from Gomer Pyle.

Funding, as always, would be an issue. My idea would also include giving the new cadet a basic blues uniform to wear at graduation. The cadet would be responsible for the insignia and nameplates and such. But the week would focus on how to wear the uniform properly, proper D&C, customs and courtesies, proper hair cuts, all the things that you really can't learn in a 2 hour meeting a week (cadets forget a ton of stuff in a week).

Anyway, in a perfect world this would work, I believe. Cadet academies aside, this would focus on the root of the newbie issue and develop a new crop of airmen who would then be able to learn the ropes of being an NCO at their home unit.

Ooohhh...an NCO academy....

If we allowed new cadets to join at 11 and finished with the 6th grade...then we could do a basic training......recruit in the end of May and get them to encampment that summer.........ties right in with my encampment as summer camp idea.

[SarDragon]

Why should a cadet go to encampment?  Why should a cadet go back to encampment?

The short answer to both Qs is leadership opportunities above and beyond those available at the squadron level.

The first year folks get to participate and interact in a larger flight than they likely have at their home unit. They learn teamwork on a larger scale.They expand their world view of CAP.

Returnees get to be in higher level leadership positions that may also not be available locally, such as flight commander of a full size flight, squadron commander, and even encampment cadet commander.

It's all about building on prior years.

[ol'fido]

That's how we do it:

1st Year- Basic Encampment
2nd Year-Advanced Training Squadron
3rd Year-Flight Staff
4th Year- Squadron Staff
5th Year-Exec Staff
6th Year-Once you hit the exec staff level, we usually have a progression from c/XO to c/DCC to c/CC. So from there may be 7-8 years of progression. Not everyone will finish this. There are only so many staff positions. But we purposely structured it so that a person who comes back to encampment every year has a good chance of advancing to the Cadet Commander slot. The cadets understand this and agree with it. We have had cadets who refused to take a staff position because it was someone else's turn for it until that person had confirmed to them that they wouldn't be able to attend. If someone of senior cadet rank comes in to the encampment without having gone through that process, they are plugged into a staff position only if there is no one else available. So there won't be any c/LtCols bumping c/1stLts out of their job.

I would say no to the idea on dropping the age to 11 or out of 6th grade. I like a hard age for membership and 12 is young enough. While there are exceptions to every rule, I have had to much experience at encampments with 13 or 14 year old c/LtCols who didn't have the maturity or experience to go with their rank or position.

[lordmonar]

I have had to much experience at encampments with 13 or 14 year old c/LtCols who didn't have the maturity or experience to go with their rank or position.

I got to call BS on that.....but I guess that is for another thread. 

[Jaison009]

I attended my first encampment just a few months after joining and was really glad I did. Within the year after that, we had an NCO leadership academy/encampment WIWAC in KY wing at Ft. Knox. It started on a Fri night and ended sunday afternoon. It was my second "encampment". I learned a lot there and continued learning.

I've always asked myself why don't we have a sort of basic training for new cadets? Logistically, it would be a nightmare IMO, but the benefits really outweigh the consequences. If we held a basic encampment, held off new cadets from actively being a part of CAP until they complete the one or two week camp, and returned these cadet airmen to their home units as well-disciplined, functional cadets, what would be the ultimate benefit or harm?

Seeing as how the cadet program is more closely modeled on the military paradigm than the senior program, having a one or two week basic training camp, run by cadet NCOs and officers with minimal oversight by seniors (kind of like now, come to think of it), would instill in the new cadets the proper mindset of how things should be run across the board, as far as a wing was concerned. That way, the regular encampment could focus more on the future NCOs and officers than re-training new cadets from Po-Dunk Composite who learned D&C from Gomer Pyle.

Funding, as always, would be an issue. My idea would also include giving the new cadet a basic blues uniform to wear at graduation. The cadet would be responsible for the insignia and nameplates and such. But the week would focus on how to wear the uniform properly, proper D&C, customs and courtesies, proper hair cuts, all the things that you really can't learn in a 2 hour meeting a week (cadets forget a ton of stuff in a week).

Anyway, in a perfect world this would work, I believe. Cadet academies aside, this would focus on the root of the newbie issue and develop a new crop of airmen who would then be able to learn the ropes of being an NCO at their home unit.

Ooohhh...an NCO academy....

[cap235629]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

[Major Carrales]

I wish encampments we not so far away for most.  Texas, for example, is a huge Wing.  9 or 10 hour drives for an encampment...it "ain't no Rhode Island."  I have always wondered how the Wing would handle a CAP RESURGENCE, where there were ten of thousands of cadets (possible if even cities of 10,000 persons suddenly got squadrons...pipe dreaming at it's best!) How would the two encampments (summer and winter) deal with 500 plus cadets each go'round.  Yikes.

I would like Texas Groups, with Wing and Region Support, to hold GROUP LEVEL encampments where one or two groups could mitigate the travel and logistical issues.

You don't it any worse then many of the other western states.  In CAWG an 8 hour drive to Encampment is not unusual, yet we seem to have no problems filling all the beds we have available. As a matter of fact, that's our biggest problem, not enough beds available.

If the idea is that "everyone goes" then it should be easier to go.  How many more people would go if there were more options?  That is the slippery-slope.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

How many encampments these days actually occur at Military Facilities?  I know we, in Texas, try to use State Facilities and the Alert Academy.  However, with base closures and security, I think those days are numbered.

I agree with the crux of your point, however, I don't see it working to a return to the Military Reservation encampment.

[jimmydeanno]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

How many encampments these days actually occur at Military Facilities?  I know we, in Texas, try to use State Facilities and the Alert Academy.  However, with base closures and security, I think those days are numbered.

I agree with the crux of your point, however, I don't see it working to a return to the Military Reservation encampment.

Quite a few. Your neighbor to the East does, for example.  Every wing I've ever been a member of does, whether it's an active duty base, guard base, or reserve center, they are on some sort of military facility.  Some wings hold them at Military Academies.

However, it seems like you're going down the "not every cadet can afford it, so if it's expected we should make it free" road.  I don't know of any summer camp of similar length that operates for as cheaply as a CAP encampment.  I went to a YMCA camp when I was 10 (20 years ago) that was $600/wk.  I see the same camp now charges $1,200 for the same time period.  Meanwhile, our CAP encampment is under $100, less than the "deposit" of similar (as similar as you can get) events.

[Major Carrales]

Sparky I admit that I have "skimmed" the replies to this question.  I do however believe that a cadet does not get a thorough cadet experience unless the cadet attends an encampment on an actual military installation and can actually interact with the "RM".  I was not a CAP cadet but was a cadet in Marine Corps JROTC and count my 2 spring breaks at MCRD Parris Island and NAB Little Creek as defining moments of my youth.  Encampment SHOULD be an experience that will breed stories 25 years later or we just aren't doing it right......

How many encampments these days actually occur at Military Facilities?  I know we, in Texas, try to use State Facilities and the Alert Academy.  However, with base closures and security, I think those days are numbered.

I agree with the crux of your point, however, I don't see it working to a return to the Military Reservation encampment.

Quite a few. Your neighbor to the East does, for example.  Every wing I've ever been a member of does, whether it's an active duty base, guard base, or reserve center, they are on some sort of military facility.  Some wings hold them at Military Academies.

However, it seems like you're going down the "not every cadet can afford it, so if it's expected we should make it free" road.  I don't know of any summer camp of similar length that operates for as cheaply as a CAP encampment.  I went to a YMCA camp when I was 10 (20 years ago) that was $600/wk.  I see the same camp now charges $1,200 for the same time period.  Meanwhile, our CAP encampment is under $100, less than the "deposit" of similar (as similar as you can get) events.

No, not free...but more accessible.  I am hoping to send some cadets to that "Eastern" state you mentioned...although I would call someone from there an EASTERNER or YANKEE. 

[Garibaldi]

I have had to much experience at encampments with 13 or 14 year old c/LtCols who didn't have the maturity or experience to go with their rank or position.

I got to call BS on that.....but I guess that is for another thread. 

Not even going to go there. I can't vouch for the actual number of 13/14 year old C/LTCs but I have had experience with a 14 yr old C/COL that would turn anyone's hair gray. Her and her mother both.

[NIN]

Not even going to go there. I can't vouch for the actual number of 13/14 year old C/LTCs but I have had experience with a 14 yr old C/COL that would turn anyone's hair gray. Her and her mother both.

The number of 14 year old C/Cols in CAP has been so low as to really be a complete anomaly.

Sorry you had to deal with that, but its the exception by a wide margin, not the rule.

[BFreemanMA]

@Garibaldi, there is such a thing as Great Start Weekend. When I was in SLS with CTWG, they coupled the SLS with their cadet's GSW. It was a neat program to look in upon from time to time. The cadets slept in the barracks a few rooms away from the SM, but I overheard a lot of excited chatter. The Helpdesk article that relates the regs and all that can be found here: http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1210/~/cap-pamphlet-52-9%3A-cadet-great-start%3A-orientation-%26-training-for-civil-air.

Granted, logistics would still be an issue, but it's an excellent idea that appeared to work well when I observed it.

[redstar1110]

If it is a Cadet who had been in the program for a long time but has not been to an encampment they should go to ALS (airman leadership school) to ask themselves can they take on the challenge for a week. But if they do not go to ALS let them go to a different state encampment other than Texas because my basic encampment was awesome but for a cadet that is unsure to go, let them go to a different state because Texas encampment is rough and strait to the point, there is no time to do nothing and that goes for staff as well, you are always doing something. To your question if a cadet should go to encampment as soon as possible, no send them to ALS first then encampment, if they choose to go.   

[lordmonar]

What is ALS?

I know what it is....but that brings up another aspect of this discussion.

The differences between on wing's encampment and the next is sometimes night and day.

TX has a rough and tough encampment where ALS is important to be successful....but NV's encampment is not so tough and CAWG's is something else agian.

I look at 52-16 requirments for encampment and then look at what actaually happens at encampment and people saying "this is really rough" and 12 yearlds don't fair weill........I wonder if our "concept" of what an encampment should be.....and what the regs say it must be........and what is really good for the program are not quite in alignment.

If we make them rough and tough like TX wing where ALS is highly suggested.......should not all 50+ encampments be more or less the same?  I know there will be some differences due to available facliites and such but the core standards.....the hospitol corners, dorm insptections, importance of honor flight, the memorisation work.......i.e. the core what is being taught....and the reason for teaching them should all be the same.

[Eclipse]

Encampments should not be "rough and tough", nor significantly different between wings.

Hopefully the new curriculum will go a long way towards fixing that.

[ol'fido]

If it is a Cadet who had been in the program for a long time but has not been to an encampment they should go to ALS (airman leadership school) to ask themselves can they take on the challenge for a week. But if they do not go to ALS let them go to a different state encampment other than Texas because my basic encampment was awesome but for a cadet that is unsure to go, let them go to a different state because Texas encampment is rough and strait to the point, there is no time to do nothing and that goes for staff as well, you are always doing something. To your question if a cadet should go to encampment as soon as possible, no send them to ALS first then encampment, if they choose to go.

When we say that 11 or 12 year olds may not be ready for encampment, we are talking about things like sleeping in a room with other people, being away from parents and siblings and with mostly strangers you are relying on to feed you and care for you, not being able to do those things or have those comfort items that the cadet may be used to having around, etc. These things are hard enough for these youngest cadets and then we add the inspections, time crunches, radically altered schedules, and structured environment. The activity doesn't need to be "rough and tough" (which it shouldn't) to be overly stressful for them. There will always be the 11 or 12 year old cadets who can handle these things easily, but as a general rule they are more likely to have "homesickness" problems than older cadets who have started the "sleep over" and PE shower period of their development.

[Майор Хаткевич]

PE shower? What's that?

[PHall]

TX has a rough and tough encampment where ALS is important to be successful....but NV's encampment is not so tough and CAWG's is something else agian.

And you know this how? Since you have never been to a CAWG or even a CAWG/NVWG Joint Encampment.

[ol'fido]

PE shower? What's that?

Ah, sheltered youth.

[Майор Хаткевич]

PE shower? What's that?

Ah, sheltered youth.

We have them. They dont get used for PE.

[Slim]

TX has a rough and tough encampment where ALS is important to be successful....but NV's encampment is not so tough and CAWG's is something else agian.

And you know this how? Since you have never been to a CAWG or even a CAWG/NVWG Joint Encampment.

Easy, Phil.  I don't think Pat's passing any judgement on the quality of CAWG encampment when compared to anyone else's, just that it's different.  I've never been to an encampment outside of MIWG/GLR either, but after ten years of listening to you guys talk about your encampment, or NYWG talk about theirs, or INWG, or anyone else's, I know that there's differences.

While the curriculum and course of instruction may be the same for everyone, no two encampments will look and feel the same.  The end result is going to be the same, but how we get there is probably different.

I've attended and staffed encampments on an ANG CRTC, an Army Guard training site, and two different AD AF bases (one being one of the biggest bases in the country, and the other an about to be closed B-52 base).  At each of those facilities, our core curriculum was always the same, but the advantages and disadvantages of the various facilities (lodging, meals, extracurriculars, etc) made each activity fairly unique.  For that matter, there has been so much modernization at the CRTC in Alpena in terms of lodging, facilities, operations spaces, and classrooms that encampments now aren't quite the same as they once were, and we're always finding something new or different to adapt to.

I'm sure you'll agree that an encampment at Pendleton is different than one at SLO, or one at Vandy, or Beale, or anywhere else you guys have been out there.  Not better or worse, but different.

[lordmonar]

TX has a rough and tough encampment where ALS is important to be successful....but NV's encampment is not so tough and CAWG's is something else agian.

And you know this how? Since you have never been to a CAWG or even a CAWG/NVWG Joint Encampment.

No you are right......but I have had to correct the instruction my cadets have received from both the CAWG and the Join CAWG/NVWG and the NVWG encampments........

Like Slim said.....I was not passing judgement only saying that not all encampments are the same.

[PHall]

TX has a rough and tough encampment where ALS is important to be successful....but NV's encampment is not so tough and CAWG's is something else agian.

And you know this how? Since you have never been to a CAWG or even a CAWG/NVWG Joint Encampment.

No you are right......but I have had to correct the instruction my cadets have received from both the CAWG and the Join CAWG/NVWG and the NVWG encampments........

Like Slim said.....I was not passing judgement only saying that not all encampments are the same.

So what instruction do you have to correct???  Drill is taught directly from AFI 36-2203 and the 39-1 is the 39-1. So enlighten me here.
Can't fix problems if we don't know about them.