Group/Squadron/Flight Commander Term Limits

[Luis R. Ramos]

I know, I also support to have "USAF Auxiliary" on everything we were told to take it off. I added it to my earlier message because I just did not know what else to add.

My earlier message was a little bit of sarcasm, as I realize that petitions are not the way to make changes.

Can you imagine the military?

"Sergeant, you have to patrol that area at irregular intervals."

The Sergeant prefers to patrol at regular intervals so he starts "A Petition Not To Patrol Areas at Irregular Intervals." Please sign my petition... 

Flyer

[Eclipse]

For those who haven't seen this yet.

https://www.change.org/petitions/civil-air-patrol-stop-rule-mandating-squadron-commanders-step-down-after-4-years-of-service?utm_campaign=url_share_before_sign&utm_medium=url_share&utm_source=share_petition&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=url_share&utm_campaign=url_share_before_sign

There is so much wrong with that petition - Grammar, terminology, presupposes the issue only involves cadets.

Does anyone understand how the world actually "works" anymore?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Eclipse-

No, there is so much "instant gratification" and "dumbing down" that what we knew, is gone!



"Common sense?" It is the least common of everything...



Flyer

[a2capt]

Can someone edit that post with the URL?
Either nuke everything from the question mark onward, or put the whole thing into a text descriptor like "This Change.org Link"instead.

The stuff passed the question mark is not needed, it screws up the formatting for this whole thread.

[Cool Mace]

No, there is so much "instant gratification" and "dumbing down" that what we knew, is gone!

This is a sad fact. Many people today think the whole world is Burger King, where they can have it their way.

Although there are a few out there who do not like the change. I believe a vast majority support it.
It will also pressure CC's to develop the seniors below them, as it should be done.

[Майор Хаткевич]

That's the point of the change. If you can't find someone to replace you in four years (and advise after the term), then how good are you

[PHall]

We've had term limits in Pacific Region for over 10 years now.
It's simply not an issue...

[blinky]

Here is an easier link to that same petition http://tinyurl.com/capregpetition - and I don't agree that if you can't get it done through the chain of command you shouldn't voice your opinion.  Consider that many of the people are parents and there is a serious trust issue here.  CAP is for the most part a youth program - and all the "chain of command" talk is fine and dandy until the rubber meets the road and parents start pulling their kids out.  It's hard to lead with no followers and unfortunately CAP seems to go out of it's way to eliminate followers.

[blinky]

Can someone edit that post with the URL?
Either nuke everything from the question mark onward, or put the whole thing into a text descriptor like "This Change.org Link"instead.

The stuff passed the question mark is not needed, it screws up the formatting for this whole thread.

http://tinyurl.com/capregpetition

[Eclipse]

Here is an easier link to that same petition http://tinyurl.com/capregpetition - and I don't agree that if you can't get it done through the chain of command you shouldn't voice your opinion.  Consider that many of the people are parents and there is a serious trust issue here.  CAP is for the most part a youth program - and all the "chain of command" talk is fine and dandy until the rubber meets the road and parents start pulling their kids out.  It's hard to lead with no followers and unfortunately CAP seems to go out of it's way to eliminate followers.

So then the answer is, "No, I don't understand how CAP works..."  There are plenty of ways to voice an opinion directly, and around the chain.
Members have access, for better or worse, directly to the leadership at all levels, including NHQ.

The one thing that is sure to be easily ignored is a public petition which has no way to bet for membership, or even fundamental understanding
of the actual program.

The evidence is clear that term limits are a positive, or at least neutral, influence in the program.  Several of the largest regions have had them in place for years with no negative issues.  If you "can't be replaced" as a commander, the program has failed everyone involved.

And again, this is not an issue which only affects cadets as is insinuated in the description.

[blinky]

Here is an easier link to that same petition http://tinyurl.com/capregpetition - and I don't agree that if you can't get it done through the chain of command you shouldn't voice your opinion.  Consider that many of the people are parents and there is a serious trust issue here.  CAP is for the most part a youth program - and all the "chain of command" talk is fine and dandy until the rubber meets the road and parents start pulling their kids out.  It's hard to lead with no followers and unfortunately CAP seems to go out of it's way to eliminate followers.

So then the answer is, "No, I don't understand how CAP works..."  There are plenty of ways to voice an opinion directly, and around the chain.
Members have access, for better or worse, directly to the leadership at all levels, including NHQ.

The one thing that is sure to be easily ignored is a public petition which has no way to bet for membership, or even fundamental understanding
of the actual program.

The evidence is clear that term limits are a positive, or at least neutral, influence in the program.  Several of the largest regions have had them in place for years with no negative issues.  If you "can't be replaced" as a commander, the program has failed everyone involved.

And again, this is not an issue which only affects cadets as is insinuated in the description.

CAP is a glorified boy scouts program.  If you think otherwise go strut your uniform on any military base, try to buy something at the PX, etc.  If you want 4 year term limits on senior member squadrons then have at it - but do not delude yourself into thinking this issue isn't all about cadets.  And the Wing is exactly where a decision like this should reside - some wings can handle it some cannot.

[Eclipse]

CAP is a glorified boy scouts program.  If you think otherwise go strut your uniform on any military base, try to buy something at the PX, etc.  If you want 4 year term limits on senior member squadrons then have at it - but do not delude yourself into thinking this issue isn't all about cadets.  And the Wing is exactly where a decision like this should reside - some wings can handle it some cannot.

Well that pretty much summed up all that most of us need to know here...

Enjoy the rest of your stay at Marriott's Great America!

[JeffDG]

The evidence is clear that term limits are a positive, or at least neutral, influence in the program.  Several of the largest regions have had them in place for years with no negative issues. 

Where is this "evidence"?

If regions have no issues, that's fine...let them continue as they have been doing, but they forced their preferences upon others who did not wish these rules.

[Eclipse]

Come on, seriously?  Are you just arguing the point or really believe that?

I can certainly tell you that in my wing, it has been nothing but positive - those long term commanders were stagnating the entire situation.
Now we've got people invested in a culture of change, and those members have moved on to other jobs either in the unit or at other activities
and echelons.

CAP is quite literally >not< the BSA (which is a fine organization I am peripherally involved in).  It has a level of requirements that rivals
a full-time job, very little optional. Commanders that stagnate tend to ignore 1/2 the program, its requirements, and are a source of constant
friction in the wing.

Commanders who don't stagnate, owe it to others to mentor the new guys, while stepping out of the way for others to have a chance.

[JeffDG]

Come on, seriously?  Are you just arguing the point or really believe that?

I can certainly tell you that in my wing, it has been nothing but positive - those long term commanders were stagnating the entire situation.
Now we've got people invested in a culture of change, and those members have moved on to other jobs either in the unit or at other activities
and echelons.

CAP is quite literally >not< the BSA (which is a fine organization I am peripherally involved in).  It has a level of requirements that rivals
a full-time job, very little optional. Commanders that stagnate tend to ignore 1/2 the program, its requirements, and are a source of constant
friction in the wing.

Commanders who don't stagnate, owe it to others to mentor the new guys, while stepping out of the way for others to have a chance.

Anecdote <> Evidence.

So, you're saying that "Commander" is a full time job...but when you get a good one, who does a great job, keeps up with the program and devotes that level of time to it, you should replace him just because he's held the job for a while.

If it works for your wing, FANTASTIC...keep doing what works in your wing.

[blinky]

Come on, seriously?  Are you just arguing the point or really believe that?

I can certainly tell you that in my wing, it has been nothing but positive - those long term commanders were stagnating the entire situation.
Now we've got people invested in a culture of change, and those members have moved on to other jobs either in the unit or at other activities
and echelons.

CAP is quite literally >not< the BSA (which is a fine organization I am peripherally involved in).  It has a level of requirements that rivals
a full-time job, very little optional. Commanders that stagnate tend to ignore 1/2 the program, its requirements, and are a source of constant
friction in the wing.

Commanders who don't stagnate, owe it to others to mentor the new guys, while stepping out of the way for others to have a chance.

So - being that CAP is primarily a youth organization with a small cadre of planes and pilots - I think the comparison to BSA is pretty apt here.  BSA has 3.7 million members and CAP has 60k.  Just to put that in terms you might understand Eclipse - if CAP and BSA were both cadet squadrons - the CAP squadron would have 10 cadets and the BSA squadron would have 500 cadets.  So - since you are satisfied being from a squadron with 10 cadets - then more power to ya son.  You probably weren't born then - but back in the 70's BSA and CAP were considered on par with each other and there was healthy competition between them for youth.  Over the last 40 years BSA pretty much blew CAP out of the water in terms of growth and programs while CAP has stagnated.  BSA didn't bother to create this great new rule that throws out scout masters every 4 years.  You know why?  Because only an idiot would make that rule in an all volunteer organization.

[Eclipse]

So, you're saying that "Commander" is a full time job...but when you get a good one, who does a great job, keeps up with the program and devotes that level of time to it, you should replace him just because he's held the job for a while.

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying - for starters, where do the people for the higher echelons come from?  Those >not< capable of being a good commander?  What we need are the good CC's moving up and around, instead of stagnating themselves, their people, and the rest of the program.

And 4 years is hardly "a while" in the sense you're using it.  Most Commanders, especially the good ones, are more then ready to move out, up, or around after 4 years.  Those that aren't are either not running a full program, or are the wholesale exception.

I loved my time as a Commander, hated to leave, and hope to get the chance again, however the bottom line is that it was best for me, my people, and CAP, because I had trained my replacements.  Now we've got a fair number of people who served under me in commands of their own, and / or
running large activities and other areas of positive influence in the wing.

If I don't leave, I'm not encouraging others to leave / grow either (because I want them to hang around).

Bad for all around.

[Eclipse]

So - being that CAP is primarily a youth organization with a small cadre of planes and pilots - I think the comparison to BSA is pretty apt here.  BSA has 3.7 million members and CAP has 60k.  Just to put that in terms you might understand Eclipse - if CAP and BSA were both cadet squadrons - the CAP squadron would have 10 cadets and the BSA squadron would have 500 cadets.  So - since you are satisfied being from a squadron with 10 cadets - then more power to ya son.  You probably weren't born then - but back in the 70's BSA and CAP were considered on par with each other and there was healthy competition between them for youth.  Over the last 40 years BSA pretty much blew CAP out of the water in terms of growth and programs while CAP has stagnated.  BSA didn't bother to create this great new rule that throws out scout masters every 4 years.  You know why?  Because only an idiot would make that rule in an all volunteer organization.

Then here's a suggestion.

Have your cadets join the BSA and support that worthwhile organization.

At this point you're just trolling, and worse, don't really have any idea what you're even talking about.

[blinky]

So - being that CAP is primarily a youth organization with a small cadre of planes and pilots - I think the comparison to BSA is pretty apt here.  BSA has 3.7 million members and CAP has 60k.  Just to put that in terms you might understand Eclipse - if CAP and BSA were both cadet squadrons - the CAP squadron would have 10 cadets and the BSA squadron would have 500 cadets.  So - since you are satisfied being from a squadron with 10 cadets - then more power to ya son.  You probably weren't born then - but back in the 70's BSA and CAP were considered on par with each other and there was healthy competition between them for youth.  Over the last 40 years BSA pretty much blew CAP out of the water in terms of growth and programs while CAP has stagnated.  BSA didn't bother to create this great new rule that throws out scout masters every 4 years.  You know why?  Because only an idiot would make that rule in an all volunteer organization.

Then here's a suggestion.

Have your cadets join the BSA and support that worthwhile organization.

At this point you're just trolling, and worse, don't really have any idea what you're even talking about.

Lol - trolling.  Okee dokee pot - kettle here.  But you didn't answer my other question - are you aware that the BOG doesn't agree with the National Commander on this?

[Eclipse]

But you didn't answer my other question - are you aware that the BOG doesn't agree with the National Commander on this?

No.  All we have is your assertion, and you have ignored 3 requests by me, and one by Ned (who, BTW is the Vice Chair of the BOG) as to evidence of
this assertion.